Humans have instincts, and they are generally considered base, rooted in our animal nature. Still, where would we be without them?
The care the mother instinctively gives her infant is one. She needs to nourish and protect it. But in times like these, when there is a surplus of food, that instinct can become counter-productive. The 150-lb. four-year-old is the product. Rather than guarding the child's well-being, the mother who overfeeds is threatening the child's life.
The instinct for sex is another. Our species is instilled with it, so we will reproduce. But when our numbers become so great that we threaten our entire environment, it's time to review the effects of this basically good instinct. Abstain, after you've produced your two children? Certainly, if you choose to. But don't expect that preaching abstinence to others will work. It simply doesn't. So let them use the means they prefer. To prevent them leads to more unwanted children in the world; it leads to abuse, neglect, cruelty -- and another generation many of whose members are angry and violent.
I recently saw a pro-life commercial. It showed two seeds planted. Later one seed is dug up. The other grows and flourishes; we see a healthy, attractive, joyous child, well-dressed, well-fed, obviously loved and well cared for. He plays on a swing happily in the sunlight.
From this we are to conclude that the uprooted seed was robbed of the same happy life. But what is the truth?
The truth is that the seed that was removed was unwanted. Real gardeners (as opposed to some yuppie making a television commercial) know that overcrowded seedlings do not produce a healthy, vigorous growth. For a human unwanted, if he/she survives childhood at all, the world is not all sunlight and love. The world can be viciously cruel. And cruelty breeds cruelty.
The two statements:
(1) Force this mother to bear this unwanted child, and
(2) Build bigger prisons to house these unsocialized subhumans
often proceed from the same mouth, and about the same child, but the statements are made twenty years apart in time.
We have an instinct to hunt and kill animals. Lakes where ducks land are frequently found to have a bottom inches deep in lead shot pellets, the result of many years of duck-hunting. The lead poisons the water and the fish. Rare species are often hunted to extinction, because some hunter wants a rare trophy. Can we not subdue our hunting instinct when food is so easily got from domestic animals?
Humans have intelligence, and the ability to analyse a situation. We should use it.
I'm reminded of an experiment involving measuring the intelligence of ants. The nurse ants have a strong instinct to feed the newly-hatched ant larvae. Unlike humans, ants have little imagination. A researcher wondered what the ant would do if there was no food with which to feed the larva. The ant scurried about for a while, exploring the cage for food. Then it became quiet for a minute. Then it went to the rear end of the larva, bit off a piece of it, and presented it to the front end of the larva. That is what blind instinct does.
Instinct guided by intelligence, such as we find in humans, can do a little better, I think.
Some of our most revered guidelines are rooted in blind instinct. But the world has changed since the Jews struggled to survive in a hostile desert environment, surrounded by enemy tribes. Must we cling to their views no matter what goes on around us?
Do you think humans can overcome instinct?
[This message was edited by Karrow on 02-22-03 at 10:28 PM.]
Posts: 6369 | Location: British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 06-11-02
The first time a buddy took me out to go repelling with him, he fitted me with the rigging, secured the lines, took me to the edge of a sheer drop of about 50 feet, had me stand with my back to the cliff and my heels hanging over the edge and then instructed, “Now…lean backward”. It took more than a little self control for me to overcome the voice in my brain that was screaming, “You fool! Don’t lean back! You’ll fall!” But I learned to trust the equipment. Same thing with scuba diving. The first time I submerged and tried to take a breath through the regulator my lungs locked and the voice shouted, “You idiot! You’re underwater! There’s no air here!” But I learned to trust the equipment. In each case I learned to override deeply ingrained survival instincts. People do it all the time in all sorts of situations. Police, firemen and rescue personnel have to overcome all sorts of instinctive behaviors in order to do their jobs well. More and more people are resisting sexual urges until marriage. More people are learning to resist the urge to stuff food in their faces simply because it is available or tastes good. Yes, we can and do overcome instinct. ****************************************************** 02-12-03, 05:01 PM Shaggy Mike,
You hear voices too? Big Grin
Shaggy
02-12-03, 05:26 PM Mike121 Shaggy,
Yes, occasionally. Sometimes it’s an audible voice. Like the time I wanted to bungee jump…I heard a voice just behind me say, “If you do that, I’ll kill you.”
It was my wife. Wink
02-12-03, 05:41 PM Shaggy Babs,
#1 overpopulation is a myth.
#2 you cannot prove any given child will grow up abused and neglected and become a criminal any more than I can prove the same child will grow up with everything a child needs and become a doctor.
Here's a question: if you could conclusively prove that an infant born 2 minutes ago was going to become a criminal, would you suggest someone kill him/her? What is the difference between an infant 2 minutes after being born and 2 minutes before (in the U.S., "partial birth abortions" are legal)?
#3 I'm sure the people who made the commercial realize that abuse and neglect exist, but they have to get their point across in a very short time. If I had done the commercial I would have been a lot more biased and graphic.
There would be no sound. I would have shown two seeds planted. I would do a frame-by-frame thing with both sprouting. At that point I would split the screen. On the left I would show someone taking care of the plant, watering it, giving it light, etc. as it grew into a beutiful flower. On the right I would show a hand with a rubber glove remove the newly sprouted seedling from the ground, pluck off the tiny leaves, crush what was left of the seed, toss the mess into a dish, pour poison on it, dump the dish into a bucket full of other dead plants, and then show the bucket being pushed by a foot into a closet as the screen fades to black while the door closes. Then I would show a pro-life text message on the screen.
This would be extremely biased, but would certainly get the point across of how I view abortion.
Shaggy
02-12-03, 07:08 PM DvdGStwrt Humanity will cease to exist within 50 years. Well, 90% of it will.
Whether or not Christ decides to return in that time, Mankind will suffer an extinction at worse, or a best, a culling of the herd of such scale that the population will be reduced to less than 10% of its current size ( that means 5.4 billion will die, while 600 million survive).
I will be through a succession of wars, famines (caused by war and by our pollution of the environment) it will be through the bigger, stronger super Germs we have created through misuse of antibiotics, it will be through civilian wars (AKA Gang Wars, Road Rage, Riots, etc). The weak, the stupid, the 'civilized' people who are unwilling and unable to acknowledge that things are, getting worse, will be most surprised when their neigborhood is steam rolled under troops, germs, or the neighboring streets.
We will over crowd ourselves to death, we will bite off the butts of our babies to feed to them, we will feed our children to early graves, we will continue to hate and make war and find bigger and better ways to kill one another. We will blow the heads off of the tail gaters, or decide to ram the stupid idiot who pulled out in front of us without looking. We will secretly wish to join a gan so we can pop a few caps off at the Other Guy - some of us will go with that feeling and become gang leaders.
Our species has been doomed all along. It is in our nature to cull our own herd.
The only threat to mankind is mankind himself. Every other species has a natural predator which keeps the numbers in check. Our natural predator is ourself. It is as natural as a lion bringing down a calve, it is as natural as a cat kills a mouse. Part of life that our species really hates to admit is part of us.
You will not hear this at sunday school, you may not hear this in most university Biology Classes, you may not even hear many scientists admit to this fact, but humanity is doomed to meet a large dieing off period no matter what we think we can do to stop it.
All religions teach that life as we know it will end. From the Hindu to the Native American, there is a price to be paid for success. Sure, they paint it rather nicely, Calling it the "End of the Cycle" or 'The Purification' or even 'The latter Days' This is to hide the fact that what ever you call it that time will be hell on earth, and not many people will survive.
Most of humanity is made up of stupid dumb cows. They are blind to everything but their silly little lives (Believing that their life really has some meaning or merit) They are stupid, willing to believe anything and everything as long as it makes them feel good. Here is the key, it must feel good to them or they will not change their behavior, no matter how many times they are told that they are killing all of us.
Look at the past two decades, with all the warnings we have gotten, just how manyu people have stopped riving to the corner market, or have joined a car pool? I look at my crowded freeway and I see more cars being driven my one person more than I did 20 years ago.
Do you honestly think that the way government workers treat you when you are filing taxes or disability or any other number of things is because the system is just whacked? Those condescending tones, those full explanations that they give you even when yo do not ask, the careful way they tell you you must have forms XYZ34, HGJ5 and 200Z before they can even look at you are not by accident. Nope, the system is designed to serve the majority, who are blind, believing, stupid cattle that has no clue of what they are doing, where they are going, or that they can think for themselves.
Fortunately there have been none of these cows on this board. I figure it is because they are unable to fathom anything beyond their preconceived concepts of the world and are not able to think freely. Even if they sojourned here they would be too shocked to stick around and even begin to question their little notions of the world. No, they would rather scurry off and hide. Teh Cow Reaction to issues.
It is the cattle which have over bred, it is the cattle who acts on instinct alone. It is the cattle who do not dare to question the authority of the Church, it is the Cattle who are behind the president when ever he says something. It is the cattle who, oddly enough, have no idea that time is running short thus do not make a single bit of noise about the way things really are.
Trust me, we can stand to lose the cattle. All of the potential Einsteins, Mozart's, Beethoven's, etc. will figure out a way to survive - Darwin said they will. Survival of the fittest.
The rest will feed their babies to death, have large families, refuse to sell the big SUVs and rely on one economy car, or two. These are the lazy ones who, even under the advise of their doctors, refuse to lose a couple of pounds, or take up healthy walking, or cut back on sweets.
See the cause and effect at work here? do you see how the the process will eliminate the cattle and not the smart, wise people who know that humanity has to change? Amazing how it works, no?
I predict that those who have had their eyes opened to the fact that there are cattle in the world will come to see who is and isn't a cow. If you already haven't by now. I know many of you who have admitted to me in private email that yes, there are many people who are cattle like, and you just can not understand them - at all.
I will also lay odds that the majority of the members on this board find that can't stand cows, never have tolerated them, and have managed to acquire a ring of friends and family who are not cattle, but are of like mind. I also predict that anyone who considers this concept a bit further are the ones who find themselves naturally being drawn to doing things on their own, are not Fanatics of watching sports (would in fact, rather participate) Doesn't understand how most of the TV reality shows presently running could possible have a following, and may even understand the deeper, hidden meaning of South Park. And has no clue why everyone has to wear the same clothes to make a 'Fashion statement' and other 'popular' fads and fancies which you can not wrap your mind around nor really ge interested in.
I suspect, nay, I know that most of the members of this board have carefully structured their lives to make cow contact as rare as possible. You may say you are busy, are unsocial, are active, or prefer to be a home body, but the truth of the matter is is that you know on a gut level that the world is full of cattle and you want nothing to do with them.
It is my estimate that around 20% of the population are not cattle, are free thinking, active, able human beings who to one extent or another try to make a real difference by sacrificing small things in their lives, donating their time and money to charitable works, have hobbies that are based on the idea of recycling, environmental recovery, or somehow 'goes back to nature' in one way or another.
It is that 20% who take the time to read a book, learn a language, enter into friendly debate, or in some other way promote brain stimulation. The rest either watch TV, Play video games, or hang out with other cattle having worthless conversation, of 'Like, you, you know, Like'
Now tell me, after serious consideration, if what I have said makes no sense. Tell me that I am wrong. If you are honest with yourself, you will admit that yep, 80% of humanity are not up to snuff, and yep, you are more intelligent (which has nothing to do with how much you know, it only means you know how to use what you know better Wink) than most of the people you have met.
Once you acknowledge the Cow effect, then how and why the world is and where the world is going becomes not so much as a terrible thing, but a relief.
Cheers
David
02-12-03, 07:17 PM DvdGStwrt #1 overpopulation is a myth.
Really? Well tell that to the millions who are dieing of starvation. No, its not because America refuses to feed the world, its because there really isn't enough food to go around, and the food we have is hear only through the chemicals which we pour into our soil and ground water to make our acres produce as much as possible. Trust me, 6 billion is more than enough for this one planet.
This would be _extremely_ biased, but would certainly get the point across of how I view abortion.
Ironically I not only support abortion to the fullest extend, but I have also been trying to get as many signatures to help raise the date limit of when a abortion can take place.
It has been shown that women can abort well after the third trimester with no harm to themselves. This is why I am pushing to get abortion legalized to the limit of 18 years.
Cheers
David
02-13-03, 11:21 AM Bibleman
David: (in response to your last post) Actually, starvation is not a result of over population. There is plenty of food produced to feed everyone in the world, and then some. The problem is the uneven distribution of the food. Either people cannot afford it, or in some cases the government does not distribute it properly. As one example, not too long ago thousands of tons of food was shipped to Ethiopia to help alleviate the starvation there. What happened to it? It rotted on the docks!. Furthermore, think how much more food could be produced on the currently available farmland if unnecessary crops such as tobacco were not grown there. Much of the desert land is fertile as well, and only needs water. Much of the desertification of the planet is manmade, and much of it could be reversed by people if they really wanted to.
In response to your next to last post, I've noticed, and you yourself said so, that you tend to be move more away from faith than toward it. I think that is sad. Based on your post over in SoloSpirit, it seems you also do not think very highly of Jehovah's Witnesses. That's OK by me, I am just here to help if I can. I do think though you could be encouraged by reading Look! I Am Making All Things New. At least take a look at it.
Shaggy: You gave an excellent example. If it is legal to murder a person just because they are unborn, it seems hypocritical to say it is illegal to murder 2 minutes later. David has proposed extending abortions to include post-birth abortions up to 18 years of age. It doesn't matter when someone is murdered, whether it is 18 minutes or 18 years after conception, murder is still murder!
02-13-03, 01:46 PM DvdGStwrt I know what you are saying, but I assure you that living in the Rural Farm Lands of California (Who produces 25% of Americas agricultural products) It is done with a lot of chemical fertilizers and with pesticides, herbicides and a good deal of hybrid seeds.
If we were to try to raise this much food naturally we would find that 1/4 to 1/3 of the crops would be lost due to disease and insects, while the rest would soon fall pray to lack of nutrients.
There are tracks of land around here which have a hard time growing weeds due to the over cultivation of the soil.
We see this same problem showing up in the Grain Belt of America. We see this same Problem over seas in Europe and Asia.
Sure, Technology has made it possible to squeeze a great deal of production out of the soil, but the price is poisoned ground water and rivers, it is a soil so unbalanced that if we stopped dumping fertilizers nothing would grow for years.
The Earth can sustain 1 person per half acre of agricultural land. (Roughly) Naturally. That means without the chemicals and herbacides and insecticides. The whole land area of earth is 57 268 900 square miles - total. that comes to 36 652 096 000 acres total. Out of that number you can take a good 34% for Mountains, desserts, tundra and other natural geologic features that prevent farming:
12 461 712 640 Leaves 24 190 383 360
Take away say 10% for cities and dwellings, freeways, recreational areas, land fills, polluted land areas, wildlife areas, etc. ( a conservative number all yu have to do is get a night time image of the world to see just how well lit and dense our world cities really are)
Leaves 2 419 038 336 acres
Times 2 (1/2 acre per person) and we find that there are around 4.83 billion available resource slots for 6 billion people.
Yes, our science has been able to produce much more food on those acres than ever before.
But, we can not continue doing it forever.
Add to this that homes are being built in the tens of thousands here in California. Each day I can see another couple of acres of Orchard, Vineyard and crops being paved over and built upon. Remember, 25% of the US's total crop production is coming right of of this Central Valley were I live - I am as close to the truth as you can get.
Last year there was a small blight running through our crops here. You may not have heard about it, but a good sized number of corn (Feed for the Cows and Chickens) was destroyed due to mold growth caused by an unusually cool and foggy July and August.
Further, we have been most recently bugged by the Glassy Wing Sharpshooter who is reported to enjoy just grapes. Well, I have a tiny garden of my own, and I discovered that that Sharpshooter has a slightly larger diet than one may think.
The fact of the matter is that we are still not able to keep up with the needed production of food, and worse, we are losing the war.
Klamath California is dried out and turned into a Dust Bowl because Environmentalists are worried that a certain species of fish in the water ways up there will dye off. Thus all the farm water is diverted to support this single species of fish.
While hundreds of acres dry up and blow away, we are assured that that fish survives.
Closer to my home. 5 years ago I lived in Rural Modesto. When I moved in here 6 years ago I could take my dogs across the street and they had 75 acres of grapes and Almonds to romp in.
Today that 75 acres of land supports 150 poorly built, two story houses on postage stamp lots. The neighborhood is so new it will not show up on maps for a few more years.
Down the street from me another 35 acres of Walnut trees has been felled, plowed and right now they are pouring asphalt for the new suburban streets.
Turlock, Just down the Freeway from us a piece, It has doubled in size during the past 10 years. It and Ceres are estimated to merge during the next decade. Thats a lot of acruculture land being paved over - It takes me 20 minuts to drive to Rulock at an average speed of 45 miles per hour.
The plot of land between Modesto and Ceres was a wide expanse of green 5 years ago, today it is shopping malls and horrid ugly, cheaply constructed suburban dwellings (honestly, does the American family really need 5 bed rooms and high vaulted ceilings and three car garages?)
No, the Earth can not continue to sustain us.
Cattle need 5 acres per cow. A cow weighs in at 1000 pounds (roughly) of meat. Figuring a 1/4 pound of meat twice a day per individual (Which is a very conservative number) one cow can feed 4000 people. It takes 62 500 cows to feed America its generous portion of cow per day. ( assuming 250 million americans eat 1/2 a pound of beef a day)
That means 22 812 500 cows per year, which takes up 570 312 500 acres per year to raise enough cow to feed America - alone.
I think we can safely reduce the 4.8 billion fed to 4 billion even. with this added cow factor.
Anyone who believes for a second that science and technology are the answer to the problem are greatly deceived.
Most of the American people live in cities and wouldn't know a farm if it reached out and slapped them. Most Americans have no idea what healthy soil looks like, and I know they would be hard pressed to tell you if a crop is healthy, sick, or should be plowed under and started again.
I have been raising food for the summer months on a spot of land 18' by 16' for two people. it has required that I produce 27 cubic feet of compost annually (A cube 3 feet to a side) to keep the soil strong and fertile (Most of California's Central valley is sand, low in good soil - Most Farmers have had to import top soil, compost and spread chemical fertilizers to make things grow).
I am hard pressed (through natural means) to get 2/3 of my crop to the table. I do not use chemical fertilizers, pesticides of herbicides. Thus 1/3 of the crop is grown for the insects and natural pests of the area.
If we farmed like we should- conservatively - we would not be able to produce half the food we do.
Over population is a serious threat to our species (and the rest of the world) Though tonnes of food may be rotting on the ports, I assure you that those tonnes are small compared to what the earth can sustain naturally.
If push comes to shove, we can support 4 billion through natural means, if we reduced our daily intake of meat to less than 10% of present consumption and if we are able to regain the vast tracts of land we have destroyed through over farming and mono-culture. IF that is a big IF - since the actual numbers of destroed crop land are actually reported smaller than what I have seen here in my neck of the woods. Politicians hate to be truthful to us, especially when it comes to our Number One industry.
Large tracks of land are destroyed each year - This is why the Amazonian Rain forest is being hacked and burned - because the people down there are using Western Methods to farm the land.
it is why Africa is drying up and blowing away - because again, Western Farming methods have been used and have added to the drought conditions.
No, and No again, The earth can not and should not be forced to sustain 6+ billion people.
It was conservatively estimated that the correct number of human beings to live full and happy lives and still maintain our level of technology is 1 billion souls on earth.
That means we need 5 more earths - We are destroying the only one we have -
David
02-13-03, 01:48 PM DvdGStwrt As for that 18 year abortion plan, its called sarcasm, and shows just how murder is murder either way you cut it - I hope you understand that.
02-13-03, 02:37 PM Bibleman David, I thought there was a touch of sarcasm in the post about abortion, but I needed to say what I said anyway. As to the points brought out in the post of 1:46 PM, I couldn't agree more: Humans can never fix all the problems they have caused. I was trying to point out that even now, though, the earth can support more people than it does. And also true, that cannot go on forever without intervention. That is why God promises in Revelation 11:18 that he will destroying those who are destroying the earth. It can and will be made to produce all we need forever: Isaiah 35:1, 2, 7; Psalm 72:16. He has the power to prevent procreation from occurring to the point of overpopulation. He will also put a stop to war: Psalm 46:9 says: "He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire." Compare Isaiah 2:4.
02-13-03, 02:42 PM babthrower Dvd, some states allow 70-year abortions!
In my darker moments I'm afraid you are right. Those who refuse to admit we are animals, and not exempt from the natural laws which constrain animals, use denial
- We don't have a problem, or
- We have a problem, but it's grossly exaggerated, or
- We have a problem, but the solution is to obey the lord and have more children and repent our sins and if we could for once kill all of our enemies, with the lord's help
and so on.
In those dark moments, I remember that all species die out eventually, and that human existence is limited no matter what we do.
But in my lighter moments, which is most of the time, I think about the human things that I love, and the tremendous human potential that will be lost if we become extinct or sink back into tribalism or savagery.
But perhaps our species is fatally flawed. We have good brains, but we also have an emotional response to challenge, which can be a regression into formulaic answers. And formulas are not enough. To overcome our savage past we also need to see the world with clear eyes, and apply fresh thinking.
Maybe the 80% are too heavy a burden to drag along with us.
I hope not. I would like to die believing that there is a positive future for our species.
Some of our most revered guidelines are rooted in blind instinct.
Which guidelines, specifically?
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
I like to think that God is to some degree controlling each and every brain on the planet. So I adopt a trusting, wait and see attitude. Although most people likely think such thoughts on my part make me off the wall, realize that God does not show His hand to everyone. He has shown it to me, I am happy to say, and I know that to think any other way of God's power is the height of stupidity and vanity.
Absolutely. Just because it is instinctive does not make it right or good.
quote:Do you think humans can overcome instinct?
Depends on the instinct, and the person.
I think that instinct must be balanced with common sense. The mother in your first example is certainly displaying an instinct to care, but she is not displaying common sense.
Sex certainly is an instinct, and a very appealing one. Instinct must be balanced with understanding. Sex for the sake of sex is all fine and good, but people must be aware of the consequences of their actions and be prepared to accept those responsibilities. If they are not ready to have children, or to be diseased, they must practice safe sex, or simply not have sex. If, perchance, a woman should find herself pregnant when she is unready or unwilling to be so, she is not without options, but ultimately it is her own personal choice what to do. To abort or not to abort should not be a matter of law or of religion, it should be a matter of personal belief and choice –a belief and choice that is one’s own and never forced on another person.
And as to the hunting instinct, I must say that I, personally, have never had the desire to hunt and kill animals. I like my meat plucked and shaved and wrapped in plastic, thank you. Many people hunt, but I think a lot of it has more to do with competition and machismo than instinct for the kill.
quote:Instinct guided by intelligence, such as we find in humans, can do a little better, I think.
I think so, too.
Posts: 4535 | Location: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
