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Picture of DorianGreyed
Posted
I just read this at MSNBC.com:
"Arando pointed out that Spain is the only country in the European Union which provides even illegal immigrants with health insurance, education and welfare benefits.
Last year the country received nearly 600,000 immigrants, which is more than any other member of the European Union. Although, it should be noted that Spain may have one of the highest growth rates of immigrants, their numbers are still not the largest on the continent." - MSNBC.com

I find it amazing that Spain can do this, especially in light of the US's apparent inability (or unwillingness) to offer health care for all of its citizens.
Here are some statistics from the
CIA Fact Book

SPAIN
Population: 40,280,780 (July 2004 est.)
Literacy: (definition: age 15 and over can read and write) - total population: 97.9%
Unemployment: 11.7%
Gross Domestic Product: purchasing power parity - $885.5 billion (2003 est.)
Budget:
revenues: $330.7 billion
expenditures: $335.3 billion, including capital expenditures of $12.8 billion (2003 est.)

United States
Population: 293,027,571 (July 2004 est.)
Literacy: (definition: age 15 and over can read and write) - total population: 97%
Unemployment: 6%
Gross Domestic Product: purchasing power parity - $10.98 trillion (2003 est.)
Budget:
revenues: $1.782 trillion
expenditures: $2.156 trillion, including capital expenditures of NA (2003)

(Note: I am awaiting a call from the St. Louis Public Library regarding poverty statistics on each country. I was unable to find any on Spain, and I want figures from the same source.)

How can Spain provide health care for everyone within its borders when the US can't even provide it for just its citizens?
 
Posts: 17278 | Location: Lincoln Place, Granite City, IL, USA | Registered: 06-03-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Oh, sorry - I made a post but used your same source! Interesting thread...

Here is some very basic information on Spanish healthcare.
 
Posts: 7920 | Location: in the backwoods of North Carolina | Registered: 06-07-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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The St. Louis Public Library just called, and they ran into the same problem that I did; there seem to be no figures for Poverty in Spain. The little information I found seemed to imply that it doesn't exist, a situation I find unlikely. Figures I found for the percentage of US citizens living in poverty ranged from about 12.5% to about 17%. Those figures are a little up from when I checked a few years ago, which seems to make sense.
 
Posts: 17278 | Location: Lincoln Place, Granite City, IL, USA | Registered: 06-03-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Maybe there's a correlation between unemployment and poverty. That would seem to be between 2x to 3x here. So, what would you learn if the poverty rate in Spain is 24% to 36%?
 
Posts: 1799 | Location: Nashville, TN | Registered: 06-05-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Posts: 7646 | Location: On Vacation | Registered: 06-06-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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"Relative poverty figures show that between 15 and 25% of Spanish households are living below a poverty line of 50% of the average equivalent family income." - Juan's Link

The figures I read today put the US at about the same as that, using somewhat similar wording, about 18-20% living at less than 50% of the median family income. (Actually, if you take the exact wording, it looks even worse for the US. The Average family income is higher than the Median family income.) Yet somehow, Spain manages to both give all Health Care, and also have a 1.4% Annual Deficit, as compared to the US Annual Deficit of 21%. (Figures obtained by using the figures given by the CIA Fact Book, above) Can it be assumed that Spain's figures, like the US figures, contains some of the working poor?
 
Posts: 17278 | Location: Lincoln Place, Granite City, IL, USA | Registered: 06-03-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Could it be something to do with Spain's spending 1.2% of its GDP on 'defence', while the US spends 3.4%? www.iss-eu.org (pdf)
 
Posts: 7966 | Location: Canada | Registered: 06-03-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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On healthcare it is a question of attitude of mind and of cost of the services. Remember that in Spain, as in the UK, the vast bulk of the facilities used are paid for by the government and there is already in place a system of universal healthcare paid for from taxes. Further, in common with all of Europe, the attitude is that healthcare must be available as of right and not wholly dependent on whether or not an individual has or has not got private cover, for whatever reason, or whether e.g. they are past retirement age or not .It follows that Spain will offer healthcare to anyone resident there, whether or not they are resident there legally. I can't say for sure but I expect that Spain does have provision against health tourism . That is where people travel to the country, from outside the European Union, just to get free treatment for specific conditions or to get a specific procedure done and then promptly leave. At one time this was quite a problem because the qualification for treatment was low or badly monitored in some countries.

Spain seems to have taken the view that, if their government insists on proof of legal residence before providing healthcare, there may be sick people, illegals,resident long term in Spain who dare not present themselves for treatment.That would seem, to the government, wrong and contrary to the spirit that produced universal healthcare in the first place.The numbers involved may not prove to be very large. Not every illegal is going to need the care, after all. (This thinking may have been extended, lest, for example, the illegals fear that, if they present, they may lose any benefits they are illegally claiming).

You might think it all expensive. It isn't compared to what US insurers and the US government there pay out for its non-universal system.

The US spends c. 13.1% of her Gross Domestic Product on healthcare (2000 figure).The UK spent 7.3%. The typical European Union country spends similarly. I've no figure for Spain herself but those European figures I could find are around the 8% mark (France's is quite high at 8.8% )Those figures are totals, including private healthcare, not just government expenditure.

US spent $4,449 per head of population on healthcare in 2000. (UK $1747 and France $2051 ) Of the US figure only c45% is public expenditure, incidentally.

We cannot say whether the US system is value for money or not but , no doubt everything costs a lot more over there.

Incidentally the UK is unusual in that no money at all is demanded of the patient for treatment and this is regardless of their circumstances. Elsewhere, naturally, some categories of people are always exempted from contributing anything at all, though, in any case, treatment is not to be refused. In France, for example, the government sets the costs of treatment and pays 75% of the cost of the treatment of an employed person, looking to the employer, a private insurer or even the employee to pay the balance. This seems to have absolutely no effect on take up. It was intended originally to stop the wasting of doctors' time by people presenting with trivial complaints, which they could deal with themselves or by asking a pharmacist, and general time wasters. French people were reputed to be hypochondriacs, so this fear was understandable Smile (As it is there is still nothing to stop them touring around until they find a doctor whose opinion or whose practices they prefer; and they do. This is known as 'nomadisme' ) The French system is still one of the best in Europe, nomadisme or no. Incidentally my French doctor gave a strange insight into his patients. He says that they all expect him to take their blood pressure, quite regardless of the complaint they present with. It could be a sore ankle but unless he takes their blood pressure first he is not a real doctor in their, French, eyes and they regard him with some suspicion. At least it doesn't cost the system anything Big Grin

[Sources: WHO and the Center for Disease Control (of the US Department of Health)]
 
Posts: 8399 | Location: Newmarket, UK/ Antibes, S.France | Registered: 07-14-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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