Why does every political leader and news correspondent say we live in a Democracy? The Constitution says we have a Republic. The founding fathers considered Democracy to be a form of tyranny. Why do they work so hard to make us think we have a Democracy? What's the difference? ***************************************************** 09-21-03, 02:32 AM JohnGalt It first started in 1917 when President Woodrow Wilson uttered his infamous line, "The world must be made safe for democracy" in his War Message to Congress. Prior to that, no other President (with the possible exception of Taft) ever used the word "democracy" in any State of the Union Address. Not only does the word "democracy" not appear anywhere in the US Constitution, but it also does not appear in any of the 50 state constitutions. And the Founders of the US absolutely despised the idea of a democracy. They hated it and feared it.
Ironically, the very military men that President Wilson was sending overseas to fight for "democracy" would have the following definitions of democracy vs. republic in their U.S. War Department Training Manual No. 2000-25, dated November 30, 1928:
DEMOCRACY: "A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression. Results of mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy."
REPUBLIC: "Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights, and a sensible economic procedure. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass. Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment and progress. Is the 'standard form' of government throughout the world. A Republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of (1) an executive and (2) a legislative body who, working together in representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation, all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures and are required to create (3) a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their governmental acts and to recognize (4) certain inherent unalienable rights. Take away any one of those four elements and you are drifting into democracy."
As for why so many people erroneously think the US is (or should be) a democracy: Ignorance is one aspect. Government-run schools have done a horrible job of teaching history. Also apathy. Most Americans simply don't care about their political system, as long as they get to watch Survivor or read the latest gossip about Ben and J-Lo's wedding plans. Another reason is that many people want the US to be a democracy in order to push their political agenda on the unwashed masses - this goes for both Liberals and many Conservatives.
In a democracy, all that needs be done is convince 51% of the voters (not the entire population - just the tiny few who vote) that "there oughta be a law", and the rest of the population (even if it is a true majority) must bow to the will and give in . . . or give up their life liberty and/or property. And that's exactly where we are now- sliding downhill into a pure democracy further every day.
Ben Franklin was right and prophetic when he said he gave us a Republic if we can keep it. We couldn't and we didn't.
09-21-03, 03:00 AM billmasters I guess we all know where JohnGalts loyalties are. To compare Democracy to communism and a republic to what is best described as a Democracy is absurd.
Democracy: A government where the people rule. Republic: A government disguised as a democracy where the government rules under false pretenses.
09-21-03, 04:13 AM DorianGreyed If I read Galt's post correctly, the definitions were not his, but the US War Department's. Please correct me if I am wrong.
09-21-03, 05:30 AM FredPuli There is no democracy anywhere in the Western world and probably has not been for many hundreds, perhaps thousands of years.
This stuff about 'no mention of democracy' is based on innocent ignorance of whst the word means or meant. Of course there isn't. Classically educated people know now and knew then that 'democracy' is the word for the form of government of the Ancient Greeks in Athens. They learned Latin and Greek and that history.
The founding fathers knew that. The writers of the 1928 manual above knew it. (Two of your presidents were so adept at cllassics that they could write Greek with one hand while writing Latin with the other !) It was how the word was, correctly, understood in the past
Consider :
#1 A system where every single decision in government; big, small, middling; is decided by a public ballot of the whole electorate, every voter. Have a tax ? Vote now. Go to war ? Vote now. Repair the main street ? Vote now. Remove someone's citizenship or exile them? Vote now. Repaint the City Hall ? Vote now.
#2Where every public official is amateur.
#3 Every public official,of thousands of them, is chosen by lot, at random, just as we choose juries ( but without screening).It's because that was best decided not by the people but by chance, so all had the equal opportunity to serve .
That is Democracy. The key is #1. Decisions were made by the citizens voting on each; there was no 'government' to decide matters, no 'Them and Us'; no White House policy; no prerogatives; no parties. So it was in a sense 'mob rule' but in reality of course only male citizens of the City could vote ; these were rather better educated and interested in the status quo, good rule and peace, than the humblest workers might be: slaves could not vote.
So when they talked of 'democracy' they were not talking about anything like the current misuse of the noun by some. We should properly talk of our Western governments being 'democratic'; having attributes of a democracy; not being 'democracies'.
So that's why you'll find great men from America's history speaking against 'democracy' and why there's no mention of it in constitutions; it equates , reasonably enough , to government by the majority of a mass who happen to be voting on any issue, any decision at that moment as the mood or their composition dictates at the time. It is not about decisions being made by elected representatives whose power lasts for a term and who may make decisions daily within their general remit
The word is from Greek for 'government by the local people'.
A republic may be democratic, it may not; it may be government by only a select few individuals, for example. In neither case is it a democracy.
09-21-03, 08:39 AM JohnGalt
quote:Originally posted by billmasters: I guess we all know where JohnGalts loyalties are. To compare Democracy to communism and a republic to what is best described as a Democracy is absurd.
As DG pointed out, it was not my definition. It was the US War Department's back in 1928.
As DG pointed out, it was not my definition. It was the US War Department's back in 1928.
And it has nothing to do with my loyalties. It has to do with historical fact. The US was founded as a Constitutional Republic by people who neither liked nor trusted Democracies. That's a fact. That's history. Granted, I do like the concept of a Constitutional Republic much better than a Democracy as a form of government. In my humble opinion, I like the idea of the rule of law protecting everyone's rights instead of knee jerk emotionalism of the "majority" causing some people to enforce their will (however well intentioned) on a disagreeing minority, just because the "majority" think or have been told "it's for their own good."
\Com"mu*nism\, n. [F. communisme, fr. commun common.] A scheme of equalizing the social conditions of life; specifically, a scheme which contemplates the abolition of inequalities in the possession of property, as by distributing all wealth equally to all, or by holding all wealth in common for the equal use and advantage of all.
Now tell me the above definition doesn't fit the modern day Democratic Party. If the shoe fits...
And to drive home the point, the related terms of "communsim" in the Thesaurus lists the following:
bipartisanship, Bolshevism, Castroism, centralism, coaction, coadjuvancy, coadministration, coagency, cochairmanship, codirectorship, collaboration, collaborativeness, collective farm, collectivism, collectivity, collegiality, collusion, commensalism, common effort, common enterprise, common ownership, communal effort, communalism, communion, Communist Information Bureau, Communist Party, communitarianism, community, complicity, concert, concord, concordance, concurrence, constitutionalism, cooperation, cooperative society, cooperativeness, democracy, democratic. . .(Emphasis added.)
Likewise, the thesaurus lists "communism" as a related word to "democracy."
Don't blame me for the definitions. You should blame the Soviet Union, Castro, Communist China, North Korea, etc. for giving communsim a bad name.
09-21-03, 10:12 AM aminator2002 So what if I watch Survivor... :P That does NOT mean I'm apathetic.
And anyway, the Ben and J-Lo thing is over now... where have you been John?
09-21-03, 12:12 PM JohnGalt
quote:Originally posted by aminator2002: So what if I watch Survivor... :P That does NOT mean I'm apathetic.
There's nothing wrong with watching it. But far too many people consider such things far more important than other, truly more important, things in life. More people can name the characters on such TV shows than name their own Congressional Representatives, Senators or truly important facts of history. Such people should heed these words of Pericles, who, in 430 BC said, "Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you."
The mere fact that you read and post on such a discussion boards as this proves you are more attune to your world than most Survivor viewers. But, unfortunately, you are the exception, not the rule.
09-21-03, 01:04 PM methos John's comments about apathy reminds me of the recent poll asking responants to name democratic candidates for president. I've forgotten the exact percentage that could, but it was an astoundingly low number that could name even one candidate, even among democrats.
P.S. What is the thesaurus? The one I use (Roget's) doesn't list democracy under communism or communism under democracy. It does, however, list communistic as an antonym to democratic.
09-21-03, 01:40 PM JohnGalt
quote:Originally posted by methos5000: P.S. What is _the_ thesaurus? The one I use (Roget's) doesn't list democracy under communism or communism under democracy. It does, however, list communistic as an _antonym_ to democratic.
This Thesaurus entry for COMMUNISM, lists "democracy", "democratic" and "democratism" as related terms.
09-21-03, 06:33 PM methos First, let me say that I agree that this is not a true democracy, and that I agree that it shouldn't be.
That said, I notice that your link also lists republicanism and constitutionalism as 'related terms.'
09-21-03, 08:58 PM aminator2002 Does it NOT list something as a related term??? glad to see Nazism, Synergy, joining of forces, wow... the list goes on and on.
I'm pretty sure that we could make Bush into a communist using that Thesaurus ! Big Grin
I mean jeez how many things can be related terms to Communism....
Oh and John... very glad to see you still have your sense of humor Wink Of course my post about Survivor was a joke .... oh well.... guess I need to learn my representatives names and be more funny so JohnGalt will know when I'm kidding. Wink
11-30-03, 10:53 PM Paul "Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation".
- Karl Marx, 1848 author of "The Communist Manifesto"
12-01-03, 12:23 AM DorianGreyed "The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
Thomas Jefferson, noted Virginian 12-01-03, 12:29 AM
DorianGreyed "As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."
George Washington, another noted Virginian
12-01-03, 12:33 AM DorianGreyed "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Hermann Goering, noted Nazi
12-01-03, 04:14 PM gatman When the people become directly involved we end up with things like
An admendment to the Florida state constitution mandating better living conditions for pregnant pigs.
An admendment to the Florida constitution mandating the construction of a high speed rail serving Miami, Orlando, Tampa, Jacksonville, and Tallahassee. No mention of the estimated cost (7 billion at the time) in the admendment or any funding sources. Nor ridership or who benefits beside Disney. Ok there is no one else on that.
The California recall election, prop 13 and numerous other limits and demands on government.
My wish is that there could be a test for issue awareness and action/result for voting priveledges. Barring that may the Republic save us from ourselves.
12-01-03, 07:29 PM AMoore
quote:Originally posted by Paul: "Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation".
- Karl Marx, 1848 author of "The Communist Manifesto"
Note that even Marx never forsaw the possibility of a government running a continuously increasing debt, indefinitely. "No money in the treasury? Good, we're safe for another year!"
Of course, eventually we go the way of other nations that have tried that. The Chinese empire. The Russian Empire. The Ottoman Empire. The USSR...
Alan Moore
12-02-03, 04:34 AM Fourbrick The same source as John Galt quotes, also gives Republicanism as one of Communisms's definitions.(A little bit further down the page than John managed to reach). Guess what.....you're all Commies!
12-02-03, 010:38 AM DorianGreyed John stopped at Webster's 1913 Dictionary definition. Typical of John, he gives the truth, but not the whole truth, especially if the whole truth would not serve his purpose, but would serve to cast doubts about what he says. Below are a few other "Related Terms" that John somehow forgot to list. (I started the list so you could see just where John stopped. Interesting stopping point, is it not?)
cooperation, cooperative society, cooperativeness, democracy, democratic centralism, democratism, dialectical materialism, duet, duumvirate, ecumenicalism, ecumenicism, ecumenism, esprit, esprit de corps, fascism, federalism, fellow feeling, fellowship, feudalism, feudality, governmentalism, harmony, imperialism, iron curtain, joining of forces, joint effort, joint operation, kibbutz, kolkhoz, Maoism, Marxian socialism, Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, mass action, monarchism, morale, mutual assistance, mutualism, mutuality, national socialism, Nazism, neofascism, octet, parliamentarianism, parliamentarism, pluralism, political principles, pooling, pooling of resources, profit sharing, public ownership, pulling together, quartet, quintet, reciprocity, republicanism, revisionism, royalism, septet, sextet, sharecropping, socialism, solidarity, Stalinism, state ownership, statism, symbiosis, synergism, synergy, team spirit, teamwork, Titoism, town meeting, trio, triumvirate, troika, Trotskyism, united action
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