What's your opinion of this? I imagine they are mostly students who probably get Visa's. Can someone explain this to me? I don't understand how this works, they come here get educated by us, then what, compete for our jobs, or what? I know I'm sounding like I'm prejudice, but what about the Americans who can't find jobs, what's going to happen in the long run. I just don't understand in a time when we are in a state of alert why we are even letting this happen, do you think it's wise to have them here in this country? They sure don't like us in their country, and are treating us like hell. Look at all the money that's going to make someone else's country better, when we are having people living on welfare here, and food stamps. What's wrong with this picture? Our healthcare system is joke, now are the foreigners getting medical card, food stamps, and such? That's our taxpayer's dollars, couldn't we take care of our own, and not somebody else's instead? ****************************************************** ****************************************************** 07-25-04, 10:08 AM DvdGStwrt Blame Politics! Blame Politics! For everything that's Wrong! Blame Politics!
07-26-04, 01:45 PM Elexina Which particular foreigners are you talking about, Soaringhorse, or is it all of them that you don't like?
07-26-04, 06:09 PM honilov I do know that some were taught how to fly here, and than destroyed our buildings. There are warnings of terrorists, that are believed to be already in America, so they are probably citizens, now. Then we have the ones that are here for a free living.
However, not all foreigners are bad. We have more and more brilliant foreign doctors here, and they are really needed. We can only hope that the right thing is being done, when allowing foreigners here.
Just like you, I don't quite understand, but as David said, it's probably all politics. Most everything else is.
07-26-04, 07:47 PM gerry My dad was a foreigner from Sicily, arriving at age 14 in 1932. My grandad from Italy came over on the boat in 1916. My wife's dad arrived from Ireland in 1940. Where are your roots? America is a salad bowl of all nationalities. Sure, some milk the welfare system for what it's worth (try living on Food stamps), others are hard working people and professionals, others take on menial jobs for low wages that no "American" wants.
07-26-04, 07:57 PM soaringhorse I'm talking about the ones that look like Iranian's, I don't know if they are but they sure look like it. Gerry, I'm indian, German, English, kind of Heinz 57, lol. Like I said, I don't want to be prejudice, but it just makes me wonder, why there are so many lately?
07-26-04, 08:19 PM honilov I know exactly the kind that you are talking about, Soaringhorse. I'm seeing more and more, too. I've seen several hanging around Walmart, usually one at a time. They could be employees though, that's watching us.
07-26-04, 09:08 PM gerry My boss is an Iranian. One of the nicest guys I've ever met. Heck, the Iranians warred with Iraq years back, and the enemy of our enemy is our friend, they say.
07-26-04, 09:27 PM DvdGStwrt Let's See America, once owned by the American Natives, now owned by ???
Who are we calling foreigner anyway?
07-27-04, 02:41 AM FredPuli Soaringhorse: Do help, please. What do Iranians look like? How do you tell them apart from any other people from the region (or anywhere else)? What marks them out? I don't think those of us who live in a country where we have muslims in vast numbers could say with any confidence "He /she is Iranian or looks like an Iranian". Do they wear some distinctive dress or have particular facial characteristics?
Once I know I can look out for them here. There are a goodly number here but without your help I can't identify them at a glance.
07-27-04, 11:27 AM honilov Fred, if you don't know how these people look, I don't see any need of anyone describing them to you. Minimum research would produce pictures.
Don't puzzle yourself about them, because just like Allstate, 'you're' probably in good hands.
There's no need for anyone to play dumb here, because you know exactly what Soaringhorse means. If you don't, then it's just not a concern of yours anyway.
07-27-04, 12:10 PM methos
quote:Originally posted by soaringhorse: What's your opinion of this? I imagine they are mostly students who probably get Visa's. Can someone explain this to me? I don't understand how this works, they come here get educated by us, then what, compete for our jobs, or what?
Our Education system is so good in part because many of the best foreign students are enrolled. It raises the bar for all, and foreign students, especially graduate students (which is where the highest concentration of foreign students are, I believe), tend to pay significantly more tuition, in my experience, than domestic students.
quote:I just don't understand in a time when we are in a state of alert why we are even letting this happen, do you think it's wise to have them here in this country? They sure don't like us in their country, and are treating us like hell.
Should we give them a test on entry to determine whether or not they like the country? Our should we stereotype anyone who looks a certain way as having the same thoughts and attitudes?
quote:Our healthcare system is joke, now are the foreigners getting medical card, food stamps, and such? That's our taxpayer's dollars, couldn't we take care of our own, and not somebody else's instead?
Few foreigners are eligible for food stamps. Basically, refugees, US military veterans, American Indians born in Canada, and legal permanent residents are. Similarly, temporary residents, including students, are not eligible for anything but emergency medicaid benefits. Foreigners working here do, however, have to pay taxes.
My only experience with an individual Iranian was a waitress at a bar/grill I frequent. She and her parents were paying a significant sum to put her through medical school, and she was paying taxes on her pay. Unless she was lying in our conversations (I certainly didn't get that impression) she loves America and would love for things in Iran to change to be closer to what she has experienced here. Foreign students educated here may help change other countries, without violence (although there have obviously been foreign students in the US who returned to their home countries with their attitudes unchanged, and people in other countries who have wanted change without having been to the US).
This message has been edited. Last edited by: methos, 07-27-04 01:52 PM
07-27-04, 12:20 PM FredPuli Honilov: I certainly don't know what Soaringhorse means. As you evidently do understand perhaps you would favour me with an explanation, pending a reply from Soaringhorse. I am not going to 'play dumb' for anybody's benefit. What is meant by Iranians or people who 'look like' Iranians ?
It could be unfair for me to guess what is meant by that or by the post generally. Others may do so.
07-27-04, 04:43 PM honilov Sorry Fred, and no problem. I think we are just looking at the same thing, but at a different angle. That is completely normal under circumstances where people see things different. Smile
07-27-04, 05:36 PM Sarai This thread makes my stomach hurt!
quote:Originally posted by soaringhorse: What's your opinion of this? I imagine they are mostly students who probably get Visa's. Can someone explain this to me? I don't understand how this works, they come here get educated by us, then what, compete for our jobs, or what? I know I'm sounding like I'm prejudice, but what about the Americans who can't find jobs, what's going to happen in the long run.
I think I must be a closet conservative when it comes to immigration. 1) I don´t think there is anything wrong with people coming to get an education in the US. They pay a lot of money to study here. Their money helps the school and the presence of people with different perspectives and backgrounds makes our education richer. 2) If they stay and compete for our jobs, good for them. If they are better than Americans are, then they will raise our game. If they aren't better, they won't be able to win the competition - and we just might raise their game. Personally, I like the idea of a place in which people succeed through merit, not nationality.
quote: Look at all the money that's going to make someone else's country better, when we are having people living on welfare here, and food stamps.
The money that goes toward a foreigner coming to the US to study at an American univerisity comes from that foreigner, to the best of my knowledge. I´m not opposed to welfare or other programs designed to help the poor, but the people on welfare and foodstamps are taking your tax dollars, not the foreigners studying at our univeristies. Your taxes are helping Americans.
quote: What's wrong with this picture? Our healthcare system is joke, now are the foreigners getting medical card, food stamps, and such?
No.
07-27-04, 07:32 PM Jelp01 In my area, rural Eastern Washington, we have had trouble with an influx of foreigners. They come in, complaining about all the noise, smell, etc, of farming practices that have occurred here for over 100 years, telling the farmers THEY have to change to suit the foreigners. Sure wish those Californians would move back to California where they belong! Big Grin Razz
Seriously, though, with regards to immigration: If they have the money to be able to study in the U.S., so be it. It makes for better competition for all of us. What did bug me, and I think the rules have changed for the better, was what was occurring in Spokane. The city had a number of immigrants from Russia, right around the time of the collapse of the Soviet empire, and they wanted to work. But they were told they couldn't. For a period of a year, I believe it was, they HAD to go on welfare, food stamps, etc., after they had immigrated, before they could hold a job. And they hated that. Thankfully, now, that isn't the case. But it certainly was a controversial rule when it was in place.
07-27-04, 10:02 PM PerfectPeach I dont have a problem with foreigners. Most of them are here for a good reason. (School and jobs) Its important for America to import foreign brains because America is producing fewer mathmatical and scientific brains.
The only problem with foreigners is when they can't speak English. Nothing irritates me more than this!! In the next 50 years, no one will know how to speak English in Texas!
07-28-04, 03:49 AMhttp://answerpool.com/groupee_common/platform_images/blank.gif FredPuli If it's Iranians you worry about you are a bit late. There were over 1,500,000 in the US as of 1996 and only 80,000 in the UK, according to Persian World Outreach:
It's Summer now, the peak time for foreign students to visit the UK or US to study English on vacation courses.They tend to group simply because they are not confident enough to mix and , in any case, act in a group just as all youngsters do. You'll be hard pressed some days, in Cambridge, to find a youngster who is English.
Others are here for the same reason as every other immigrant; here seems better than home, the more so if there is political or social upheaval or unrest there. Students enrolled here at the University are a bonus; they or their governments pay all the fees and the colleges can charge whatever the market will bear Wink
There's nothing new in all this. The author Bill Bryson drily observed (The Making of America) that the common thread in immigration in the US, certainly from 1900, was that every generation thought that it had been excellent for America for their own immigrant parents or grandparents to come in but now thought that was enough ;they really ought to do something about all these new people coming in Big Grin Why, they could be dangerous/ a burden/ take jobs...
07-28-04, 04:06 PM honilov All foreigners here are not students that's here for an education. There are far more that's here for other reasons. A lot of them are illegal immigrants that the government know about. Many are here to try to get a government free living. I know there are Americans here that's after a free living, too, but the topic is about foreigners.
I believe, like many others, that there are terrorists over here. I believe there are a lot of good foreigners over here, too. There are a lot of Americans here that are terror-minded, as well.
By the way, who is it that America has been warned to watch out for, to see if we detect any suspicious activity? Americans or foreigners? Confused
07-28-04, 07:54 PM samantha Most of our doctors are foreigners and are great doctors..
07-29-04, 04:20 PM soaringhorse
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, I just have noticed more, and I'm sure others have too. The language barrier is definitely a problem, I can't understand them, can you? As far as the description, they have very dark skin, almost mexican looking, and jet black hair, dark eyes. There are families of them, not just students. I just noticed it usually at large gatherings, like for instance 4th of July, and also at the Cincinnati Zoo. They don't do anything wrong, and they seem to keep to themselves and well behaved. I can't say they are troublemakers, and I didn't say I didn't like them. So excuse me, for being curious, I guess it's just out of the ordinary, whatever that is Roll Eyes And you know about what curiosity does to the cat, huh? This world is big enough for us all, if we can all get along that is, right?
PS Thanks Honiluv, I think you understand my sentiments, I just am not used to our country having to be on pins and needles, so to say. I wish this war would just get behind us, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen for a long time.
07-29-04, 08:34 PM DvdGStwrt Dear God. I swear Americans fail to see the wonder of the land in which they live and can not see that we are the most blessed nation on earth. Even in this, her Darkest hour, when she is hated by so many, America is still the land where People dream to go to.
America is still thought of as the land who's streets are paved in gold - It is thought of as the best place on earth to be, the land where liberty, freedom and the pursuit of happiness is a God Given right for all men and women. America is still a place where people defect to - not away from.
America is the symbol of personal freedom and rightly holds claim as being the best nation on earth, irregardless of her faults or short comings. America was the first nation on Earth which penned a constitution that starts "We the People..." America is the First nation on Earth that takes in every single culture, nation and one can find people from everywhere else within its boundaries.
America is the land where people believe that if only they could get here their lives, their children's lives will be better than if they stay where ever they may be.
A Poet put it in gentle verse, and the symbol to many people who come here still stands and still offers her light, her promise of liberty and hope of better things.
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door." Emma Lazarus - From the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty
07-30-04, 10:26 AM Leppi This past summer I've been working in a chemical engineering department at a university, and I am one of the only Americans here, everyone is mostly Indian, Korean, Chinese, or Russian. I have spent quite some time asking them why didn't you just go to a school in your home country, aren't there good schools there? They often will say yes, but american schools are better. When they come to american schools, the schools have to improve themselves because of the intelligent students that are comming. Many of these students have later on become proffesors at the university here, and are some of the best proffesors at the university.
many of the students I see every day and work with, they are here because they want a better life and a better opportunity. Coming here is how they get the. America is called the land of opportunity and that is why they came. They don't wanna go on welfare or get food stamps or anything like that. They are here because they are motivated to succeed.
As for taking American jobs, despite the fact that they take some jobs, they also create jobs. Imagine for a moment what would happen if every single foriener would be kicked out of the country. You mentioned a lot of foriegn students in the US, right? Well, with all those students gone, imagine how many faculty members at univrsities would suddenly be out of a job. Some of the departments here, more then 75% of the students or foriegn. All the food they would of been eating will no longer be bought, all the houses and appartments they rented will no longer have a renter. And for ones that have started a business, thier employese will no longer have a Job. So while they take jobs, they also create Jobs. I guess in a way you can call it the circle of Jobs instead of the circle of Life.
But what about thier accent? It's true it can be difficult to understand what they are saying because of it. But ya know hat? no matter how hard an Indian or Korean, or Russian accent is to understand, I have even more difficulty understanding southern US accents. Now THOSE are difficult to understand. I guess understanding accents is all a matter of perspective.
07-30-04, 06:45 PM honilov I'm glad you all think that they are all nice little college students. That way, we won't have to watch out for terrorists, unless of course, they are American terrorists.
I'm sure the ones that's 40, 50, and 60, that's hanging around malls, looking suspicious are just little college students, that's having a McDonald lunch break.
07-30-04, 07:59 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by honilov: I'm glad you all think that they are all nice little college students. That way, we won't have to watch out for terrorists, unless of course, they are American terrorists.
I'm sure the ones that's 40, 50, and 60, that's hanging around malls, looking suspicious are just little college students, that's having a McDonald lunch break.
Looking suspicious? How exactly? Standing around, people watching, perhaps having an orange julius while the wife is shopping? Maybe its the color of their skin, or from whence they come? 60 year old terrorists - yeah, riiight. I can see grandpa now welding a sub machine gun, readying for the next terrible crime against humanity, maybe a suicide bomber with TNT strap to his old bony butt.
Maybe I should plaster warning signs all over my neighborhood, a Vietnamese couple moved in a few doors down, time to warn the neighborhood because we all know that they eat dogs. Better keep a very short leash on my dog.
Maybe I should make citizen's arrest every time I see my neighbor on the other side get in his car, he's Irish you see and we all know the Irish are drunks. Not only that but he might very well be part of the IRA a well known terrorist group!!!!
What about the Mexicans catty corner - better call immigration we all know that all Mexicans are wetbacks.
Let's see, maybe I should call the police when ever I see my neighbor hanging around on his front porch watching the neighborhood - he's black you see and we all know that blacks are always casing the joint to steal. Definitely must call out the swat team when his friends come over, those darn old gang bangers are up to no good.
Where do we stop? Perhaps I should watch out for those Jews, I understand that they are out to get my money. The Poles are stupid, so best better change all the words to pictures so they will understand.
Do I stop there? There are a few native americans way down the street, who is the proper authority to call to see to it that they are put back in their concentration ca-- er, I mean - reservation.
All of these people, due to the color of their skin, their religious affiliation, etc. are suspicious - right? They are all up to no good and since we have The Crypts and Bloods, and a Few Irish Drunks (let alone all of the other drunks) and we do have a few illegal immigrants and we do have some pretty stupid people, and bankers that makes us justified in racial profiling for the fun of it.
Better watch those gays too - We all know they are out to steal the children and convert them to a life style of sin and pleasure which leads directly to hell! And the Catholics (All priests are molesters you know) and the White Men - After all they must all be wife murders since it is recently in the news of a couple of white men who murdered (alleged) their wives.
Where do we stop this line of thinking?
"Got to watch out for em Iranians, they're all out to do Evil Deeds and gosh darn don't ya know they're all terrorists and they TOOK OUR JOBS!"
Pulease Sister, get a grip!
Where are the Terrorists? Since 9-11 how many terrorist events have taken place in side the United States of America?
How many? Must be a lot more than I am aware of to be ready to sell off a whole race of people because they might - MIGHT be related to a group of people who are terrorists - Nevermind the small fact that a small portion of all races, genders, sexual oreintations, age groups, religious afiliations - etc - have done strange and horrible things - that doesn't mean that ALL of us do.
But then I guess it is ok to point fingers at other races and make high and mighty claims to being superior to them or to tag them with racial stigma because a few who happen to be that race are dirty rotten to the core.
Know what I call it?
Bigotry - And David doesn't think the color of bigotry is pretty at all.
Not too cheerful here,
David
07-30-04, 09:02 PM honilov David, it's not like that at all. I think I'm just being misunderstood. It is so dang hard to know what to say anymore. I can easily see why people stop posting.
Once again (read my lips), I swear I thought that those Iraqi-looking people were the kind that we were advised to watch out for, and report any kind of suspicious activity. I should have known better than to listen to any advice from the Bush administration.
There are good and evil Blacks, good and evil Whites, and good and evil foreigners. Maybe we should always look over our shoulders, regardless.
I'm totally innocent of your accusations, and your post is much more overkill than mine.
BY the way David, throughout my time here on AP, I've always expressed how I like foreigners and love their accent. I am no hater.
07-30-04, 10:21 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by honilov: David, it's not like that at all. I think I'm just being misunderstood. It is so dang hard to know what to say anymore. I can easily see why people stop posting.
Once again (read my lips), I swear I thought that those Iraqi-looking people were the kind that we were advised to watch out for, and report any kind of suspicious activity. I should have known better than to listen to any advice from the Bush administration.
There are good and evil Blacks, good and evil Whites, and good and evil foreigners. Maybe we should always look over our shoulders, regardless.
I'm totally innocent of your accusations, and your post is much more overkill than mine.
BY the way David, throughout my time here on AP, I've always expressed how I like foreigners and love their accent. I am no hater.
Sorry I am not saying you are a bigot, I am saying that the mentality that your post pointed out that we need to look out for terrorists who look a certain way is bigoted.
Its public programing - we are being told each time a Terrorist threat is put out to look for the turban wearing terrorists - maybe not in that way, but nonetheless that is exactly how it is being read.
BTW "Pulease Sister Get a Grip" is applied to all irregardless of gender in the Gay World - it is Gay talk - I just realized that I am addressing a mixed crowd who may not speak or understand Gay.
In fact reading through my post it does look like I was picking on you. I'm sorry, that was not my intent at all. I was addressing the attitude, trying to point out how foolish it is in light of all of the other peoples and cultures that make up America. Not you specifically, I was addressing the topic as you put it forth.
I tend to have this problem of writting in a voice which is meant to be at the whole world, not one specific person. My bad.
David
07-31-04, 12:29 PM soaringhorse Sorry if I sounded like a bigot, I did not mean to be racial or judgemental. Gotta watch us "Gosh darn hillbilly's, ain't got a lick of sense, ya all!' But after this innocently asked question, which seems to have been just another example of how posts go bad, I'm outta here! See ya!
07-31-04, 01:41 PM Sarai I agree entirely with David's posts, but I also think that David will agree with me that no one should feel intimidated to ask real questions for fear of being called a bigot. We ALL are bigots in some way or another. I think it's part of human nature to be suspicious of people who aren't part of "our group," whatever that group might be. And of course the best way to open our minds and hearts is to be honest and ask real questions. Your question, Soaringhorse, was a real question that probably a lot of other people have wondered, but haven't had the guts to ask. And Honilov and Soaringhorse, from what I can tell, no one means to call YOU a bigot, just to point out that this particular IDEA you have that foreigners (or Iraqis, who our country is supposed to be fighting FOR, not AGAINST, etc.) are suspicious is bigoted.
I remember a long time ago, when I was still in school, a boy of Mexican descent was teasing me because I said something in an overly formal way, and he called me "nothing but a white girl." I said, "Since when are you black?" Then he told me that he was Mexican, which didn't faze me. I said, "So, I'm Canadian. I'm still white, and so are you!" (For the record, I'm not Canadian and he's not Mexican, but our families are). He called me ignorant and got other "Mexican" friends of his to confirm that they, in fact, are not white. I didn't believe them, which sounds silly now, but at the time, I couldn't distinguish Hispanic features from Anglo ones (I still think the distinction is pretty hazy, actually).
So THEN I went to my favorite teacher and complained, "Why won't Mexicans accept the fact that they are white?" My teacher told me that people have a right to label themselves as they wish. I said no, they don't, because no matter what I'd like to say, I could never pretend not to be white. He said there were priveledges that come with my skin color that my hispanic friends didn't have, and I said "That's because they insist on being hispanic. Why don't they just be white and be done with it?"
He then explained to me in very clear terms why that last comment showed bigotry and a total lack of respect for their hispanic heritage, and the differences between their background and mine. I felt insulted and embarrassed, and to this day I feel a little nervous about asking racially charged quesitons.
I know my teacher was right, but I also wish there were a way to show people when they are misinformed without labels like "racist" and "bigot." Unfortunately, there isn't. However, I wanted to tell anyone who feels falsely accused that no one thinks YOU are a racist or a bigot. Just that certain THOUGHTS are racist or bigotted, and we all have such thoughts. A misunderstanding needs to be called a misunderstanding, and if that misunderstanding involves bigotry, then it must be said - but don't feel that anyone thinks badly of you, personally.
One is only a bigot if he proudly embraces bigoted ideas, knowing they're bigoted. If you don't want to be a bigot but sometimes have bigoted ideas mistakenly - well, you're human.
Smile
07-31-04, 06:41 PM honilov Soaringhorse, I knew from the beginning what you were asking, and I tried hard to express my opinion without pointing to any country in particular. I actually thought you and I would be understood, in which we weren't. It was against my better judgment to say Iraqi-looking people , but I was almost forced to. Everybody know the kind that we were warned about, and I didn't think that I had to spell it out. I know exactly how you feel, and I hope your last sentence doesn't mean what it sounds like. There's an old saying that you probably have heard, that stands strong, and if you haven't, here it is:
If you're White, You're alright If you're Brown, You can stick around But if you're Black, Get way Back
08-01-04, 11:00 PM stampeding turtles As a native of Cincinnati (and now a transplant) I undertand how xenophobia and fear works concerning anybody or anything 'different' in the hinterlands/interior of the US. I now live in an area that has greater diversity and people, in general(OK, there are always some religious wackoes or rednecks everywhere!) don't have these same issues because they have been exposed to other things and people for a long time now and haven't been so isolated in the interior. Cincinnati is well known historically for it's intolerance, bigotry, and a being a hotbed of 1950's-style ultra-conservative attitudes, because people were not exposed to much diversity of people or thought! And they tend to be right wing religious....which doesn't help matters because it tends toward the scary fundamentalist type. Growing up there I was surrounded by industrial blue collar types who were invariably racist, homophobic rednecks and many of them would go to the Baptist church on the end of the street where I used to live, where they learn every Sunday that everyone else is going to hell in a hand basket.
There are people today who are working to bring greater Cincinnati into the twentieth century. Wink I understand the mayor is trying hard to repeal the hateful discriminatory anti-gay legislation there, the only one of it's kind in the country! And they are working hard on the racial tensions that erupted into violence not too long ago.
It's too bad because it's a neat city in so many ways and has great potential. Just so intolerant and socially backwards for my tastes right now.... and way too religious to be consistent with good mental health. When they get their act together, I might move back and bring my money with me. Money is something conservatives understand better than anything else. Big Grin
08-02-04, 08:52 PM CincyOnTheRoad ...which is exactly why I miss a lot of people back in Greater Cincinnati, but I don't miss the atmosphere of Greater Cincinnati.
The idiotic thoughts of Bill Cunningham, Phil Burress, Simon Leis, Joe Deters, etc. belong in the shallow grave of McCarthyism. Unless things change, I doubt I'll ever relocate there.
08-02-04, 09:46 PM coldfuse You've just got to think that a place that once overwhelmingly elected Jerry Springer as its mayor still has some work to do Big Grin
08-04-04, 01:20 PM FredPuli Just wait until you see Jerry Springer ; the Opera, Coldfuse. Smile It may change your whole view of the man , if not your life. It has been an enormous hit in London. Why,in the UK he is regarded as a 'cultural icon'. Name me any other show host who gets an Opera named after, and about him and his work. He is obviously not appreciated, in the US, to the full extent that he should be. See, a prophet is never recognised in his own country !
Of course, he is really one of our own.
He was born in England.
Apart from that , the Administration have really got some of you going haven't they? What are these people you are supposed to look out for ? This is quite extraordinary. You mean they've given you a little guidebook have they? 'How to spot a terrorist'.You mean these al-Quaeda people hang around in groups do they,looking foreign?
I reckon that you should ask the President to authorise pinpoint bombing of somewhere, say Cincinnati or bits of it. Why, by past history all you need is the story that a person thought to be a terrorist has gone into a house there, call it a safe house, and then bomb it and all the other houses nearby (incidentally to that).Of course it won't make the people in those like you any more, and you'll kill a lot of innocents and alienate the rest; but that should rally the troops and really go down well back home....Oh, dear. Sorry that would be home. You'll have to stick to reporting foreigners to the police instead. Pity. Well the 'pinpoint' stuff worked every day in Iraq didn't it? Of course it did..yes it did...just keep saying that (and don't ask any questions Wink )
08-06-04, 08:31 PM soaringhorse Well, let's see....I do recall when we had two huge skyscrapers in New York City get demolished by some of these funny looking characters. Kind of makes you wonder, huh? How did they get their education on how to fly the jets into the buildings. Did they take residence here, while the whole time sneaking around planning this horrific event. Shame, isn't it? Yep, killed over 5.000, but then why would the US be angry? If it were somebody elses country, that this would've happened to, wouldn't you not want this to happen again? My god, this was a terrible attack, and we had every reason to go after the terrorists that did it. If it were your country that this happened to, how would you feel?
PS: Cincinnati is really looking good down on the river, we've got The Cincinnati's Underground Railroad Freedom Center( check it out ) coming soon, a new baseball stadium as well as a new football stadium, so don't knock it. By the way, I live in KY, but I'm not that far at all away from Cincy.
08-06-04, 11:42 PM methos
quote:Originally posted by soaringhorse: Yep, killed over 5.000,
Not that it isn't a horrible number as well, but the death toll was approximately 3,000.
As for the rest, who on earth said we shouldn't be going after terrorists?
08-06-04, 11:59 PM CincyOnTheRoad Soaringhorse, I know. I worked on the URFC for Glenwood Electric and on Paul Brown Stadium and Great American Ballpark for United Electric. But buildings don't make a city. And I lived in Northern Kentucky, too. Dayton, Bellevue, Newport, Covington, and Wilder.
Also, there were a bunch of European-looking types who marched to Jerusalem a few times and slaughtered men, women, and children. Should the current residents of the Middle East be weary of those European types whenever they see them?
08-07-04, 12:45 AM FredPuli Soaringhorse: Was your post supposed to be a reply to mine? If so, I now suggest you vote for the internment of all foreigners, starting with muslims. That should ease your anxiety a bit. Terrorism , bombing of buildings, killing of innocents, bomb and mortar attacks can and do occur in other countries. All of those have occurred in the UK. The mortar attack was on No 10 Downing Street the official residence of the Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher and she and her cabinet were also subject of a bomb attack which partially demolished a hotel she was at. We had a Member of Parliament killed by a car bomb inside the House of Commons underground car park , we have had bombings of department stores, killing customers, all on mainland Britain, not just in Northern Ireland.
Do we have this nonsense about suspicious foreigners? No. Now you have had one day of any significance in the US and that involved just three targetted buildings and only a few terrorists. I cannot think that the rest of America gets into such a state as you seem to suggest.
By the way the terrorism was stopped. ( And we never bombed any suburb or 'safe house' either Big Grin)
08-07-04, 07:13 AM soaringhorse Well, NYC has raised it's terrorist level up again to high, so I guess I'm not just imagining things. I'm not the only peson who is worried about it. I was just trying to show that at this time and point, there is a reason to be suspicious. FredPuli, Thank you for your imput on the mishaps in your country. I'm glad to know that the terrorism has stopped there. It sure would be nice if we didn't get in the mess we are in. Please enlighten me on this "safe house" you keep referring to ? Methos, are sure on the numbers? I think it was over 4,000, but it really doesn't matter, innocent lives were taken any way you look at it. No one said we shouldn't go after the terrorist, just an after thought. We all know that the Al-Queada (sp?) would rather kill us then look at us, especially now, since they're regrouping. We didn't just go in this war for the fun of it. It was all post 911.What were we suppose to do, just sit on it, and let it happen again? Cincy, You lived really close to me, why did you leave? I'm in a city called Taylor Mill. I know what you mean about Cincinnat, it does have a lot of problems going on in the inner city, it's a shame, they really should put their tax dollars towards rehabbing and cleaning the place up. I'm sure you understand that this war we're in is still fresh, it's not even over yet. So isn't it only natural to feel weary that the same people could do it again?
08-07-04, 10:41 AM methos Every number I have seen, except for the first few days when they were making estimates based on no actual counts, has been around 3,000.
For example, 2 years after the attacks memorial ceremonies were held. According to the State Department (and others): "children read the names of the 2,798 people who died in the terrorist attack on New York." "Defense Donald Rumsfeld presided over a wreath-laying ceremony at Arlington National Cemetery, near the Pentagon, where 184 people died" "Other ceremonies were held in the state of Pennsylvania, where a fourth hijacked airliner crashed into a field, killing all 40 persons aboard."
"Well, NYC has raised it's terrorist level up again to high" - NYC's terrorist threat level has never dropped from high, but yes, they have increased security in recent days.
You questioned why we should let people who looked like this into the country. Why shouldn't we? Did we kick out white males after they perpetrated what was previously the worst terrorist attack on US soil? What happens when al Qaeda uses non-arabs, as they did with shoe bomber Richard Reid?
What we're confused by, I think, is what's so suspicious. You tell us how they look, say they gather in groups, say you can't understand the, tell us they are well-behaved and don't do anything wrong, but ask "do you think it's wise to have them here in this country?" Behavior-wise, you've described any group of relatively recent immigrants, especially one who might have trouble mixing with other groups because they are being viewed with suspicion.
Maybe it would be better if we could get the message over to the Bush administration to stop the alerts, and warnings that we look out for suspicious persons/activity.
They are sort of contradicting themselves anyway. First, the terror alerts are raised and they warn us to look out for any suspisions, yet at the same time, they say go on about your business as usual. It may be hard to do both. We may not be able to watch out and chew gum at the same time.
So the best thing for us is to probably assume that we are all one big happy family, and tell Bush that Indians are probably looking over their shoulders.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 1031 | Location: Greater Cincinnati Area | Registered: 06-03-02
Maybe it would be better if we could get the message over to the Bush administration to stop the alerts, and warnings that we look out for suspicious persons/activity.
They are sort of contradicting themselves anyway. First, the terror alerts are raised and they warn us to look out for any suspisions, yet at the same time, they say go on about your business as usual. It may be hard to do both. We may not be able to watch out and chew gum at the same time.
So the best thing for us is to probably assume that we are all one big happy family, and tell Bush that Indians are probably looking over their shoulders. ****************************** 08-07-04, 12:45 PM FredPuli Soaringhorse: The 'safe house' is a term used by the US military in Iraq. It works like this. You decide, rightly or wrongly, that there is a house which houses plotting terrorists who are using it as a base. It may or may not contain munitions. So for example, there was one declared in Iraq where a terrorist was seen entering while carrying a bazooka. So what did the military do? They summoned aircraft with rockets and blew it up, together,inevitably you may think, with much of the neighbouring street. Nobody, even in the miltary, knows whether the terrorist was killed or ran away unharmed or was even still in the house by the time the planes were summoned. We do know of course that this tactic kills people in no way involved plus it causes a major coup for the sympathisers of the terrorists and creates more such sympathy among those who, in fact, may not like terrorism itself much, if at all. They do however resent innocent citizens, like themselves, families and all, and their houses being wiped out by strangers in planes who evidently have little care for human life . Such people hate America and Americans as a direct result and will do nothing but nothing to assist them. Of course millions of Americans back home are then encouraged to think that these people hate all Americans anyway. That is a convenient, wrong headed and defeatist view which equates to a self-fulfilling prophecy; something which we over here learnt from long and bitter experience.
(It apparently never occurs to anyone that the people next door may not want a house next door which has got terrorists moved in, nor yet the occupier, if the house is not already vacant . In Ireland it was a brave, if not foolhardy, person who would inform on them to the authorities even if the occupier was able to. The IRA were not inclined to give the woman (it often was a woman alone) whose house it was, that they commandeered for an operation, any say in the matter. Job done, they would move on to another).
If US forces; police, National Guard or any other; in the USA tried that tactic at home you can imagine the reaction. Why they should imagine that it is any different because the bombing is abroad,and the people are muslims, I've no idea. It doesn't say much for their experience of life or human nature if, as our military once did on occasion,many, many decades ago, they think it appropriate or profitable
08-07-04, 01:16 PM Sarai Fred, you said:
quote:
Originally posted by FredPuli: Do we have this nonsense about suspicious foreigners? No. Now you have had _one_ day of any significance in the US and that involved just three targetted buildings and only a few terrorists. I cannot think that the rest of America gets into such a state as you seem to suggest.
Your last sentence above is correct: Soaringhorse's fears are not universal to all Americans.
Likewise, I highly doubt, Fred, that your country has no "nonsense about foreigners". You know that I agree with you often, but I always will disagree with your constant insistance in the superiority of the British.
If American culture is racist, it comes from our Anglo roots - there is no doubt about that in my mind. Your country and mine both have a sickness and only the most recent generations have begun to look for a remedy.
Even after abolition, decolonization, and the influx of a large number of blacks after World War II, another contradiction remains: despite the fact that people of African descent have lived in Great Britain for centuries, many white British have refused to accept that their black neighbors, too, are British.
quote:
Thatcher claimed in 1978 that if immigration were not controlled, Great Britain would be swamped with more than 4 million outsiders. In the 1990s, racially motivated violence against blacks continues to rise, with some 60,000 attacks every year.
European, including Britain, anti-terrorist laws adopted post September 11, breed a culture of suspicion against Black people, Muslims and people of Middle-Eastern appearance, who are increasingly treated in the same way as were “enemy aliens” during World War One and Two.
The sudden increase in 2002 of Black people being stopped far more than white people under ‘Stop and Search’ adds a new layer to the racism and suspicion as foreigners, asylum seekers are demonised. Are we entering a new era in domestic race policy, where old, discredited ideas of monoculturalism and assimilation into the dominant white, European, Christian culture are once again in the ascendant? Some say that the hidden cost of September 11 in this respect is an unashamed racism.
quote:
Originally posted by FredPuli: Do we have this nonsense about suspicious foreigners?
quote: Muslim groups have agreed with a report by the EU race watchdog that anti-Islamic feeling has "detonated" in the UK since 11 September.
The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) said there had been a big rise in attacks - including physical assaults - on Muslims in Britain since the US terror attacks.
It monitored a period from 11 September until the end of December last year, and found numerous reports of attacks on Muslim people and institutions such as mosques.
They included women and children being harassed in the street, and one taxi-driver who was paralysed from the neck down in an attack in which 11 September was mentioned.
Examples of attacks on Muslims in UK Windows smashed at Glasgow's central mosque 10 pigs' heads left outside an Essex mosque Afghan taxi driver paralysed in an attack during which his attackers referred to 11 September.
Muslim groups said anti-Islamic feeling was still running high in the UK even now - more than eight months after the attacks thought to have been masterminded by Saudi dissident Osama Bin Laden.
Aizu Merani of the Islamic Human Rights Commission said 11 September had been a catalyst for a "major explosion" in anti-Islamic feeling in the UK.
"It's much more overt than before," she told BBC News Online.
"Before the end of last year we had the feeling maybe people felt things but would be ashamed to say them. Now they will say them quite openly."
08-07-04, 02:11 PM methos Fred- I have to agree with Sarai that you're being condescending. She pointed out, validly, xenophobia in Britian.
quote:Originally posted by FredPuli: Now you have had _one_ day of any significance in the US and that involved just three targetted buildings and only a few terrorists.
4 target buildings (one was prevented) and more than 3 were destroyed.
Do we have an IRA? No. That doesn't mean, save Sept 11th, we have somehow been sheilded from terror. A few examples (not all of them large) from the past decade: DC Snipers Atlanta Olympics bombing World Trade Center bombing (ok, this is just more than a decade ago) Anthrax Oklahoma City Federal Building A number of attacks of various sorts (bombings, shootings) on abortion providers and seekers Various overseas attacks on Americans (USS Cole, embassies, tourist areas) The Unabomber
And of course there's the foiled ones including the millenium bombing of LAX, the 1997 attempted bombing of the NYC subway, and the Tyler, TX white supremacists with an arsenal of guns and chemical weapons.
Thankfully, we haven't had the terrorism of, say, Isreal, but 9/11 wasn't our "one day of significance."
08-07-04, 03:56 PM FredPuli You misunderstand my 'nonsense about foreigners'
Of course we have racist louts in this country. They will attack whatever and whoever takes their fancy.They are but a step from our football thugs who'll attack and punch and kick anyone, an innocent passer by even, whom they believe is a fan of some particular team; indeed the racists and these violent "fans" tend to draw on the same people.
It is not just the 'race of the month' either. We had extraordinary cases of attacks on people's homes when we had an outbreak of trouble about supposed paedophiles. One gang attacked the home of a paediatrician because they were so illiterate and stupid that they thought that that was the same.That was all fuelled by a national tabloid 'naming and shaming' people convicted of having child porn or any conviction at all concerning a child; giving out details as to where they might be; it was enough to set off mob outbreaks.'This man is living in your area, here is his photograph', is not responsible journalism
Now, it requires no great imagination at all to see that if muslims are around the same thugs will attack them and 'justify' their behaviour to themselves.Most, if not all, will have been 'Paki bashing' all the time but the rate may go up given a 'reason '( Note: we even have a name for it, Paki-bashing'; it's what they the aggressors themselves call it, as the victims are Bangladeshi and Pakistani. Believe me, it has been going on for years, ever since people from the old East and West Pakistan started immigrating in large numbers, from the mid 1970s or so.
You can quote me a hundred of such cases perhaps. It is entirely irrelevant to my point
What I am saying is that we do not have this nonsense that we suddenly get into our heads that any given group or race may be terrorists. lurking and plotting. That is incipient paranoia.And it's a paranoia which is encouraged by irresponsible government.
Do you seriously suggest that Britons feel uneasy or frightened because there's a group of Iranians or Iraqis, or muslims generally, at a strret corner or getting on a 'plane ? Do you think that a man with a Belfast accent was immediately deemed a killer or a suspect terrorist by the public at large, on that account alone?
And now do you seriously suggest that our government puts out warnings such as I am reading about in these posts and in American media reports? Do you think that anyone in Britain is going to start a run on duct tape? Big Grin Of course not.
It is not that I condescendingly suggest that Britons are made of sterner stuff or are more calmly rational than Americans. In World War I people with German sounding names changed them. That's why someone whose family was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha suddenly became 'Windsor' as in The House of Windsor, as in Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.It's why Battenburg became Mountbatten (as with Prince Charles' uncle, Louis Mountbatten). It's why German Shepherd dogs became Alsatians. And it's why shops of German named owners were boarded up.
We have to be alive to such irrational thinking. But that has nothing to do with telling peopl;e of heightened general alerts or asking them to regard anyone such as described as worthy of suspicion. That simply causes anxiety and all to no good effect. And it must be the care, too, of any government that they do not give fuel to those who would act in this way. (Anyway it must cheer the terrorists up a treat, thinking they've frightened a whole nation into permanent neurosis and all without doing anything at all Big Grin )
Now, what to we do? Well if you can find a litter bin on a railway or underground station you are lucky Big Grin. They were are all removed years ago. They are replaced at stations by men pushing carts around so you can give them your papers etc or you take the papers with you Elsewhere they are of clear plastic bags so they can be checked and the bags frequently removed.All the liiter bins in Antibes and, for all I know, in France are of this clear bag pattern too. The public never, ever leaves any bag unattended. So much so that when a small purse and a carrier bag were on the adjacent seat in my plane just now, before take off, the woman next to me opened them to check the contents whilst I summoned the attendant (embarrassed, apologetic, French girl returned from the loo before the attendant had arrived Smile). This thinking is ingrained as second nature.It goes much beyond that, but eyeing foreigners and taking details of what they do or seem to be saying is not a (paranoid), part of it and certainly not one encouraged by the authorities.
By the way, the stopping of black people ( I mean ordinary black, Caribbean, people, not Asian; hence not muslim), has been a scandal in some police areas for years; an official report by a senior police officer described the Metropolitan Police as having 'Institutionalised racism'. There was a secretly filmed documentary recently where police in training were plainly 'Paki bashers' in uniform, who would use any excuse or none to stop Asians too if they could. Any security clampdown would give them carte blanche and does. However it also follows that the police are more likely for genuine reasons to be raiding muslim occupied places in pursuance of justified suspicions, of course )
08-07-04, 06:17 PM Sarai
quote:Originally posted by FredPuli: Of course we have racist louts in this country. They will attack whatever and whoever takes their fancy.
Racists exist in your country and mine. You obviously feel they are the exception in your country, and I wish you would recognize the same fact in mine.
quote: What I am saying is that we do not have this nonsense that we suddenly get into our heads that any given group or race may be terrorists. lurking and plotting. That is incipient _paranoia_.And it's a paranoia which is _encouraged_ by irresponsible government.
Are you seriously trying to suggest that rampant racial profiling has nothing to do with your own irresponsible government?
quote: Do you seriously suggest that Britons feel uneasy or frightened because there's a group of Iranians or Iraqis, or muslims generally, at a strret corner or getting on a 'plane ? Do you think that a man with a Belfast accent was immediately deemed a killer or a suspect terrorist by the public at large, on that account alone?
Yes. Not all Britons, any more than all Americans do. But some obviously do; you don't physically assault people based on their race unless you feel their race is somehow a threat to yours. You call my above examples of Britons attacking people of non-Anglo descent "irrelevant," apparently because you consider people with those beliefs in Britain to be "racist thugs" who aren't representive of regular Britons. I posit the same point about Americans. If you are going to call 60,000 annual racially motivated attacks in Britain "irrelevant" and not representative of the average Brit's opinion, then I will posit the same about various and sundry questions and comments on an internet question and answer site.
quote: It is not that I condescendingly suggest that Britons are made of sterner stuff or are more calmly rational than Americans.
This is like saying, "We're better than you. It's not that I'm saying we're better than you. We have problems too. But we're better than you." Or perhaps you're not saying that you're better, only that we're worse. Big Grin
quote: in France ...eyeing foreigners and taking details of what they do or seem to be saying is not a (paranoid), part of it and certainly not one encouraged by the authorities.
08-08-04, 04:32 AM FredPuli Sarai : I seem to have hit a nerve.Your very post sounds the work of someone who is anxious and , so, angry Smile. Go on the attack, that's the way ( he writes, condescendingly Smile)
People here do not go out Paki bashing because they feel threatened by muslims in general or Bangladeshis. They attack their victims for no other reason that they enjoy attacking 'Pakis'. They have no motive of economic fear or fear of muslims as 'supporters of terrorism' Big Grin Big Grin. They just pick on harmless people of a different culture and always have.
What's the answer to my question about duct tape ? You, I gather, are able to joke about it now, but at the time there was a lot of buying, wasn't there ? Now what government ever allowed that to happen? (Last time we had something like that was when some hoaxer in the 1970s put out a story about a sudden shortage of toilet rolls; it took about two weeks before the run was assuaged, because, once started , it was self fulfilling Big Grin )
The discussion is about what steps your government takes. It seems plain from here that they do not know what they are doing, to put it bluntly.Telling me that the French or the British are racist does not address that criticism and if I am bold enough to criticise your government for creating a climate of unreasonable and unreasoning anxiety,such as is detected in some of the posts on AP,and which neither the French nor the British government has succeeded in doing you might think better of the criticism than to call it condescending.Nobody suggests that Americans are by nature anxious but I can, and do, suggest that your administration seems set upon making them so.
You might bring yourself to thinking that what an American government does in the name of the people or how Americans think is not, by definition, the best way. Some people learn from experience. If that experience comes from abroad and conflicts with their own native belief it does not make it wrong. At the risk of sounding condescending, I would not take offence if, as does happen, a disapproving French, German or any other said "Nobody in my country would act/think like that". The days of a people, all powerful in the World, who presumed without question that the British way, their own way, was not only best but the only way are lost in history. It would be a pity if a nation that is now even more powerful than the British once were, should ever find itself falling into the same error, would it not?
We never did have cases of people attacking the Irish, even those with Northern Irish origins and accents, even at the height of the IRA campaigns in Britain. But then the Irish are white and are, well, Irish. Even the vilest skinhead didn't beat up any passing Irish man or youth because they were from Londonderry and coming out of a Catholic club for example. I can't recall any arson atack on any Irish club or home here but I can recall plenty involving Asian homes (and it goes back years).
So why, if you do, you think that anyone here is unnerved by the sight of any foreigners I cannot deduce. I on the other hand have noted reports of your government telling people to look out for people in groups and so on, as described. There was that nonsense of an official notice going out way back telling the police nationwide to look out for people buying and carrying almanacs because such books may contain local information and maps as well as key dates ! (You may recall we had some amusement about almanac being an Arabic word, like alGore, and so deeply suspect per se Big Grin )
That's what I'm on about. All I hope for is some explanation why, for example, your administration feels it necessary to give color coded warnings out. Our lot (condescending again you see, or possibly giving an alternative way, which might just be a bit better; who knows? You tell me ) content themselves with telling the police. At most we will get a reminder that in such and such a period we should be particularly vigilant at, say, airports but even that is unusual.We are presumed after all these years to be aware.
08-08-04, 11:50 AM Sarai
quote:Originally posted by FredPuli: Sarai : I seem to have hit a nerve.Your very post sounds the work of someone who is anxious and , so, angry Smile. Go on the attack, that's the way ( he writes, condescendingly Smile
You did hit a nerve, Fred! It isn't that you disagree with my government; I (and many other Americans) do too. My only contention is that you said that you have no "nonsense about foreigners" and your inaccurate assertion that we have _one_ day of significance (which is innaccurate as Methos pointed out. Additionally, in Britian you haven't had any single day that compares in the last couple of decades - but I don't like playing "who has suffered more" because it's a ridiculous game to play, and blood is a non-countable noun).
It isn't your criticism of my government, but your constant generalizations, your negative stereotypes of us and your positive stereotypes of your own people, and what appears to me to be your attempt to set the Brits and the French up as the shining example that we should follow.
You are from a part of the world that has perpetrated some of the worst evils in the modern world. If you were, say, Canadian or Mexican and trying to set your country up as an example of tolerance, I would be much more open to it. Americans could learn a lot from our neighbors north and south about tolerance. But it is extremely irritating to hear a Western European trying (as you often do) to set his nation up as our "teacher."
And I don't feel I went on the attack. I feel I went on the defense. Smile
That's the point of everything in this post, so for those who aren't inclined to keep reading, you've already got the gist. But to address Fred's specific points...
quote: People here do not go out Paki bashing because they feel threatened by muslims in general or Bangladeshis. They attack their victims for no other reason that they enjoy attacking 'Pakis'. They have no motive of economic fear or fear of muslims as 'supporters of terrorism' Big Grin Big Grin
Wow. Attacking others simply for not being white, with no need to even lie to yourselves about the reason! That is real, pure racism, no ifs ands or buts! Smile
quote: What's the answer to my question about duct tape ? You, I gather, are able to joke about it now, but at the time there was a lot of buying, wasn't there ? Now what government ever allowed that to happen? (Last time we had something like that was when some hoaxer in the 1970s put out a story about a sudden shortage of toilet rolls; it took about two weeks before the run was assuaged, because, once started , it was self fulfilling Big Grin )
I don't like the Bush administration. The government is ridiculous. Also, I didn't buy duct tape nor do I know anyone who did.
quote: The discussion is about what steps your government takes. It seems plain from here that they do not know what they are doing, to put it bluntly.Telling me that the French or the British are racist does not address that criticism and if I am bold enough to criticise your government for creating a climate of unreasonable and unreasoning anxiety,such as is detected in some of the posts on AP,and which neither the French nor the British government has succeeded in doing you might think better of the criticism than to call it condescending.
As I said, I agree with your criticism about our government. I disagree with the notion that your countries have no "nonsense about foreigners" and I disagree with the way that you spoke about September 11th. That is all I took up with you, and that is all I disagree with you about. I generally agree with your politics and always have.
I think our country needs to change. So do a number of other Americans on this site and in this country - a point that I would love to see you recognize.
quote: You might bring yourself to thinking that what an American government does in the name of the people or how Americans think is not, by definition, the best way.
THIS is condescending. Check my past posts. Check the past posts of the majority of Americans who post on this site. We have and do think about what our government does and we have and do discuss the possibility that *gasp* it isn't the best way.
quote: Some people learn from experience. If that experience comes from abroad and conflicts with their own native belief it does not make it wrong. At the risk of sounding condescending, I would not take offence if, as does happen, a disapproving French, German or any other said "Nobody in my country would act/think like that".
I wouldn't use the phrase "Nobody in my country would..." because I know for a fact that someone would. Generalizations - for good or for evil - bother me. This is a very diverse country. Whatever I or my circle of friends and family think or have experienced doesn't even begin to cover the diversity of thought and experiences in this country.
This thread is about racism, xenophobia and intolerance. You may not be aware of how ugly your history with that regard looks from this side of the pond. We have an ugly history with it too, but that doesn't mean that we think your country should be our teacher.
quote: The days of a people, all powerful in the World, who presumed without question that the British way, their own way, was not only best but the only way are lost in history. It would be a pity if a nation that is now even more powerful than the British once were, should ever find itself falling into the same error, would it not?
I do not presume that our way is the best way, nor do all Americans. Again, please look at the majority of posts by Americans on this site. The majority of posts are about how we need to change, not about how perfect we are. Your stereotype of Americans is inaccurate and offensive.
I agree with your politics, Fred. I disagree with your sense that the British and/or the French have got it all figured out and should now be revered. I don't know what else to say in this regard.
quote: We never did have cases of people attacking the Irish...
That's because for the most part, the Irish are white, Fred. It's a symptom of the disease your country and mine have. During WWII, Americans interned the Japanese Americans, but implemented no policy against those of German descent. Your country and mine have issues with racism, and our xenophobia is strongest when it involves people of other colors.
It doesn't change the fact that you DO have "nonsense about foreigners." And quite a bit of it.
quote: So why, if you do, you think that anyone here is unnerved by the sight of any foreigners I cannot deduce. I on the other hand have noted reports of your government telling people to look out for people in groups and so on, as described.
Please see my above posts for evidence that people in Western Europe, including Britain and France, are unnerved by foreigners.
And no, your argument that your countrymen are cruel to people not because they are foreigners, but because they are people of color, and not because you're afraid, but because you are proudly racist... well, that does not make me want to be your student. Thanks, though. Big Grin
By the way, while I agree 100% that our government has gone off the deep end, I have never heard Bush say that we should distrust people specifically from certain countries or of Middle Eastern descent. There is racial profiling here to some extent, as in your country, but as for making announcements like, "Report people who are brown skinned with accents to the police immediately," well that's just silly. If he made such statements, he would be politically (if not physically) slaughtered!
I enjoy your posts, Fred. I learn from you. You could learn from us, too, if you would open your mind. Mostly, I just wish you would be a bit less inclined to put all Americans in one category, Western Europeans (led by Britain and France, of course) in another, and through your choice of words, designate one "dumb, uneducated and inexperienced" and the other "the beacon of civilization." It's a little irritating. Wink
08-08-04, 05:49 PM FredPuli The question,Sarai, is what your government is doing with your people. It seems that, whether they intend it or not ; I note that some liberals at least, think that it is done on purpose, for political ends; the administration is heightening anxiety about terrorism and doing so with quite breathtaking incompetence (or efficiency depending on your view of any motive).
Do you agree with any of that? That they are increasing anxiety and that can only have a detrimental effect on the thinking and morale of the people, or at least some of them, which a better administration and a different policy would not do. It does nothing to better the safety of the people. Indeed it may be counter productive and make them less safe.
Posts such as that which started this thread are , it is perfectly plain, a reflection of that anxiety.It is not unique.
It is submitted that there is a better way. Do you agree that there is? You may note that what you take as what we may term my trumpeting that the British or French are superior only translates into saying that the Americans, through their chosen government and its military have shown themselves ignorant of, or unwilling or unable to learn from, the experience of others.It is as though there was a belief that they leapt out fully formed and informed about how to deal with trouble within Iraq and know all about how to deal with terrorism with (you must surely concede) no long experience of the subject. If they did have long experience it does not appear to have availed them any.(Perhaps their belated complete volte face and complete change of tactics and,incidentally, adoption of the strategy and tactics so long urged by the British and being used to such effect elsewhere in Iraq, and previously in Ireland and elsewhere, was evidence of nothing at all? Coincidence no doubt.)
Now it seems it is happening when addressing the public about terrorism and public safety.
Perhaps you will tell me where outside of this subject I have claimed or appear to have thought that the British are innately or by experience superior in any field.
I refer to it racist violence in the UK in some detail only to demonstrate that it is simply that, racism, and not (as it seemed to me to be urged here) in part, a manifestation of a fear or anxiety about terrorism or Islam, fundamentalist or otherwise, or revenge for terrorist acts. There is no anxiety on that account in Britain, France or, so far as I know, the European Union generally . If such anxiety occurs in the United States it is my contention that your government is doing nothing to assuage it but, rather, a lot to cause or enlarge it.
I would happily tell you that 99% of Britons would attack anyone with a brown skin on sight that our history is one of unalloyed evil or we have a fear or hatred of anyone foreign, regardless; but it would not alter the argument one jot. (As it happens the British version of the National Front, the British National Party polls such a small number of votes in our General Elections that it is almost impossible to measure).
I would happily tell you the same about France. It would not alter the argument one jot.
Footnote: [ To explain M Le Pen's result in becoming the second of the two remaining candidates; the candidates are progressively eliminated in successive rounds; in the French Presidential election ( by the way ,he lost by the biggest landslide in French political history) requires more time and space than I can afford to give it here. In summary: In effect he became the alternative candidate by default, not because of mass popularity of his platform (which was expressed as being tough on immigration and on controlling scroungers who milk the French taxpayer; you may guess which immigrants and which "scroungers" he had mostly in mind. He had his eye on the 'immigrants' from the new EU members too,though, I bet ). It highlights the absurdity of Proportional Representation,PR, (and the benefit of the US and British 'first past the post' system), whereby nobody much voted for him as their preferred choice but the whole of the opposition, the Left, strongly supported, could not unite until too late(hence the landslide ).The existence of so many dozens of parties of the Left all saying much the same but being allowed to exist and survive as separate representing parties all taking a tiny part of the vote and squabbling selfishly, is a product of PR
Le Pen was only one party but a united one, of an unpleasant kind; not on the face of it appearing, of course, anything like one led by a man capable of his past utterances. That, regrettably, is how the system can work; but he had no chance of winning. Anyone , left, right or centrist would vote for Chirac in such bizarre circumstances and did, to the extent of 82% of the vote]
08-09-04, 12:45 PM Sarai Yes, our government is incompetent and working to raise levels of anxiety. It doesn't change my point, which is that your country does have "nonsense about suspicious foreigners." That's all I was arguing. I don't care if your estimation of my country is low, but if you're going to brag about your own folks in comparison, at least be accurate. I feel obliged to point out that your estimation of your own country is too high in this regard, and I'd like you to recognize that.
You want to argue that our government is milking our fears, but there's no point in arguing it. I already agree with you about that. I even agree that our government is doing it more than yours is. But it doesn't mean that your country is perfect or free of nonsense about foreigners, which was the whole point of my original post about this topic. I just took exception to that one little quotation of yours about your country having no nonsense about foreigners and our country having lost its wits after what you seem to feel was one piddly day of little significance. That's my whole beef with what you wrote - nothing more.
And no, Soaringhorse's question is not only the result of our current government's actions. Our government couldn't milk xenophobia if it wasn't there in the first place, and it didn't come out of nowhere. It is the result of a xenophobic tradition in our country (and yours...and most others, come to think of it) that has existed as long as our country has. I could give you a history of it, but I'm running out of steam. You'll just have to trust me on it. Smile
I also disagree that your racism and xenophobia stems simply from a twisted English cultural version of "fun." I think that racism and xenophobia stem from fear and ignorance - no matter who is the racist or the xenophobe. If the English have no distrust of foreigners, then why the hightened attacks against Arabs and Muslims shortly after 9/11 in Great Britain?
Anyway, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. You say "Americans stink," and I say "I am rubber and you are glue." Smile
11-07-04, 06:29 AM cyberlaol wow-well this foreigner just decided to wade in here and look around-now that I did and learned a lot-I'll move on Big Grin
11-07-04, 12:13 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by honilov: Maybe it would be better if we could get the message over to the Bush administration to stop the alerts, and warnings that we look out for suspicious persons/activity.
They are sort of contradicting themselves anyway. First, the terror alerts are raised and they warn us to look out for any suspisions, yet at the same time, they say go on about your business as usual. It may be hard to do both. We may not be able to watch out and chew gum at the same time. Eek
So the best thing for us is to probably assume that we are all one big happy family, and tell Bush that Indians are probably looking over their shoulders.
Ever tire of hearing about terrorist "chatter" it appears that the CIA, FBI, ABC and XYZ all have their ears open and are getting communication from the "Terrorists".
Here's how it works. Lets say that AnswerPool has been known to be the hang out of a potential terrorist. What happens is that AP is put on a special program where every post is scanned by a search engine geared to pick out words and phrases. When one of those words or phrases is used anywhere on AP a flag is tagged and maybe - maybe - a human being will read the post to see how the word or phrase is used.
After 9-11 the Agencies in question are hard at work scanning all possible sites, emails and electronic communications for possible words and phrases that may point to a terrorist. Ironically the events of 9-11 and the media introduced common terrorist words into the daily conversations of millions of people, thus now we have more people talking terrorist thus producing more seeming "terrorist threats" even though they are only using words and phrases and theorizing on possible future attacks.
What the Government does not make readily known is that prior to 9-11 they were getting the self same information and never informing us about it. In other words until the events on 9-11 we there under constant chatter threats yet went around not knowing about it, not being suspicious of people, not even having the slightest idea that it could happen on American soil.
In fact due to the high number of "hits" in the "chatter" the FBI and CIA were able to miss the lead up to 9-11 (or so they claim) and the hints such as known terrorists learning how to fly planes in America were missed - due to the sheer volume of "suspicious chatter".
Today the politics is such as to remind us that we are under threat of attack and to use that to attain political goals, such as making war, such as justifying the removal of our rights and freedoms - Trust me the terrorists are no more active today than they were prior to 9-11 - the only thing that has changed is the common man's awareness and the politicians over use of that threat to achieve whatever goals they have.
The Backlash of 9-11 is that we over reacted, the Patriot Act was not really needed. Nor is "homeland Security" nor all of the other wonderful programs which are hard at work spending taxpayers money but not achieving a single damn thing.
It is sad to note that the terrorists did win - the Patriot Act, homeland security, the coming federal ID system all are wins against democracy.
The call to look out for "suspicious persons" is also another win. Fear won - now its the politicians who are using that fear.
12-29-04, 12:59 PM SeattleRon we are all foreigners here. the only ones who aren't are the Native American Indians. Besides, the only jobs that the so called foreigners take are the ones that white people wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. minimum wage dirty jobs like gutting fish on a boat. digging ditches or factory jobs. As far as the money goes to help our own people. Look this is the land of the free. nobody is stopping anyone here from being a sucess. You can do anything you want here. If you end up homeless it's your own fault. there are plenty of jobs and resources out there. The problem is are you willing to bust your ass to get to it? People here in America are just too lazy. Why do you think people from other coutries come here. Not for the 99cent BigMac. They come here because they see oppurtunity. They see not a 7 dollar an hour job, but a chance to turn that 7 dollars into 7 million dollars. Something that is not possible in their country. Thats the way I see it. If you're broke and poor it's your own fault. I've seen too many people come up from nothing to owning 3 BMW's and a Mercedes Benz. Oppurtunity is here and it's your choice to make something of it or to squander it away. Not to sit around and blame everybody else for the reason that your broke and on welfare. This isn't directed to anyone in particular.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Karrow, 12-29-04 05:29 PM
12-30-04, 01:06 PM aminator2002 I would love to know what an Iranian looks like. I live in an area heavily populated by people of Asian and Middle Eastern descent and I'd challenge anyone to come and pick out the Iranians... it's totally absurd.
Some people actually appreciate having foreigners within our country. I, for one, have met some wonderful friends through the student visa program. I think this thread is totally ridiculous and hope that those that oppose student visas have opened their minds a bit. Bringing in the worlds' brightest students to go to school and work here has benefited this country a great deal. They are not taking jobs but making jobs.
Some took advantage of the freedom offered in this country. Don't attack freedom because of the abuse of freedom... makes about as much sense as launching an attack on tsunamis.
01-09-05, 05:09 PM honilov Ami, all this suspicion started when Bush warned America to be on the look-out. All this controversy kinda piggy-backed from his warning. Maybe he should have explained better or kept his mouth shut.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
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