Today is Muhammad Ali's 65th birthday. The event has been given very extensive coverage in the national press here in Britain and on the BBC and other national stations. Here he always was a hero. He long had more support here than he had in the USA.

What's happened to his image? Back in the '60s we got the impression that to many Americans he was a big N-word, the pawn of others, who was a traitor to his country . Now we get the impression that he is seen as a great American humanitarian, a great ambassador, sadly stricken with Parkinson's, a man who could do and never did wrong When was it that his image changed over there ?

And does anyone think that he was overrated as a boxer? (I think he was the best heavyweight I ever saw, but I only remember them as far back as 1953 )People forget what a revolutionary he was. Before and since the typical champ was pretty immobile but he was a big man with startling reflexes who moved like a featherweight.We seem to have suffered a relapse. The likes of Klitshcko are in the old mould but bigger.

Fred-

America is a VERY forgiving country (perhaps TOO forgiving at times)--and Ali kept his name in the news all the time..A self-promoter, he had IMMENSE boxing skills, too, and America came to accept him as they do MANY athletes to this day--REGARDLESS of their behaviors, criminal records, etc. Happy b'day, Champ; he was fun to watch..

I've seen films of every heavyweight champion (all who had film available) prior to Ali. No one before or since was a better fighter. The Klitshko brothers and Lennox Lewis may have given Ali problems; all three had a big size advantage, and all three were excellent boxers with pretty good power. But none of the three showed Ali's remarkable reflexes, movement, and unparaslled ability to think in the ring.

A capsulized list of reasons why Ali beats the men before him who were once regarded as the best -

Dempsy - too light (<190), too susceptable to being outboxed [Think the Tunney fight, the only time Dempsy faced a real boxer rather than a puncher) Main KO power was result of the rules then rather than true power.

Louis - Too slow, inability to think and change tactics in the ring, no long range power (All his formidable power was in short punches.) There was a saying that they (his opponents) "never made Louis look bad twice." Some of them shouldn't have made Louis look bad the first time, but they fought in unorthodox styles, and Louis couldn't adjust in the ring. An old, washed-up Max Schmeling noticed that Louis dropped his left after each jab, and simply countered with an overhand right every time Louis jabbed. None of the punches were hard, but most landed. Louis' corner knew what Schmeling was doing, and begged Louis to keep his left up when bringing it back in. (A basic in boxing was "Keep your left up" until Ali showed that, if you had incredible reflexes, it didn't matter, but until Ali, no one had those reflexes.) The result was that the 27-0 Louis became the 27-1 Louis. But Louis couldn't change in the ring; he could only change his style with hours and hours of sparring. Remember that Louis was losing the fight against Billy Conn, a lightheavyweight, until Conn tried to go for the KO rather than being satisfied with the win (that he needed to win only one of the last three rounds to get). Louis was also too light (best weight about 198) and a couple of inches shorter than Ali.

Marciano - Marciano never fought anyone as large as Ali. Ali never fought nyone as small as Marciano. Marciano cut rather easily; Ali cut his opponents often.Marciano's two toughest fights were against over-the-hull fighters in their 30s, Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott. Both were much better boxers than Marciano, and both gave him boxing lessons until they ran out of gas (admitted that Marciano's power took much out of them). Charles was the fastest man Marciano ever fought, and Marciano had a great deal of problems with him because of that. (In fact, had one of their fights been held under rules later adopted, Marciano loses when his nose is split with a 1"+ long cut. After about 1964, a ref would have stopped the fight immediately. As it was. Marciano was warned that he had one more round befor eit would have been stopped on the basis of that cut.) Charles was not nearly as fast as Ali, nor did he have Ali's power or much longer reach. (Ali's reach was 82", Marciano's 68".) Walcott was almost 39 when he fought Marciano. Another thing to remember is that it took Marciano 9 rounds to tke out the 43 year-old Archie Moore, a lightheavyweight, who had Marciano on the canvas in the 2nd. Moore was down at least 5 times in that fight, raising some doubt about Marciano's power.

Ali overrated? Hardly.

Anyone remember the computer-based match between Ali and Marciano which then had the two "acting" it out in the ring? The computer gave it to Marciano; many didn't agree with that result.

"What's happened to his image? Back in the '60s we got the impression that to many Americans he was a big N-word, the pawn of others, who was a traitor to his country . Now we get the impression that he is seen as a great American humanitarian, a great ambassador, sadly stricken with Parkinson's, a man who could do and never did wrong Smile When was it that his image changed over there ?"

For many of us, he was even more of a hero for standing up for his rights, for not taking the easy way out, and, to be honest, for taking on the establishment at all, let alone winning. Time proved Ali right; he won a 7-0 decision in the Supreme Court, and it wasn't too long before most Americans realized that we didn't have any business being in the middle of another country's civil war. (Boy, does THAT sound familiar!) Remember that it was Ali who pointed out that "No VietCong ever called me N*****." What Ali has done since his boxing career ended added to his stature. He was in life what he wasn't in boxing; he was there. He was there with money, he was there with words, he was there with his mere presence. He is known in every corner of the world as a man who stood up for what is right, and refused to back down. He far transcended boxing, even sport itself. He was loved by our allies and by our enemies; by Christians, by Jews, by Muslims, by Hindu, Buddhists, atheists and animists. The US didn't forgive Ali, it caught up with him, at least in some ways.

"...a man who could do and never did wrong..."

Ali had his faults, and he never denied them, although he did, like almost all in the public eye, believe that his private life was not grist for the media mill. He was unfaithful to his first three wives, he was not the ideal father to all his children, he was unnecessarily cruel to a few fellow boxers. (He gets some slack here. The three belittle his religious conversion, and onme of the three just didn't understand that most of the venom coming from Ali was publicity hype to keep both of them in the headlines.)

I remember, JR. Remember the time, too. There was no way Ali would have beaten Marciano in a computer match in 1969. A computer is only as good as its program. The NCR 315 was fed the results of a poll of 250 boxing writers. Popularity, or lack thereof, certainly played a part. The previous heavyweight computerized "tournament" had Ali losing to Jim Jeffries. GIGO

(If an athlete's popularity isn't part of how good he is perceived, why is Enos Slaughter in the Hall of Fame?)

quote:

The US didn't forgive Ali, it caught up with him, at least in some ways.

Well said, DG! Happy Birthday, Champ!

DG's analysis of Ali's boxing skills is absolutely spot on. He had a devastating jab. And he'd twist the glove on contact, which caused more than one eye to bleed. I don't think he ever got credit for the power of his punches. When he lost to Frazier, getting knocked down and having his cheek broken, what often goes unrecorded is that Smokin' Joe was in the hospital for a week afterward. And his face looked like hamburger. Ali was the greatest.

I have a picture of both Ali's face and Frazier's face immediately after the fight. Ali had a slightly swollen jaw. (I think it was his jaw that may have been broken.) and Frazier looked like he had just been worked over by a gang. Interesting, the ER doctor that looked at Ali also X-rayed his hips. The doctor said that the only time he had seen hips swollen like that was in people who were in a serious car wreck, with roll-overs. Give it a bit of thought - the hips are definitely below the belt, and are fouls, yet not once was Frazier officially warned, let alone have a round taken away.

That was not the first time that Ali got repeatedly fouled with no official reaction. After the Chuvalo fight, Ali's cup was dented.* Chuvalo hit him low repeatedly. The ref was asked about that after the fight and was quoted as saying that it "made for a better fight." The fight was held in Canada, and the ref, like Chuvalo, was Canadian.


*To see just how many punches it must take to cause swelling in the hips or to dent a boxers cup, take a look at the cup.





The black cup shown here is the size and style used back then.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,