Do you think the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism? What do you feel it stands for today? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 08-14-03, 03:44 PM DorianGreyed Yes, I feel it is a symbol of racism. I feel it stands for a group of rebellious states who waged war against the United States, and all that those states held dear. To those who see it as a monument to a heritage, I say that the heritage not only includes that rebellion, but the sons of that rebellion who have co-opted that symbol today to use as their banner of hate. Had they not done so, perhaps the flag would not be so controversial. If one's views do not include that hate, then take the symbol back from those who stole it from you. Refute their views publicly, denounce them.
[This message was edited by Doriangreyed on 08-14-03 at 04:49 PM.]
08-14-03, 03:47 PM aminator2002 Yes, I think it is a symbol of racism.
I think so because I think it is displayed by many in a manner that symbolizes a desire to go back to good ole days.
Here in Chicago, if you display a confederate flag it means you are white and hate other races. I have seen it in some windows of what most people would call "white trash"... to me they are poor, uneducated white people that think they are better than poor uneducated other people.
As far as the confederate flag in the south goes, I think it should have been banned after the Civil War. The South wanted to separate and we fought a war over it and they lost. They should not display symbols of seccession openly... do they want to fight again?
I think it's nonsense... of course it's racist. The old south included slavery and the confederate flag was the symbol of the folks that wanted to keep slavery... they got beat a long time ago and should have gotten rid of their flags then.
08-14-03, 07:09 PM frankvan Definitely!.Today it is a symbol of nostalgia on the part of those who long for the return of segregation, poll taxes, lynching - re-capture of "white supremacy". It is a relic that has come to mean ignorance, hatred, and insensitivity. Take it down!
08-14-03, 09:04 PM jusork No it's not a symbol for racism. It's a flag that represented the confederacy and the confederacy was not just pro-racism. The flag is basically a symbol of the independence of southern states and the south in general. If anybody who has this flag is racist, it is because it is their opinion. I don't know anybody with that flag who is racist either. The reason there is so much controversy around it is because some people see it as a symbol of oppression. That doesn't really make any sense however because slavery was normal at that time in every state. The only reason the north ended slavery was because they didn't need slaves with the new factories and methods.
[This message was edited by jusork on 08-14-03 at 09:13 PM.]
08-14-03, 09:23 PM honilov Oh yeah, it definitely is a symbol of racism. I think the only ones displaying them today are the more ignorant type of people. They aren't even worth the butter in their bread. (so to speak)
08-14-03, 09:39 PM DorianGreyed Thanks for clarifying that, jusork. Now I know that the "white trash" in Chicago are merely honoring a fine Tradition of rebellion, not slavery. And when crosses get burned around St. Louis by men with that flag on their bedsheets, it is in honor of what ? It can't be the independence of the southern states because they were never independent. They didn't win that war, remember?
08-14-03, 10:42 PM jusork
quote:Originally posted by Doriangreyed: Thanks for clarifying that, jusork. Now I know that the "white trash" in Chicago are merely honoring a fine Tradition of rebellion, not slavery. And when crosses get burned around St. Louis by men with that flag on their bedsheets, it is in honor of what ? It can't be the independence of the southern states because they were never independent. They didn't win that war, remember?
Well the racists in Chicago obviously don't see it as a symbol of the south. I suppose there will always be a few who see it as pro-slavery but it still is seen by most southerners who fly it as a symbol of the south. Just becuase it's the confederate flag though doesn't mean it still represents all that the confederacy believed in. The reference to the south is not specific, it's from a time when the south was completely on it's own and it's pretty much purely a symbol of the south in general, kind of like the republican and democratic parties are represented by an elephant and a donkey.
08-15-03, 12:05 AM DorianGreyed Neither the Republican Elephant nor the Democratic Donkey ever represented a rebellion against the United States government, but that flag did. Neither the Republican Elephant nor the Democratic Donkey ever represented slavery, but that flag did. I have never seen the Republican Elephant nor the Democratic Donkey on a bedsheet worn by men burning crosses, but I have seen that flag worn on bedsheets worn by men burning crosses. There are symbols, and there are symbols, and most know what that flag symbolizes.
In my original post, I challenged those who hold that flag dear to "take the symbol back from those who stole it from you. Refute their views publicly, denounce them." You have posted twice since then, but have not addressed that challenge.
Your statements at first, "It's a flag that represented the confederacy and the confederacy was not just pro-racism" and "The flag is basically a symbol of the independence of southern states and the south in general" seem to refute what you now say, that "Just because it's the confederate flag though doesn't mean it still represents all that the confederacy believed in." Further, you admit that the flag once stood for racism, among other things, as indicated by your words that I have shown in bold type above. You also at first stated that " The flag is basically a symbol of the independence of southern states and the south in general." Now you say "The reference to the south is not specific" and "it's pretty much purely a symbol of the south in general." One has to wonder exactly what you mean; you seem to be backing away from what you stated earlier.
Your statements that "The only reason the north ended slavery was because they didn't need slaves with the new factories and methods," and "...because slavery was normal at that time in every state," may be true, but that has nothing to do with what that flag stands for. It stands for, among other things, a group of states that fought a war against the government of the United States ( and lost), a desire to "return of segregation, poll taxes, lynching - re-capture of "white supremacy,' as Frank said, and it stands for slavery, whether you personally "don't know anybody with that flag who is racist" or not. Aminator said that the flag "should have been banned after the Civil War." While I do not think it should have been banned, I do think it should not be displayed on any government building. (Banning it from private use is, in my opinion, a violation of the First Amendment.)
Yes, it is, as you say, my opinion, that the flag is a racist symbol, and I think you will find that it is the opinion of the majority of Americans.
[This message was edited by Karrow on 08-15-03 at 07:36 AM.]
08-15-03, 12:05 PM jusork To explain what I meant, it symbolizes the south, the confederacy was the temporary collection of states, the southern states as a whole and on their own. That's the symbol of the flag, it's not specific so the views of the people(one of which is racism) that were apart of the confederacy are not thought of as part of what the flag represents for most of those who fly it. Some racist people my use it just to show their patriotism to the south and not intending it to mean anything about their racist views.
The Civil War was fought over whether or not slaves should be counted in the election, the north said no because they didn't use slaves anymore, the south had less population and wanted slaves to count and said yes. That's what the war started over.
I don't hold the flag dear, even if I did I wouldn't know where to find any of the people who stole the symbol to denounce them. Maybe there are people who would try to do that
08-15-03, 12:35 PM dogspit It does seem less than a coincidence that those who embrace that flag the closest invariably also seem enamored with that other "symbol of heritage", the swastika. The confederate flag is a blight on America, a reminder of centuries of the subjugation and exploitation of another race. It is an abomination that simply should be washed away like the foul stain that it is.
08-15-03, 01:54 PM DorianGreyed "...so the views of the people(one of which is racism) that were apart of the confederacy..." So slavery was apart from the confederacy? Or was it just racism that was not a part of the confederacy? In either case, I ask if you have informed the nation's (The United States, not some " temporary collection of states") historians of this? I am certain that they will want to know, because all the U.S. history books, other than the ones you have read, will have to be re-written.
"Some racist people my use it just to show their patriotism to the south and not intending it to mean anything about their racist views." I have no idea who you are trying to convince with that statement, but I assure you that the majority of the people that will accept that statement would not understand many of the words on this page. Tie a ribbon on that idea so that the boys at the sanitation plant will recognize it for what it is as it floats by. Further, Merriam-Webster's (MW) dictionary (above) defines patriotism as "love for or devotion to one's country." Please tell me what country the "Some racist people" are feeling so proud of. Wait, I forgot. You "don't know anybody with that flag who is racist." But then how do you know "what the flag represents for most of those who fly it" if you "don't know anybody with that flag who is racist."
"The Civil War was fought over whether or not slaves should be counted in the election, the north said no because they didn't use slaves anymore, the south had less population and wanted slaves to count and said yes. That's what the war started over." As in an earlier post, I ask what this has to do with what the flag stands for. Introducing ideas and facts that have no bearing on a point of discussion is usually the sign of a fool or a weak argument. I know from your posts in other areas that you are no fool, ergo, you know your position is weak.
"I wouldn't know where to find any of the people who stole the symbol to denounce them" See my comments in paragraphs one and two, although my final comment in paragraph two may now be open to debate.
Jusork, you have many facts at your disposal, and write well, if not logically, but you seem to think that intelligence is wisdom. It isn't. And you still need to work on MW's definition 2 of intelligence, which is "the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria."
[This message was edited by Doriangreyed on 08-15-03 at 02:02 PM.]
08-15-03, 06:22 PM Scotty [QUOTE]Originally posted by dogspit: It does seem less than a coincidence that those who embrace that flag the closest invariably also seem enamored with that other "symbol of heritage", the swastika. The confederate flag is a blight on America, a reminder of centuries of the subjugation and exploitation of another race. It is an abomination that simply should be washed away like the foul stain that it is.[/QUOTE
I think that the slaves were under the American flag much longer than they were under the Southern flag. Does this mean that the American flag should be removed also? They were exploited in every state of the union,why do we tend to forget this? This flag only lasted less than four years.1861-1865.
08-15-03, 06:51 PM jusork Woops, that first quote is suppossed to be 'a part' not 'apart'. Big Grin
"Further, Merriam-Webster's (MW) dictionary (above) defines patriotism as "love for or devotion to one's country." Please tell me what country the "Some racist people" are feeling so proud of."
Ok patriotism only refers to a country. How about just love for their region(that's what I meant)?
"Wait, I forgot. You "don't know anybody with that flag who is racist." But then how do you know "what the flag represents for most of those who fly it" if you "don't know anybody with that flag who is racist.""
Because they fly it for reasons other than racism.
"As in an earlier post, I ask what this has to do with what the flag stands for."
I said it because you sounded like the confederacy seceded because they wanted a slave nation. But then I guess it just comes down to how they see the confederacy.
08-15-03, 09:23 PM honilov Jusork, do you fly a confederate flag? If so, what are your reasons?
08-16-03, 12:18 AM dogspit Excellent point Scotty !
08-16-03, 02:25 AM DvdGStwrt The Confederate Flag:
It represents a time when a great nation was divided and nearly split in two over a lot more than just the slavery question (let it be known that industrialization had just started, slavery was already on the out being economically unsound - The Cotton gin just started catching on, it would have been a matter of a decade or so when Slavery would have been phased out simply because it was not a viable economic choice).
The confederate Flag represents the dead dreams and hopes of the Southern States who fought brave and true loyal to their beliefs and willing to die to become their own nation, a nation not of the Federation of America.
The Confederate flag waves over the graves of those young men who, believing that they were right, died fighting for their freedoms, their liberty and their understanding of right.
The Confederate Flag stands guard over the memories of the old south, the one that burned when Atlanta burned, the one that fell victim to the Carpet baggers. The one, for all of its wrongs, had its rights.
Yes, there are individuals and groups who believe that the Confederate flag is a symbol of white supremacy (Their freedoms illusion, only a dream, for their hatreds rule them supreme). But the issues that the Civil War were fought on were much, much more than just an issue of who was better.
It is the minds of men who make any flag into anything.
When I look upon the confederate flag I see a nation divided, a struggle which nearly rent the USA in two. I do not see black and white, I do not see the Slavery issue. I see a troubled country who had no choice but to go to blows insted of finding a middle ground to be a United States.
Others may (and do) look upon the Symbol of the Confederacy and see racism - These may not be as me, color blind, thus are unable to see the greater depth of human sorrow that flag represents.
David
08-16-03, 03:00 AM DorianGreyed Scotty, your point is valid and well taken. Nonetheless, the southern states, who never freed the slaves, fought under that the confederate flag. The United States, flying under the Stars and Stripes, did. Therein lies a huge difference.
Jusork, I have little to say to address your last post, which has four parts. In the first part, you correct a previous error of yours. In the second part, you admit to another error. The third part consists of you essentially saying you know something because you know it. That seems a poor answer to the question I asked. All I asked was how you knew. Surely that can't be too hard. The fourth part, you seem to err again, saying that I "sounded like the confederacy seceded because they wanted a slave nation." Please show me where I indicated that. When you stated the reason that the war started, I made no attempt to refute that reason. I actually agree that you stated one reason. But that still has nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is determining what the flag represents. Again, you used many words, but you fail to address the issue. You have written 60 lines, while Scotty wrote 6. Yet Scotty's 6 lines were to the point and your 60 lines weren't even close. Don't bother to show me where I indicated that "sounded like the confederacy seceded because they wanted a slave nation." Let me save all of us the time. You can't because I didn't. If you want to post something that is on point, I will be glad to address it, as I did Scotty's. But if you want to post non-pertinent facts and opinions, I see no need to respond.
08-16-03, 03:31 AM DorianGreyed Well said, David, and you changed my mind, on one point, at least. I now have no objection to that flag flying over the graves of those soldiers. But I still object to it over any other tax-supported building or place.
As far as being color blind, I am not. I have seen pictures of some of the former slaves; they were black, not white. I knew a man whose father was born a slave. He was a black man. You are certainly right when you said that the flag stands for many things, but among those things are slavery and an attack on the government of the United States.
By the way, the Tuskeegee Institute, which, among other things, kept track of lynchings in the United States since about 1880, reported that 1952 was the first year since they kept records that there were no lynchings. Do you want to guess under what flag that 1951 lynching was done? Just as the symbol for Nuclear Disarmament was co-opted by the Peace movement as is now know as the Peace Symbol, the confederate flag was long ago co-opted by hate groups. While there seem to be none of those groups near Jusork, they are nevertheless still here. Maybe that flag once belonged to honorable men; it doesn't now.
[This message was edited by Doriangreyed on 08-16-03 at 03:45 AM.]
08-16-03, 02:21 PM Scotty I think that the confederate flag has its place in history,and should be displayed at museums and monuments dedicated to the people who fought for their beliefs. I certainly do not think that it has a place on any public building in any State of the Union.
[This message was edited by Scotty on 08-16-03 at 02:30 PM.]
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
"The third part consists of you essentially saying you know something because you know it. That seems a poor answer to the question I asked. All I asked was how you knew. Surely that can't be too hard."
I understand. I said it because I have no way to explain how other people view something. I just find it hard to believe that everyone who flies the confederate flag is a racist and so I said because they don't fly it for racist reasons when you asked how can I know what the flag represents if you don't know any racists. Saying that seems as valid as you saying most people who fly the flag are racist. You seem to be basing it on news you hear.
To explain, most of the first posts in here seemed to believe the flag stood for the slavery during the confederacy and I responded saying it's more general. Then I said I suppose there are people who see it as racist but there is still more in the symbol than that and just because the history was racist does't automatically mean they were. Then you explained what it stood for and it sounded like just the bad history so I explained why it was fought. Then you asked what does this have to do with what it stands for [today]? And I realized that you were probably not talking about the history but how they see what the history represents from their perspective which I suppose could vary and is hard to know for sure and so I dropped it with "But then I guess it just comes down to how they see the confederacy". I also said pretty much the same idea Scotty said in my very first post and a condensed version of David's post everywhere I said "The flag is basically a symbol of the independence of southern states and the south in general." That's where I addressed the issue. But then again, I don't see how Scotty said any relevant facts about how people view the flag and I don't see David saying anything other than opinion. What's the difference?
Oh and no honilov, I don't fly it. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 08-16-03, 02:31 PM DvdGStwrt I think that the Confederate Flag should be Flown (below the Stars and Stripes) on government buildings as a reminder of where America has been.
Any society who forgets is history will repeat it. I have to wonder if the drive to remove the Stars and Bars is not an attempt (a poor one) to rewrite history and cause us forgetfulness.
As for those racists groups who adopt icons of history and pervert them, in the end the just and knowing will look upon these disgraces as what they truly are.
David
08-16-03, 02:33 PM Wildflower63 You northerners and westerners just don't get it! The confederate flag is a symbol of family heratage to those of us in southern states. The word slavery doesn't even cross our minds.
Let me try to explain the view of rednecks that proudly display this flag. Do you think they feel like getting the hell beaten out of them by displaying a symbol of race hatred? No, they don't. It is a culture and lifestyle of the common man/woman they are displaying in the southern states.
History pros can correct me where I'm wrong. The Civil War was not a war of slavery pro or con. Southern states were agricultural. Northern states were industrial. There were many disagreements with laws that were good for the north, which hurt the south and vice versa. Constant disagreement led southern agricultural states to want to divide. The west was still being explored and land was up for grabs at that time.
My dad has a Confederate flag hanging over the family room door. Redneck, yes. Racist, no. My family roots on both sides are from Kentucky farms. Kentucky people are the start of a southern accent. Kentucky to this day is an agricultural state.
Today we live in the suburbs of Cincinnati. You can actually see the city out my front door. Several generations ago, individuals left for employment opportunity that Cincinnati gave them. My parents each remember their grandparents farm and a drastically different way of life that they both came from. My parents are not racist. They would never display a hate symbol in their home. It is a rememberance of life down home. That's it.
08-16-03, 08:54 PM Wildflower63 I live in Kentucky, the northern most part that I can actually see the lights of Cincinnati from my front door. People migrated here because of southern lifestyle not wishing to go to Ohio, right across the river, but different.
We are discriminated against, us Kentucky people. We are asked when we went to the dentist last. We are asked if we are wearing shoes. Ohio people do look down upon us, although our education equals or exceeds theirs. We are the last of the southern states of the northern area. Many have southern accents. Those are now going further south. Ironically, we are not southern enough to be accepted by southern culture. We are considered Yankees by southern states.
When I was a kid, the southern accent stared approximately ten miles south of the Ohio River. Northern Kentucky is very different than the rest of the state. Here, we want the employment and educational opportunities that are not so valued in other areas of the state. What good does your MBA do if you live in a rural area? Not much. If you wish to continue living where you grew up, what's the point? None.
So, we get this lovely reputation of having sex with animals and relatives, not going to the dentist, not wearing shoes, and etc. Because we are white, we cannot speak out against the bias and discrimination of people from the state of Kentucky.
Black people can easily scream discrimination over the confederate flag that means something completely different to people of southern states or those who like the lifestyle. We are called racist only because a minority group claims the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism.
Excuse me, but, we are very much victims of discrimination. No one says a word. People from Kentucky just live with it and expect the negative connotation of being from this state. We are white. White trash as we are perceived by other people in differing parts of the country. So, it sure must be ok to assume we have sex with relatives and live in trailers parks. We must be ignorant racist also. Oh, we don't get dental care either. We meet potential marriage partners at family reunions. That's ok.
I would love to know why this is just fine to discriminate with such an acceptable, yet very insulting view of white people from Kentucky. All I have to do is get a job right across the river. Once people find out I'm from Kentucky, it's assumed that I am an ignorant hillbilly. It sure isn't ok if a minority group screams discrimination based on a singular aspect of both north and south, slavery.
I would have to guess that discrimination is only acceptable towards white people. We just have to put up with it. Minorities have a lot of support from northerners and westerners that have no clue what they are talking about.
08-16-03, 09:09 PM honilov Well, Wildflower, you asked the question, and you got your answers. Don't get too bent out of shape about it, because you knew a topic like this would bring controversial answers. Smile
I can feel ya, but only on total different happenings.
08-16-03, 11:38 PM Wildflower63 Honiluv, I understand what you are saying. Jusork is the only one from the south that I see posting on this topic. The rest are Yankees (northerners) and western people that don't have a clue about southern culture. Here is Jusork being eaten alive in a battle of words. The fact is, he is right. He is a southerner. He should know more about the culture than any northerner or westerner. I also know.
I only wanted to point out that discrimination does not end with race and religion. What about the discrimination I have experienced being white and from Kentucky where I am perceived as not getting dental care, being uneducated, having sex with my relatives, living in a trashy trailer park, and the list goes on.
I worked in the city of Cincinnati. At first my co-workers did not know where I was from. Well, just cross the bridge! That's where I'm from. As soon as they found out, I got the nose in the air, better than attitude along with stupid and insulting questions about being from Kentucky.
What is the southern person supposed to realistically do about such treatment out of complete ignorance? Are we supposed to riot for Redneck Rights and demand that we are a discriminated against, which we are, minority? No, we look at people with comments like that as ignorant and go on with our lives as we see fit.
I can assure you that no white person likes being called a redneck. But, the fact is, many are. We are just working people that like a different way of life than city people is all. The southern culture is vastly different than northern or western culture.
Are we supposed to cater to the ignorant and not display the Confederate flag because ignorant people think the Confederacy and southern way of life is all about hatred of the black race? No, we get enough flack for being hicks and hillbillies.
Just leave us rednecks that love the simple life alone. We are not racist. We simply live and love a different culture that northerners and westerners don't understand. Ignorance? People displaying the Confederate flag are not ignorant of what it means to them. The people calling them racist are the ignorant ones.
08-17-03, 09:53 AM jusork You know Wild, I think generalizations based on stereotypes are human nature. It's very hard not to generalize about something when you haven't seen it's diversity and exceptions. The most you can do is teach them.
08-17-03, 01:00 PM Scotty I have traveled the whole country,and believe me,people are the same wherever you go. You have rednecks,bigots and ignorant people in every State of the union. Don't worry about what the ignorant believe.
08-17-03, 01:12 PM FredPuli Wildflower, it may be no consolation but such misuse of a flag and such discrimination can occur pretty much anywhere.
My own wife, being Welsh, was sent, as young as possible, to elocution classes. The reason was that her parents, having a Welsh accent themselves, feared correctly that when she went to make her way in the world she would be a victim just as you are.Once she had an acceptable form of English accent she could pass unnoticed. It worked.
This is not simply a question of some snobbery in the 'middle classes' but of perception of the individual, of stereotyping by people of all backgrounds. The Welsh signified at best a strong socialist or communist, and at worst someone who, if male, had an unnatural interest in sheep, if female in her brother ! Naturally, offensive remarks and mockery along these lines would have followed as soon as she spoke ( she's known it happen simply if her origins became known). It is not confined to the ill-educated either; some quite educated people see themselves as 'wits' in their racism.
The English flag (the cross of St George) was long ago hijacked by racist white supremacists; attempts to do the same with the British flag have been a bit less successful.
What in the end is turning the thinking is simply exposure to Welsh accents and Welsh people in 'acceptable ' places.
The bigotry is based in ignorance. It is often reinforced by feelings of inferiority; it is satisfying to sneer at a stranger.
Now we have a national news reader on the BBC who is high profile; it is hard for bigots to condemn such a person entrusted with such a role. This one individual, who is fiercely Welsh at home, does a lot of good for the whole Welsh nation simply by being there as the voice of the BBC news.
We can hope that similar progress is made where you are.
08-17-03, 01:18 PM Wildflower63 I have traveled to different parts of the country myself. I can't say by visiting that I could fully comprehend a culture though. Can you?
Redneck does not equal racist.
08-17-03, 01:26 PM Scotty
quote:Originally posted by Wildflower63: I have traveled to different parts of the country myself. I can't say by visiting that I could fully comprehend a culture though. Can you?
Redneck does not equal racist.
No I cannot,and you are right,redneck does not mean racist,and rednecks reside everywhere,North,South,East,and West.
08-17-03, 03:47 PM Wildflower63 It really doesn't bother me the prejudice remarks I have heard from others. Actually my daughter brought up the subject of how people react when they find out you are from Kentucky. We moved to a nice, family oriented neighborhood on the east suburbs of Cincinnat. Of course, kids are going to ask the new kid where they moved from. She was shocked at the attitude from people she got. I had to completely agree with her. Adults aren't much different.
Neither of us are ashamed to say we are from Kentucky. We are aware that if we lied and said we were from somewhere in Ohio, no one would know the difference. But, ignorant assumptions and insults are made frequently. People don't hesitate to act like jerks either.
Who gets to pick our family, race, where we were born, what culture we were raised in? None of us. Diversity is what makes this country a great place. There are many blatant symbols of race hatred. Why would people display the Confederate flag if that is what they were trying to say? Today's society is not tolerant of that.
Don't think these people are trying to send some subtle secret message of race hatred. They aren't. They are saying, "I am a redneck. I love the simple life. Give me a six pack." It attracts others with similar views of a particular lifestyle that began as southern ways.
I believe it does mean something different today. It means I am a redneck. That's it. It has nothing to do with race other than the fact that rednecks tend to be white. It also means heritage for people of southern states.
08-17-03, 04:42 PM honilov Well, I've been discriminated against all my life, whether in the north or south and I don't give a ***. And speaking of the south, I spent 18 years growing up in Tennessee, so I've experienced it all.
By the way, I'm not ignorant, by a long shot, but I've associated with a lot of ignornat people. (then and now)
So, what does the Confederate flag mean? Again, I don't give a ***. Smile
08-17-03, 10:00 PM Wildflower63 That's the right attitude to take. Just because others are ignorant, doesn't mean you are.
08-18-03, 02:47 AM FredPuli Of course you could always join them ! The Duke of Wellington was born and raised in Ireland and his family could be properly regarded as Irish. When some innocent lady, seeking to make small talk, said to him " My Lord, you are Irish too, aren't you? " he replied indignantly " Madam. If I had been born in a stable I would not be a horse !"
His parents were dead by then; he was trying to distance himself from the Irish image, I suppose, and associate himself with their 'English' aristocracy and a more cultured image; he was not born to become a Duke but was created one .Somehow I don't find that line a very appealing one to take, but it's amusing in its own way !
08-18-03, 10:13 AM aminator2002 Wildflower...
I sympathize with what you put up with from Northerners, but as far as your question here goes I really think you are off by a tad bit.
Your parents may display that flag with purity of heart, but a lot of people do not. Furthermore, a lot of people see that flag as a symbol of something completely opposite of what you say it represents... most of those people are black and they feel that it represents the old days when they were lynched without any law enforcement to protect them. Your parents and others may fly it with some grand heritage in mind but I think you fail to recognize how hurtful this symbol may be to others.
I'm sorry that you feel victimized, but imagine for a second how a group of people from the south feel when presented with people who show a symbol of the past which everyone assures them is being put in the past. A past which when reparations are discussed everyone says is dead, but people are still flying a flag from that time... flying it proudly?
Sorry, but it would be just as dumb for me to say that as a German American I should be able to put up a Swastica for the pride that I feel in my ancestry.
Go ahead and feel the victim because people think you lack intelligence due to your accent or for all the inbreeding jokes, but don't pull any crap about me being ignorant because I'm just a Yankee and couldn't possibly understand. I will have you go talk to some southerners that live by me and fly that flag... they are the kind ones that are always out screaming at their neighbors who happen to be Mexican Americans.
I understand... that flag represents a country ripped apart, a war that cost thousands of lives, and represents a time in history that no one should want to return to. Call me a Damn Yankee if you want. Fly whatever flag you want but don't expect others to see it through your eyes.
08-18-03, 12:02 PM DorianGreyed "Saying that seems as valid as you saying most people who fly the flag are racist. You seem to be basing it on news you hear." - jusork.
Show me one time I said that I felt most people who fly the flag are racist. Try to get your facts straight. You seem to read my words like you read history books. You have avoided responding to my call to denounce those who co-opted that flag, made a dubious claim about not knowing any racist who flies that flag,repeatedly made mistakes (that you have admitted) in both definitions, and understanding, and now you imply that others are in need of your teaching???? ("You know Wild, I think generalizations based on stereotypes are human nature. It's very hard not to generalize about something when you haven't seen it's diversity and exceptions. The most you can do is teach them." ) You backed yourself into a corner talking about things you have little knowledge about and now cannot get out, so you evade issues, and now speak of teaching others who lack your experience. All I can tell you is that to find most of the people who lack your experience, you must go back one year to last year when you were in high school. Talk to the juniors and sophomores. Those students lack your experience. Teach them. But please don't teach them history. Save that for those of us who are trained and qualified to teach history.
David - You said " I think that the Confederate Flag should be Flown (below the Stars and Stripes) on government buildings as a reminder of where America has been." Would you like to the the flag of the Union Army flying along all the roads from Atlanta to the sea? The US was there, too. But that would really be offending some people's sensibilities, wouldn't it, even though it was a winning battle, brilliant strategy, and extremey effective tactics. Doing what he did saved his army lives, lives of soldiers of the Untied States. Further, if one is to follow your line of reasoning, different states need many flags flown. How about the Mexican Flag on California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and a few more to the north? (Texas will need a very tall flag pole.) The French Tri-color will have large representation, too, and at least 2 states should have the Imperial Russian flag. Let us not forget Hawaii, assuming that the peacable kingdom had a flag. Did the Norsemen have a flag? I think they deserve some recognition. But wait. I am speaking of other countries. In this case, it was not another country the US was at war with, was it? "Any society who forgets is history will repeat it. I have to wonder if the drive to remove the Stars and Bars is not an attempt (a poor one) to rewrite history and cause us forgetfulness." - David
Just who is trying to whitewash history, David? Who is trying to sweep slavery under the rug of tradition and heritage? You at least came out and denounced the racism. Until the vast majority do, until the south reclaims the flag by its actions, not a few lines here and there by far too many people, the flag is what is means to many of us.
"Do you think the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism? What do you feel it stands for today?" - Wildflower
"Yes, I feel it is a symbol of racism." - DorianGreyed "Yes, I think it is a symbol of racism"" -Aminator "Definitely!.Today it is a symbol of nostalgia on the part of those who long for the return of segregation, poll taxes, lynching - re-capture of "white supremacy". It is a relic that has come to mean ignorance, hatred, and insensitivity." - frankvan "Oh yeah, it definitely is a symbol of racism." - honilov "The confederate flag isa blight on America, a reminder of centuries of the subjugation and exploitation of another race." - Dogspit "You northerners and westerners just don't get it! The confederate flag is a symbol of family heratage to those of us in southern states. The word slavery doesn't even cross our minds." - Wildflower
You asked, we answered, and you didn't like our answer. This reminds me of a friend of mine who always used to ask, "Do I look fat in this shirt?" (He weighed over 400lbs.) He didn't like it either, when I said "You'd look fat out of that shirt, too."
Wildflower, if the shirt fits wear it; if not, don't. But don't wear it and try to tell me your aren't fat.
Scotty, I neglected to add museums. You are right.
[This message was edited by Doriangreyed on 08-18-03 at 12:15 PM.]
08-18-03, 12:40 PM aminator2002 One of those sites I posted talks about how the Confederate Flag hasn't even been a continual symbol on any of the flags of the south but was put there during the 50s and 60s as a response to desegregation.
that seems to be pretty racially motivated...
08-18-03, 12:46 PM aminator2002 "There is a misperception that in a number of Southern states some version of the Confederate flag had been flown without interruption since the Civil War. For the most part, the Southern states that raised the Confederate battle flag or incorporated it into their state flag did so during the 1950s and 1960s, in a defiant stand against integration. Denmark Groover, the Georgia House floor leader who in 1956 sponsored the legislation to add the Southern Cross into the state flag, has freely admitted as much. He maintains that he and many of Georgia's legislators at the time were staunch segregationists who had urged that the Confederate symbol be added to the flag as a protest against federal integration orders. In 2001, 45 years later, Groover, now retired, again voiced his opinion on Georgia's flag, this time advocating that the divisive symbol be removed."
It probably just has facts in it, Ami, and those are apparently not pertinent to this thread. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 08-18-03, 06:19 PM Wildflower63 Sorry, but it would be just as dumb for me to say that as a German American I should be able to put up a Swastica for the pride that I feel in my ancestry.
Maybe people that are displaying the Confederate flag should switch over to one with a Swastica instead. Hitler didn't like anyone of any race except white. At least they would be making an accurate statement of race hatred
08-18-03, 06:30 PM DorianGreyed Some have adopted both, WF. They like the Nazi flag, but just can't shake that old homey feeling that they get from the confederate flag. Maybe it reminds them of the(ir) good old days.
08-18-03, 06:41 PM frankvan The swastika predates Christianity. It is a lucky cross associated with good fortune, A Hindu symbol given by Lord Ganesh and widely circulated in Indian culture. But like the confederate flag it was co-opted and came to represent race hatred, in the case of the swastika it represents anti semitism to jews just in the same way that the stars and bars has come to represent racism to blacks and others. Why cling to it except to cause hurt ?
08-18-03, 07:03 PM DorianGreyed Frank, if you look at the Cartoon Link Ami provided, I think you will see that the answer lies in the Stars.
08-18-03, 08:24 PM Wildflower63 This may be a little off topic. I think adults have much more of a problem with racism than the younger generation. I have teen kids. They tell me about their friends. It isn't until I actually meet them that I find out what race they are. My kids don't think it's important enough to mention.
They look at the individual and whether or not they like the person and seem to ignore race entirely. As a matter of fact, my kids think adults having a problem with race is something they can't comprehend to the point they crack up laughing at it. They think it is so stupid it doesn't merit even talking about. I have no idea if my kids are representative of most teens. I think they are though.
The kids make a joke of it in my son's high school. My son has a black friend. His friend is at a table already. My son is in line with plenty of staff around. He yells to his friend, "Hey, nigga!" The staff is ready to jump him when his friend yells back, "Hey, Cracka!" They were going to sit together at lunch. Notice, they leave out the R. They think this racial bias is pretty funny stuff. They are making fun of us adults that take this stuff seriously.
My impulsive, constant pursuit of fun, son could have gotten in quite a bit of trouble for this given he was yelling something potentially racial at a black friend. He forgets to think. He knows it's all fun and games. This is his friend. They quickly get over their odd introduction making fun of adults and their racial issues and talk about whatever they want. Race is a non issue at all to them.
I think that race issues will die off as us adults do. We are the ones with a problem. Both black and white many times feel they are walking on egg shells dealing with each other. The young people are completely comfortable with race, religion, and so on.
There are even openly gay high school students that do not get any flack. The kids give it the whatever. They don't understand the choice, but have heard enough about homosexuality that they aren't out to slaughter the different. They simply choose people they have something in common with. That's it.
Here we are, adults, making a big deal out of a stupid southern flag. To young people, they think we are being such idiots. In this case, the young are smarter than we are.
08-18-03, 08:34 PM jusork Oh sorry, I took you talking about how 'it's a symbol of racism' as it's a symbol of racism and nothing else. I doubt you see that as a real mistake but I think my judgement can be pretty bad if something looks like it leans a certain way.
"You have avoided responding to my call to denounce those who co-opted that flag, made a dubious claim about not knowing any racist who flies that flag,repeatedly made mistakes (that you have admitted) in both definitions, and understanding, and now you imply that others are in need of your teaching???? ("You know Wild, I think generalizations based on stereotypes are human nature. It's very hard not to generalize about something when you haven't seen it's diversity and exceptions. The most you can do is teach them." ) You backed yourself into a corner talking about things you have little knowledge about and now cannot get out, so you evade issues, and now speak of teaching others who lack your experience. All I can tell you is that to find most of the people who lack your experience, you must go back one year to last year when you were in high school. Talk to the juniors and sophomores. Those students lack your experience. Teach them. But please don't teach them history. Save that for those of us who are trained and qualified to teach history."
I was talking about the people who think all southerners are trash. Racists need to be taught too. I did talk to some racists on a website once and it was kind of debate, there was no flag to debate over though. I don't know where to find people who see the flag as a symbol of hate though, do they have signs? If there was a time when I did see somebody, I didn't speak up, I'm pretty soft-spoken. And if they do make it obvious, how am I supposed to weed through thousands of people to find them making it obvious? Where do you go to do this?
quote:Originally posted by aminator2002: "There is a misperception that in a number of Southern states some version of the Confederate flag had been flown without interruption since the Civil War. For the most part, the Southern states that raised the Confederate battle flag or incorporated it into their state flag did so during the 1950s and 1960s, in a defiant stand against integration. Denmark Groover, the Georgia House floor leader who in 1956 sponsored the legislation to add the Southern Cross into the state flag, has freely admitted as much. He maintains that he and many of Georgia's legislators at the time were staunch segregationists who had urged that the Confederate symbol be added to the flag as a protest against federal integration orders. In 2001, 45 years later, Groover, now retired, again voiced his opinion on Georgia's flag, this time advocating that the divisive symbol be removed."
Do the actions of those legislators necessarily mean the flag is a racist symbol for most people today? And why did he advocate it's removal?
08-18-03, 08:58 PM DorianGreyed WF, I hope your sons and his friends are able to stay that way. I really do.
Jusork, my statements that you quoted still stand. You have not made a case for you previously stated thoughts.
"Do the actions of those legislators necessarily mean the flag is a racist symbol for most people today? And why did he advocate it's removal?"
How do you think they got in office? Did they fall from the sky into the seat of power? Would they keep that power in any case if they did not represent the will of the majority of the voters in their respective states? As far as why Groover changed his mind, consider this. He was governor 47 years ago. I am certain he had to be at least 21 to be elected, and was probably in his 30s or 40s as governor. Often, people tend to look at their past 'indiscretions' a little differently as they near judgement from the One who casts the only vote that really counts. As far as today, no, the governor's words don't mean that, but they show that the talk of Tradition and Heritage are a cover for something else. I have seen enough usage of that flag to know that many who fly it, march under it, and hold it dear are racist. As I said before, those who see it as something else need to take it back from those who stole it. Right now, like it or not, it is theirs, and it is not a pretty sight.
[This message was edited by Doriangreyed on 08-18-03 at 09:09 PM.]
08-19-03, 01:22 PM aminator2002 The swastica was a symbol of German pride WF... it was brought about during a very hard time for the German people. As frankvan mentions, it was a old symbol meant to evoke pride in Germany's heritage. The Nazis took power after Germany had been dealt a horrible defeat in WWI... they were in need of a spiritual lift, something to give them hope for the future.
It is not central that the Nazi's were about race hatred. It was primarily that the Nazi party was intended to make the German people proud of who they were... affirm that they were good people.
It evolved into the Nazi party saying that the German race was the only pure race and gradually race hatred overwhelmed the other purposes of the party.
The Nazi flag or symbol now stands for one of the most horrible events in human history.
I still think that the southern cross is the same way. You and your parents may think that it stands for you all being good people of the South, but to way too many people it means that white people have a severe case of superiority complex and that it's caused a lot of pain for a lot of people over the years.
It is a Battle flag... nuff said.
08-19-03, 01:52 PM Wildflower63 It has always been a symbol of German racism against Jews and people of color. If you call that German pride, I don't. Hitler wanted to anialate all races except for the white. Yeah, that is good German pride if I ever heard it. But, that is what was going on in that country at the time the symbol was displayed. Pretty sick if you ask most people if that means pride.
08-19-03, 02:38 PM aminator2002 WF... obviously the history of the rise of the Nazi party is lost on you. It was not always a symbol of racism against Jews... it meant a lot more and the symbol itself has meant many other things throughout history. It has in fact come to be a strong symbol of a racial intolerance and to symbolize the Holocaust, but to say it was always a symbol of that is ignorant.
Sorry that my comparison was so misunderstood... Peace.
08-19-03, 03:18 PM Georgia85 I've lived in the South for 32 years. Here is what I have to contribute to this thread.
Since 1863 the confederate flag has become the recognized symbol of the South, not racism. It was designed to be a battle flag and thousands of men died under this flag who didn't even own a slave. It is considered to be a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing the states rights and still revered in the South.
The Civil War was not a war fought over slavery. It was about Southern independence from a centralized Northern government. We of course, lost...but still display the flag in memory and honor of our ancestors. By the way, for those of you who still think it was a war regarding slavery, it might surprise you to know that during this war there were Northerners who owned slaves as well.
Please take the time to read this link Confederate Battle Flag before judging us to harshly. But I realize that there will always be differing viewpoints on our flag.
08-19-03, 04:40 PM DorianGreyed I just finished re-reading every post in this thread. Why is is that the only people who speak of slavery being (or not being) a cause of the war are those who support the confederate flag? Not one of us who see the flag as a racist symbol have even implied that slavery was a main cause of the war. Yet those who feel the flag does not represent slavery, oppression keep bringing that up? Since it has not been brought up by the 'other side' I can only assume that it is being used as either a diversion, or somehow proof of something. As I said before, stating a fact that has no bearing on the matter at hand is often a sign of a weak argument.
Georigia's statement ("Since 1863 the confederate flag has become the recognized symbol of the South, not racism" is partially true. The true part is before the comma. The flag has become a symbol of both the south, and of racism. That flag flew over the Klan. Were they just trying to pay honor to a tradition when they burned and hanged? That flag flew next to the swastika in the office of George Lincoln Rockwell, the head of the American Nazi party when Playboy sent Alex Haley to interview him in 1966. (A fun interview, to say the least.) Both are dead now, but I think you can guess what the flag meant to each of them. Ask David Duke. Ask Byron De La Beckwith. Ask Medgar Evers. (Oh, wait, you can't. De La Beckwith killed him. OK, ask Myrlie Evers.) Ask Martin Luther King. (Oh, wait, you can't. James Earl Ray killed him, and Ray is dead now. OK, ask Coretta Scott King.) Ask the numerous hate groups in the US (all over, not just in the south). Ask 100 people at random what that flag means to them. I don't have to live in the south to know what it means, and neither do you. If you, or anyone else wants to ignore reality, that is surely up to you. Some people, like King's widow and thousands of others, can't.
[This message was edited by Doriangreyed on 08-19-03 at 04:48 PM.]
08-19-03, 05:16 PM methos Georgia - I'm not very impressed by an article declaring that slavery in the US was not racism. Slavery in other forms in other countries is a separate topic. Whites could not be slaves in the US. Blacks could. That alone is racism.
I also love the part about 'Black African barbaric pagans' being converted to 'civilized Christians.'
[This message was edited by methos5000 on 08-19-03 at 05:31 PM.]
08-19-03, 05:20 PM DorianGreyed Georgia, I just read part of that link you provided. Thanks for the laughs. I had to stop, because it hurt too much. .You may have single-handedly cured my long-standing depression. One of my favorites was this sentence: "Almost all Blacks in the United States were under slavery for less than 100 years." That's great ! It is, of course, true. Very few free men, let alone slaves, lived to be 100 ! Thanks again. Dog should read this one.
08-19-03, 05:28 PM DorianGreyed Another from Georgia's link -
So the slave owners were doing God's work? Oh, I get it. Bringing them from Africa to the southern US, where it was cooler, and some day air conditioning would be available! More people should read this for a much better understanding of just how good those southern slave-owners really were. And maybe they will get some insight on some of today's "True Believers."
08-19-03, 05:36 PM methos Well, since the old testament permits beating a slave nearly to death, as long as they are able to get up in a few days, being a 'good' Bible-obeying christian wouldn't stand in the way of much.
08-19-03, 05:36 PM aminator2002 Georgia... I am trying to read the article you posted without vomiting...
08-19-03, 06:02 PM aminator2002 "Our South, our Confederate history, and by extension, our Confederate battle flag, have suffered for many years from the relentless hatchet job of false propaganda heaped upon them by the news media, the education system, and, of course, Hollywood and television. It appears that they wish to drive a wedge between Southern Blacks and Whites, much as the carpetbaggers did after the War for Southern Independence and much as the Northern news media drove a wedge between the North and South before the War. It is important to remember that movies such as Roots and North and South are make-believe, fiction. In other words, they are not true, just like Uncle Tom's Cabin, written before the War, was not true. One must wonder if the only reason such false propaganda is produced and promoted by the movie and television industry, is to make Blacks hate Whites, especially Southern Whites."
Come on Georgia... get real. Do you really believe this b.s.? While there have been works of fiction about these times in the Old South, they are based in well documented facts.
The fact that this article makes it seem that blacks were lucky to be treated so well in the old South is particulary vile. "The truth is, that nowhere on the face of the earth, in all of history, were servants better treated or better loved than they were in the Old South by White, Black, Hispanic, and Indian slave owners."
Get serious... this is revisionist history as bad as the revisionist who say the Holocaust never happened.
08-19-03, 09:20 PM jusork Ok, does it matter that he did some bad reasearch? This thread is about how the flag is viewed right? He sees the flag as a symbol of the south and not racism. Does that mean nothing to what we're trying to get across? Just how many people see the flag as a symbol of white superiority? Are people just defining what a symbol represents by the extremists who hold it today and all the people who held onto the norm of segregation yesterday? If so, then Georgia's link brought up a point: how is the confederate flag being flown by white supremisists any different than the Ameican flag being flown by the same people? And does the addition of a symbol during integration that was seen as a representation of slavery by racists 50 years ago mean it's still seen as a symbol of slavery TODAY? That is the question. Here how about these links: http://www.ashevilletribune.com/blackrebel.htm http://www.rockbpubl.com/wwwboard/messages/1140.htm
I think I'll go back to what I do best...answering medical questions and entertainment trivia.
I am not a debator. I am not going to get into an argument. Wildflower asked a question. I answered and gave MY opinion. My response was well written (I thought), thought provoking, and if you will notice the closing sentence...I referred to differing view points. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. One should not feel the need to chastise another who has a different opinion. My posts never say a detrimental word about another post. . .
[This message was edited by Georgia85 on 08-19-03 at 09:46 PM.] ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 08-19-03, 09:41 PM methos Jusork-
"Bad research?" He declares that slavery in America was not racist and was, in fact, beneficial to the slaves, and this is "bad research?"
Could you clarify what you meant by misconceptions and hypocracy?
Georgia -
If you feel that I jumped on you, I do apologize. However, by the time you and I jumped into this thread it was (as most threads in this forum tend to become) a debate (which is exaclty why I tend to avoid this section) and not just people stating their opinions. Your post even referred (somewhat indirectly) to other people's opinions. Wildflower made it clear that this question was not just asking for opinions when she replied to the opinions that differed from hers by saying the posters "just don't get it!"
[This message was edited by methos5000 on 08-19-03 at 09:49 PM.]
08-19-03, 10:20 PM DorianGreyed OK, Jusork, Prior to this, I have been nice; you are a kid, and haven't a lot of experience. But that bad research comment went too far. ("OK, does it matter that he did some bad reasearch?" - Jusork) Georgia, you need to look, too, because you linked yourself to that site with your own words. ("Please take the time to read this link Confederate Battle Flag before judging us to harshly. " - Georgia, BOLD-mine) Jusork, if you call that bad research, you may have trouble getting out of college. That was crap, and any decent person reading it could tell. False history, factual errors, poor development, illogical conclusion from facts stated, and (as I told you before), facts added that have NO bearing on the subject matter. Son, I don't care what you believe, but don't try to pass it off as something else. You can sell Shinola wherever you want, but it should be properly labelled. And that stuff needs an upgrade to be called Shinola. If you want to believe that the KKK doesn't hate, go right ahead. They are definitely looking for recruits exactly like you on college campuses. But a word of advice; have pictures taken frequently, so that the one on the nightly news isn't your high school one.
Georgia, You certainly did state your opinion, and linked yourself to a racist web site that at one point essentially said that slavery was good for some of the blacks. Thanks for letting us know where you stand.
[This message was edited by Karrow on 08-20-03 at 08:03 AM.]
08-20-03, 09:07 AM Karrow This topic has certainly engendered a great deal of debate between members with opposing views. That is fine, and makes for interesting reading. The site rules do say: "We hope that ideas will be expressed, exchanged, debated and discussed in depth; diversity of opinion is a good thing and we encourage it."
Unfortunately the next part of the rules which state "However, disagreements must remain courteous and within the boundaries of the site rules. Personal attacks, or 'Flame Wars', have no place here and are not acceptable as a means of expression" have not been observed on occasions in this thread. I have lightly edited posts where they have contravened this, but will just delete the reply in full if this happens again.
I will not be as lenient in future editing of this thread, so please think about what you have written before you post. Thank you.
08-20-03, 09:39 AM methos Again, I don't mean to jump on anyone, but this became a debate long ago and people must be allowed to (politely Smile) refute any evidence presented.
We have 3 links in support of the Confederate flag.
One claims that American slavery wasn't racism and was actually good for the slaves, in part because it saved them from their non-Christian religion.
Another, although it is by a black man, makes racist and antisemetic comments (saying a black man is confused because he has a white girlfriend, and dismissing people because they are white and/or Jewish).
The last makes claims about history supposedly based on the Constitution that can be easily refuted by simply reading the document for yourself (lo and behold, slaves are mentioned!). It also goes contrary to what everyone, on both sides of the debate, has said. It presents slavery as the sole reason for the Civil War.
08-20-03, 09:56 AM aminator2002 I do not intend to attack people's opinions, but when told to go read something.. I read it.
That article was offensive. It said things in a way that I have only heard from people who want to make the truth obscure and change the way people view history. Historians do not have a political motivation and follow rules to document the facts they present... it is not as easy as some may wish to undo their work. The "Lies" that the article posted arguments against are well documented truths and he would not stand a chance in any scholarly debate.
The South has a lot to be proud of and I have no problem with Southerners. I just think that asserting that slavery wasn't as bad as people have made it, is dangerous and offensive. I do not mean to personally attack those of you that are carrying the message, but I do wish you would consider carefully the source, the false message and the hurt that can be caused due to recreations of the truth like that of the link Georgia posted.
I don't think any of you read the link that I posted which states some real cases where the Battle Flag of the South was directly used to signify defiance of National laws regarding desegregation. This flag was not flown continually since the Civil War (not typically called the "Southern War of Independence"). It came out during the Civil Rights movement during the 50's and 60's. It was in many cases a direct response to calls to give equal rights to Blacks in this country.
Again, I do not mean to make personal attacks, and I do think that after careful consideration of the facts and some thought that all opinions are valid, but in this case I fear that not enough thought has been put to the topic and too much bias of attachment to the issue is at work. And again, I think that just like the post that asserted all the false things about the 1500's, it scares me that people would believe what they read from an unsubstantiated source on the internet. Please think about it.
08-20-03, 10:15 AM aminator2002 "Do the actions of those legislators necessarily mean the flag is a racist symbol for most people today? And why did he advocate it's removal?" - jusork
The actions of those legislators was a very powerful message. Yes, I believe it overpowers all other displays, just like the people who bring their flags with them up north and hang them in their windows and then go out on the street and yell at the "Ni**ers" and "Spics" send out a strong message of the racial tolerance of the people who fly that Battle Flag.
He advocated his removal after years of growing a conscience. People mature and gain wisdom with experience.
I am shocked that you don't see through the lies of the KKK. They are a racist group jusork... they prove it all the time. Please do not allow people to paint you a victim to get you into their club... scary.
08-20-03, 11:26 AM Wildflower63 Those quotes from the Bible in Georgia's article, I found interesting. You mean to tell me that God condoned slavery? The buying and selling of any human is unethical and immoral in my mind. Those who sell people and those who buy them should be struck by lightening! Maybe God needs to get some ethics.
I do have to point out that only a very few people owned slaves. Most people came to this country poor. Many white people came here as indentured servants, essentially slaves for a number of years to pay their way into the US. I have to question why so many white people would be so pro slavery since there were quite a few white slaves themselves.
Only a handful of people have true wealth to buy a slave. People came to this country for freedom of religion and opportunity not available to them in their country. The vast majority of immigrants were not people of wealth that could dream of buying a slave.
Slavery was only an issue to wealthy people that already made the investment in the purchase of people. The only real difference in the African slave trade and poor white indentured servants was a debt owed and then they were free and usually given a bit of land at the end of many years of work. I don't see how the common white southern person could be pro slavery, only the wealthy that benefited from this could. Slavery probably took work from poor immigrants.
There are so many sources of information about the slave days of the south that I think we need a time machine to honestly figure this out. There are some things that don't make any sense.
08-20-03, 11:46 AM methos We're veering off topic, but... Wildflower - yes, God condones slavery in the Bible. Here's some more from the Bible on slavery:
Gen 20 and 21 mention that Abraham had slaves, and do not present this as a bad thing. 1 Kings 9:20-22 and 2 Chronicles 8:8 say that Solomon had many slaves. Ex 12:43 has the Lord speaking, and giving rules for when it is permissible for a slave to participate in Passover - no mention of having slaves to begin with being wrong. Lev 25:44 specifically says slaves are ok, as long as they are not fellow Hebrews.
Many other passages mention slaves as a fact of life, and do not do anything to discourage their ownership (except that Hebrew slaves can only be owned for a limited time and later that they should not be slaves to other Hebrews at all).
This is perhaps the most telling, though: Ex 21:20-21 says that a man must be punished if a he beats a slave to death, but "if the slave gets up after a day or two," the man should not be punished at all because "the slave is his property." The Bible allows lifetime slavery and cruel treatment of slaves, as long as they are not Hebrew and live through the beatings
There is a difference between indentured servitude and slavery. Indentured servitude was repayment for a debt (most commonly it was repayment for transportation to America), and was temporary. Indentured servants and former indentured servants welcomed the practice of slavery partly because it meant that they were no longer the lowest class. As poor as they were, the fact that they were not a black slave made them 'better' than someone.
08-20-03, 01:22 PM aminator2002 Wildflower... again, pardon me if you take this as a personal attack, it is not intended to be.
Of course very few of the whole owned slaves... but most blacks in the South before the war were slaves. We are not arguing that there aren't a lot of non-racist white people in the South... that is true. There are also a lot of racists in the South and the North; I'm sure you don't want to argue that.
WF - "Those quotes from the Bible in Georgia's article, I found interesting. You mean to tell me that God condoned slavery? The buying and selling of any human is unethical and immoral in my mind. Those who sell people and those who buy them should be struck by lightening! Maybe God needs to get some ethics."
Yes, ethics have evolved since biblical times. Slavery was widespread almost universally. And it wasn't held to be a sin until some humanists came along and said that slavery was wrong. There is still slavery in the world, but that doesn't make it right. That does not mean that it was okay in America, or in the South. It has left scars on this country that are obviously very deep. We do not celebrate the fact that we were once the oppressors of a race of people who were forcibly brought to this country.
"I do have to point out that only a very few people owned slaves. Most people came to this country poor. Many white people came here as indentured servants, essentially slaves for a number of years to pay their way into the US. I have to question why so many white people would be so pro slavery since there were quite a few white slaves themselves. "
PLEASE read methos's explanation of the difference between indentured servant and slave. You need to understand this... there is a big difference.
"There are so many sources of information about the slave days of the south that I think we need a time machine to honestly figure this out. There are some things that don't make any sense."
Historians make it their full time occupation to look into these matters. When looking for a source, look for someone who will voluntarily post their credentials at the beginning or end of an article. Look for authors associated with reputable journals and publications... do not make the mistake of falling for some ignorant racist's reconstruction of the truth. Historians spend a lot of time and effort to cross check each other... there are tons of excellent books. No need for a time machine.
But if you do find a time machine, how 'bout you go back as a black person and see the old south through their eyes.
08-20-03, 04:25 PM aminator2002 jusork... they will sound like whatever people want to hear so that they get members and then the hate will start to come out.
Here are some sites about the KKK, the history, and what some reliable sources have to say about the confederate flag issue.
08-20-03, 05:17 PM methos My extreme apologies. I went for the quote button on Jusork's latest post and accidentally hit the edit button instead. By the time I realized what I had done, I had erased most of his original words in what I thought was going to be my reply. Please post again, jusork Frown
More or less what he said was that he took the statements on the KKK's page as truth and therefore those of us who had been calling them racists had a misconception and were therefore hypocrites (please correct me if I mangled that... again, I'm sorry jusork Frown ).
My reply to that is that I'm dissappointed that Jusork took them at their word, despite the fact that their words and actions elsewhere have shown them to be hateful. 08-20-03, 05:22 PM jusork Oh well it's ok Methos, yeah I think you got it. Hypocrits because you didn't know about it while saying people need to become better educated in what they don't understand. And then something about I wasn't being painted a victim and I didn't see how finding information that said they didn't hate would mean I was interested in joining.
Those KKK articles seem to say the same as my links, it seems there were members who didn't hate anybody but did want to be above other groups and then some renegade members who commited violence. But I guess if they both flew the flag, it would be seen as related to both.
Anyway, here's my take on this: people see the flag as offensive because, although there are those who don't see it as a hate symbol, it is still flown today by an undetermined amount of people who do see it as a hate symbol.
[This message was edited by jusork on 08-20-03 at 05:35 PM.]
08-20-03, 05:32 PM methos "members who didn't hate anybody but did want to be above other groups" Sounds awfully racist to me, and one of the links specifically states that the Klan was "marked by a hatred of African Americans" ... not a small number of Renegades, but the Klan itself. Those links tell a very different story than your links. Of course the KKK's own web site is not going to admit to violence. Violence is illegal.
08-20-03, 05:53 PM methos Lets's take a look at David Duke, who the site Jusork linked to says was their national director at one time, not exactly a renegade.
Increasingly independent black economic, cultural and political power gave Blacks more freedom to do what came natural to them. Divorced from White influence and culture, they reverted quickly to their genotype -- increasingly typical of black societies around the world. Males exhibited exaggerated sexual aggression and promiscuity that led to the dissolution of the Black nuclear family in America. Females reverted to the age-old African model of maternal provisioning of children.
[A] black...gets a job with a white-owned company. He is the only black at the firm. He works hard, but he's fighting a losing battle against his genes.
White people don't need a law against rape, but if you fill this room up with your normal black bucks, you would, because n***ers are basically primitive animals.
It's really the Jew Marxists who see the n***er as their instrument, as their bullets, by which to destroy our society.
Our clear goal must be the advancement of the white race and separation of the white and black races. This goal must include freeing of the American media and government from subservient Jewish interests.
Jewish power is ubiquitous. Every politician is so aware of it that he knows he cannot dare mention it! Jewish organizations, Jewish media and Jewish political agents ruthlessly seek their perceived interests without remorse and without introspection. Just as single-mindedly as they once orchestrated the Russian Revolution, they now coordinate their power over the goyim. No Jewish leader has to direct his minions to seek political control of Gentile nations; they do it as naturally as the Blue Jay appropriates another bird's nest. No one has to tell Jews to destroy Gentile pride, heritage, honor, loyalty, tradition, while at the same time building up their own. It is in their programming.
The Jews are trying to destroy all other cultures...as a survival mechanism...the only Nazi country in the world is Israel
They're trying to exterminate our race. I think, probably in a moral sense, the Jewish people have been a blight.... And they probably deserve to go into the ashbin of history.
These Jews who run things, who are producing this mental illness teenage suicide...all these Jewish sicknesses...that's nothing new.
Did you ever notice how many survivors they have? Did you ever notice that? Everybody – every time you turn around, 15,000 survivors meet here, 400 survivors convention there. I mean, did you ever notice? Nazis sure were inefficient, weren't they? Boy, boy, boy! ...You almost have no survivors that ever say they saw a gas chamber or saw the workings of a gas chamber...they'll say these preposterous stories that anybody can check out to be a lie, an absolute lie
As America is transformed from a 90 percent European American nation, as it was in the 1960s, to one where we will soon be a minority, should we not ask some pertinent questions. Is this racial diversity enriching, or will it be damaging to our social fabric?
The white race could choose any path it wants to take and there is no Third World people that could even stand for a moment in our way. The least we could and can do is protect our borders, stop the nonwhite crime plaguing our cities, stop financing welfare illegitimacy, and separate the races once and for all the least we could and can do is survive. The most we could do is use the genetic knowledge we have now to speed our evolution toward a smarter, stronger, healthier people that can touch the heavens
Of course you know the miracle of AIDS, we all do. It's the only disease that turns fruits into vegetables.
The vast majority of these quotes are from books and articles he has written. Both formats give him plenty of time to consider his words carefully, and this is what he chose. One is from his radio show. A couple are from interviews.
Duke was once the head of the KKK, is praised on the site you linked, and is certainly not a renegade member. I challenge you to read through these quotes and tell me that he doesn't hate anyone and that we have misconceptions about what the KKK does and does not believe. Besides classing immigrants, blacks, and Jews as genetically inferior to whites, he calls AIDS a miracle because it kills gays. Just because the KKK doesn't admit to illegal activities on their own website, does not mean that they did not commit them. Criminals rarely plead guilty.
[This message was edited by methos5000 on 08-20-03 at 06:03 PM.]
08-20-03, 08:04 PM Kwll I just want to put in my two bits (inflation you know!)
There have been white slaves in the US, they were called indentured servants which amounted to nearly the same thing in many cases.
African slaves were sold into captivity by other Africans, no one in the world of any ethnic group or race is clean on this issue of man's inhumanity to man.
yes the North outlawed slavery first, but it was not as clean cut as that, there were many who opposed it and were still prejudicial..watch the movie "Glory" sometime for a light sprinking of what happened.
Slavery in the South would have died out as a matter of course in time had the war not brought it to a swifter end.
The war was originally fought over states rights and even Lincoln debated whther or not to even issue the Emancipation Proclamation while the war was raging.
-all of the above are fact and not conjecture. Now my opinion.
Like Scotty I have lived in or visited many parts of this country and grew up in an area that made me relatively colorblind and not understanding of the race issue until nearly out of my teens (South Florida).
What I have learned is that there are genuine Southerners who feel that the flag is heritage but there are also those who twist and pervert this thought. Regardless of that, I do feel that the flag is very hurtful and not an important enough symbol of heritage to keep a rift amongst fellow Americans. Hurt outweighs heritage in my opinion. It should be displayed at museums or on Civil War battlefields so that the fallen of both sides may be honored.
The Klan is not honest about anything, they are racist and haters of humanity as are the Nazi's. If anyone says different then they are truly deceived. How do I know? My father in law was in the Klan for 30 years before he left it, I didn't know him while he was in but he admitted to some of the horrible things done in that name. A sad and disgraceful mistake in his life.
The North is no cleaner than the South in the war against Brothers, more American blood was spilled in that war than all others fought by us combined.
No nation or race is cleaner than any other in this either, from the Spanish, French, Dutch, English and even Africans who populated the Caribbean with slaves of not only African heritage but all heritages to where it was continued in the colonies of the day.
That's all I've got to say on it. I have worked and fought side by side with some of the bravest and most patriotic "Americans" of all creeds and colors and their blood is all the same color. Let this miserable time in history die and shun those who would resurrect it.
08-20-03, 08:06 PM jusork Ok, saw these and made me think if they all hated or not
"criminals and gangs of hoodlums quickly learned to take advantage of the Klan's existence; if they wanted to burn someone's barn or raid the slums beyond the railroad tracks, they could do it with impunity now: would not the Klan be held responsible?"
"Though Imperial Wizard Evans inveighed against lawlessness, the members of the local Klans were not always content with voting against allowing children to attend parochial schools, or voting against Catholic candidates for office, or burning fiery crosses on the hilltop back of the town to show the niggers that the whites meant business."
And most of it seemed to focus on just the seperation and superiority so I didn't think that wanting to be supreme and racist necessarily meant they hated them. But then i said it wouldn't matter what they thought, someone who was racist held it at one time.
08-20-03, 08:17 PM DorianGreyed You definition of indentured servants is not factual, Kwll, despite your claim that "all of the above are fact and not conjecture." The Indentured Servant made a deal, entered into an agreement, and often had a signed contract, stipulating that the servant has sold his services for a stipulated time period. In other words, he agreed to do the work in exchange for something of value, usually, a trip to AMerica. Slaves do not enter a slavery agreement freely. I am unaware that Indentured Servants had to be captured in Ireland, chained together in passage, nor were they legally killed. I have yet to see the diagrams showing how the indentured servants were stowed on the ships. I have seen them for the slaves. Thus, your statement "There have been white slaves in the US, they were called indentured servants which amounted to nearly the same thing in many cases" is very misleading.
Further, the facts that "African slaves were sold into captivity by other Africans has no bearing on the issue at hand, namely, the meaning of the confederate flag.
08-20-03, 08:30 PM aminator2002 jusork...
Have you ever heard of someone who talks out of both sides of their mouth?
This is what the Klan was doing when they say publicly that they are a Brotherhood of White Christians who do not support violence. You can not have members of your group burning crosses and lynching people with hoods covering their faces and say it's just a "fraternal organization". If it is just a fraternity about love and good Christian values, why do they wear hoods?
Answer why they wear hoods to cover their identity if any of what they say is true.
Does that make sense?
Now, ask yourself how you would feel if you were a black person and had a group of white men in sheets and hoods show up in front of your house to burn a cross on the front yard... is that something that Good Christians would do to a fellow human being?
and would you associate with people who would do something like that? Would you believe that that group is about pride and love?
08-20-03, 08:55 PM Kwll DG, of course not all indentured servants were treated the same as slaves yet many were. As far as entering an agreement etc, some of those were of rather forced and dubious circumstances as well. Suffice to say that if your point is simply to pick apart an argument on a minor point then knock yourself out, as it is simply a minor point and one I don't think I need to dredge up historical vignettes for to defend, although I know I can given time. The basis for my argument kept in a whole context stands, don't belabor it with confined points. Besides, I made an unemotional argument, it seems emotion will get the best of you in this case.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
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