Since the original thread is thick with political discussion, I thought I'd repost my question here:
"The sports drink could be combined with a peroxide-based paste to form a potent 'explosive cocktail,' if properly done, said a U.S. counterterrorism official." (CNN) Can somone explain the basic chemistry involved?
Posts: 1895 | Location: U.S. | Registered: 06-03-02
Amen to that, Professor. (Methos, where are you?)Just what is the chemistry involved? We do have some simple explanations in the papers here.
British newspapers were giving great details of the chemistry involved and listing ingredients but they've now adopted self-censorship on this question, doubtless thinking it unwise to publicise just how easy it might be to try. So we now can't help you. Today one chemist is quoted giving a mixture of ammonium nitrate and sawdust to make a home-made bomb.It appears that the presence of organic material in the drink you cite helps matters as it does in the sawdust example. The liquids mentioned have included acetone mixed with hydrogen peroxide. Acetone is in nail-varnish remover and hydrogen peroxide is a form of bleach so they are both common in households and widely available.An improved version of this mixture is TATP, triacetone triperoxide, which the Daily Mail tells us is nicknamed 'Mother of Satan' and is the explosive of choice for suicide bombers. This is made from drain cleaner, bleach and acetone nail-varnish remover. An acid, such as a splash of lemon juice, may be added as a catalyst.
The two ingredients are an oxidant and a fuel. Even some commercial explosives come as two ingredients which are mixed and then detonated by an electrical charge, says the Mail. They are mixed just prior to detonation and the charge from an i-pod or laptop computer battery is more than enough to detonate them.
I've been puzzling over this one myself. Peroxides are potent oxidizers and some organic ones can be explosive all on their own. The problem is that the explosive ones tend to explode rather easily.* My guess is the terrorsits would be bringing a relatively inert peroxide on board so that it would make it onto the plane without blowing them up. What I'm unsure of is the sports drink. There are 3 possibilities that I can think of: 1) Something in the sports drink catalyzes the reaction. Sports drinks do contain metals, but I don't know that any of the particular ones can catalyze the reaction. 2) Something in the drink reacts with the peroxide to form a less stable peroxide. This is the idea between mixing acetone and hydrogen peroxide. The triacetone peroxide that is formed is very unstable. I have no idea what in the sports drink would be involved. 3) Something in the sports drink acts as fuel for the reaction.
To be honest, I have trouble believing all of the above. I have read the quote Professor cited, but I have also read that it was a substance that would be disguised as a sports drink. I lean towards thinking this official misspoke or misunderstood.
*We use fume hoods to contain flammable and/or poisonous gases. The 2 things we are specifically not allowed to use in these hoods are peroxides and peroxide-forming compounds because they tend to crystallize in the ducts and explode.
There's more buzz on the internet about this now. I've found some articles that are all speculative to some degree. Here are some selected excerpts, some of which overlaps with what FredPuli posted above (thanks, Fred).
Favorites [compounds employed by terrorists] include triacetone triperoxide (TATP) and nitroglycerin, the components of which are individually harmless, but dangerous when combined.
Neither of these is easy to work with, however. TATP is an atypical explosive, relying as it does on the formation of four gas molecules for every solid TATP molecule when triggered--a powerful "entropy burst," as researchers have called it. But TATP is relatively unstable--simply hitting the powder can set off the reaction--and it requires some time to produce the powerful compound. Terrorists would have to blend the constituent chemical brew and then wait for the more explosive powder to precipitate over the course of the next day, according to Tour, making it unlikely to be made on board a flight, although the brew itself is also dangerous.
One possibility is triacetone triperoxide, or TATP, which may have been used in the London Underground bombings and in the alleged shoe bomb. Last month, a student in Texas City, just south of Houston, died when he created some in his apartment and it literally blew up in his face. TATP can be readily made from hydrogen peroxide, acetone, and a small amount of acid, typically sulfuric acid. (I'm not giving anything away to mention these ingredients -- they are widely known.) It takes hours to crystallize out of solution, but the New York Times reported that a bomb-maker would not need crystals; the solution itself could be detonated.
The most obvious liquid explosive would be one containing nitrates, azides, or nitro-containing compounds, experts say...But the natural breakdown-products of these liquids contain ammonia, which carries a strong aroma. Even if the liquids had not had much time to breakdown, there would be enough ammonia present for sniffer dogs to detect it, he adds.
I'm hoping methos or another of our chemists can make some sense of this.
What about that bottle of 3% hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) in my first-aid cabinet? Too dilute? Or should I be storing it in an underground bunker?
Posts: 1895 | Location: U.S. | Registered: 06-03-02
When are they going to stop people from bringing mentos and diet coke on planes?
Isn't it possible that they were meaning that someone had disguised another chemical as a sports drink? The coloring of sports drinks would provide a good mask for a chemical... but I know nothing about this sort of thing.
Posts: 3038 | Location: USA | Registered: 06-04-02
Originally posted by aminator2002: Isn't it possible that they were meaning that someone had disguised another chemical as a sports drink? The coloring of sports drinks would provide a good mask for a chemical... but I know nothing about this sort of thing.
That is what other information has indicated. It is this one quote that differs. That is why I think that the official being quoted was most likely mistaken.
Actually, I have read that they thought they were going to put the chemical in a separate section at the bottom of the bottle, but match its color to the sports drink at the top. That way, they could "prove" it was really sports drink by taking a sip, as people are sometimes made to do.
Even pre-9/11, the sipping thing sometimes happened. In college, someone I was travelling with had a fish in a sports drink bottle. You would think that the live fish would be some indication that the liquid (water) wasn't poisonous, but security made him drink from the bottle anyway.
Explosives aren't really my thing, but I suspect the 3% H2O2 is too dilute to be much use.
I did hear that it was possible that some drinks, if the outside of the container was opaque, could contain a false bottom - therefore people could drink freely, and carry the explosive in the bottom of the container.
New Scientist today gives the answer to the mystery of explosives made with sports drinks. It traces the story to CNN: " A senior congressional source said it is believed the plotters planned to mix a British sports drink with a gel-like substance to make a potent explosive" (Professor's quote above seems a variant of this) The magazine agrees with methos and says that 'boring old conventional chemistry' doesn't suggest any such interesting reaction. Even terrorist Britain's sports drinks contain no more than sugars, water, sweeteners, colour, preservatives and so on. The magazine concludes that it is the container, not the drink, that could be of value in hiding some chemical to make explosive.
The paper notes that Chinese whispers soon spread. This quote was given, uncorrected and unexplained, in papers as distant and diverse as The Hindu of Chenni, India, and The Australian of Sydney.
'According to the respected and irreverent British technology publication The Register, the plot--if it existed--was a joke. Smuggling the component parts of triacetone triperoxide (TATP)--the liquid explosive we've been told was the object of the wannabe jihadis' vengeance fantasies--and successfully mixing them into a brew powerful enough to bring down a plane would require skills far beyond the capabilities of, well, anyone.
"First," wrote The Register, "you've got to get adequately concentrated hydrogen peroxide. This is hard to come by, so a large quantity of the three per cent solution sold in pharmacies might have to be concentrated by boiling off the water...Take your hydrogen peroxide, acetone, and sulfuric acid, measure them very carefully, and put them into drink bottles for convenient smuggling onto a plane. It's all right to mix the peroxide and acetone in one container, so long as it remains cool. Don't forget to bring several frozen gel-packs (preferably in a Styrofoam chiller deceptively marked "perishable foods"), a thermometer, a large beaker, a stirring rod, and a medicine dropper. You're going to need them.
"It's best to fly first class and order champagne. The bucket full of ice water, which the airline ought to supply, might possibly be adequate...Once the plane is over the ocean, very discreetly bring all of your gear into the toilet. You might need to make several trips to avoid drawing attention. Once your kit is in place, put a beaker containing the peroxide/acetone mixture into the ice water bath (champagne bucket), and start adding the acid, drop by drop, while stirring constantly. Watch the reaction temperature carefully. The mixture will heat, and if it gets too hot, you'll end up with a weak explosive. In fact, if it gets really hot, you'll get a premature explosion possibly sufficient to kill you, but probably no one else.
"After a few hours--assuming, by some miracle, that the fumes haven't overcome you or alerted passengers or the flight crew to your activities--you'll have a quantity of TATP with which to carry out your mission. Now all you need to do is dry it for an hour or two."
The conclusion is clear: "Certainly, if we can imagine a group of jihadists smuggling the necessary chemicals and equipment on board, and cooking up TATP in the lavatory, then we've passed from the realm of action blockbusters to that of situation comedy."'www.commondreams.org
Good job then that a conspiracy conviction does not depend on the feasability of the agreed action Happily it's no defence to say that, unbeknown to you,what you agreed to do could not have produced the intended consequences.
Happily it's no defence to say that, unbeknown to you,what you agreed to do could not have produced the intended consequences.
