Yeah, would you say lying is immoral? Let's discuss.

First, one must define "immoral." Then he/she must defend the finding with rationale. Then one must consider the effects lying has on a given situation; perhaps sometimes positive, and sometimes negative. Then consider the definitions of positive and negative.......

So do you think that if lying has a positive effect, it would be less immoral than if lying has a negative effect? Or is lying still lying either way?

Abraham and Isaac lied in order to avoid murder and rape (Gen. 12:11-13; 20:2; 26:6,7).

In Egypt, the Hebrew midwives lied to save Hebrew babies (Exodus 1:15-21).

Rahab lied to save the spies (Joshua 2:4-5).

During World War II some Christians were hiding Jews in their basement. When the German soldiers came and asked if they were hiding out any Jews, these Christians felt obligated to tell the "truth." Their own personal purity as "truthful persons" was more important to them than the lives of these people.

Under ordinary circumstances a person has an obligation to speak truthfully. However, we are not obligated to aid evil men to steal from, kill or rape another person. In such cases truth-telling is not a virtue but moral cowardice.

DD

I feel that "moral" is only a abstract idea that can't be used as a yardstick against actions and thoughts.

That said, if one were to apply the common usage of the word "moral", then one could say that the basic premise is to do more good than harm to the world and your fellow man. If that is the premise, then it would follow that whether or not a statement is "truthful" (given that "truth" is an imaginary construct in the guise of an emperical reality) is irrelevant, and the only judgement of the morality of an action, word, or thought is the intended and actual results it causes.

Gosh, this could turn into a long philosophical argument.

I have a gut feeling that most of us don't really want to come out and say "lying is immoral" because most of us do it on a regular basis!

Some examples, each of which serves a purpose:

At a restaurant where the food was poor:

Cashier: "How was everything?"
Most Customers: "Fine."

While preparing for a dinner party:

Wife: "Does this dress make me look fat?"
Typical Husband: "No, honey, it's rather flattering."

Later, at the dinner party:

Hostess: "Why, don't you look stunning in that dress!"

Negotiating for a dream house (2 lies):

Realtor: "I don't think they'll accept anything less than full price for the house."
Buyer: "That's OK. There's another one we like just as well for a little less money."

In a retail store:

Salesman: "Can I help you?"
Customer (totally lost): "No."

I think it is simplistic nonsense to try to categorize lying as either moral or immoral.Distorting the facts can run the gamut from the most scurrilous cruelty to the most selfless consideration of others. And I'm sure that every thinking adult can either recall or imagine having made use of lies that fit either or both extremes.

"Of course I lie to people. But I lie altruistically - for our mutual good. The lie is the basic building block of good manners. That may seem mildly shocking to a moralist - but then, what isn't?"
Quentin Crisp

That is the way I have felt about a 'lie', but was unable to say it with as much wit.