Michael Ignatieff, Harvard professor who lived in the US for decades, returned to Canada, was elected to the Commons, and now is seeking to be leader of the Liberal Party. He has suggested that Quebec be recognized as a "nation." Anyone see the possiblities or problems with this?

Hi Juan:

Just keep watching what is happening to California,Arizona,New Mexico and Texas as they become the new nation of Mexico North.

Just as Canada is being split into 2 nations, divided by language,French and English..watch as America will be split apart in to 2 nations,divided by language,Spanish and English.

Just sit back and watch,it will happen sooner than you think.

hippolips

The splitting of Canada into a French-speaking nation and an English-speaking nation has been discussed for at least a few decades now. I remember reading about it in the 1960s. It hasn't happened yet.

'...Ignatieff himself has ruled out any change in the division of powers and some of his supporters clearly wouldn't be comfortable with anything more than a strictly symbolic gesture...' www.ctv.ca

This seems to be a way to get everybody annoyed; including both those who don't want to re-visit the debates of the 80s or 90s at all, and those who see real - not symbolic - nationhood for Quebec as desirable.

quote:

Originally posted by juanruiz:
Michael Ignatieff, Harvard professor who lived in the US for decades, returned to Canada, was elected to the Commons, and now is seeking to be leader of the Liberal Party. He has suggested that Quebec be recognized as a "nation." Anyone see the possiblities or problems with this?

Most of us here in Canada know Ignatieff as an intellectual and historian. He has presented documentaries on television, and has written both fiction and non-fiction books.

The question of Quebec separating from the rest of Canada seems to come to the fore every few years here.
Yes Quebec as a separate country within Canada is always a possibility, but one that is just beginning to be talked about again in the Canadian media after a break of a few years.

I don't think it is a burning issue with ordinary Canadians yet, at least not outside Quebec.
I would recommend the CBC site to read more on Ignatieff and the possibility of recognising Quebec as a nation.

That Ignatieff could climb so far so fast is indicative of how bankrupt in political capital the Liberals were at the end of Chrétien's and through Paul Martin's mandates. Still remains to be seen what the definition of "nation" is in this context.

'"Do Quebecers form a nation within a united Canada? The answer is yes. Do the Quebecois form an independent nation? The answer is no, and will always be no," Harper said in an address to the House of Commons following question period.' news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca

yes i heard this on the news here tonight in Ontario. I thought "wow where is this coming from all of a sudden from Stephen Harper" but the news article you linked to makes it clearer.

So I suppose the old debate starts up again?

I'm in sunny Scotland for a week, visiting my parents. The Scottish independence debate seems to be starting up again.

Scotland and Wales now have their own 'state' or 'provincial' parliaments, which has created an anomaly. England, by far the largest nation, has no parliament of its own - only the national parliament, in which Scottish and Welsh national MPs still sit and vote.

The Scottish parliament, meanwhile has been busy creating more anomalies. For example, students in Scotland can go to university at less expense than those in England (creating an influx of Englsih students to Scotland, apparently). Pensioners get a better deal, too. The majority of people in England want Scottish independence, apparently feeling that if Scotland is going to start setting up a Scandinavian style welfare system, they don't want to subsidise it. (They don't seem to want to emulate it either, strangely. Norway and Sweden aren't exactly the worst places in the world to live.)

Scotland has always been to the left of England politically - the independence movement of the 70s was mostly about resisting Thatcherism (= Reaganism) which very few in Scotland voted for.

Anyway, the point is that calls for independence seem to arise when there's some percieved unfairness - either economically or in political representation. And also 'independence' these days only works inside a larger, maybe international, 'federal' system - Scottish independence is really only a credible idea because of the EU.

Maybe that's why Quebec's independence doesn't seem such a hot political issue (outside Quebec) - there's no great inequity, and it already is fairly independent inside the Canadian provincial system. Possibly Ignatieff, and now Harper, believe that a symbolic nationhood will be enough to satisfy the Quebecois.

(In the UK, the Labour government is having trouble coming up with convincing counter-arguments to the SNP. They're resorting to scary tales about not being able to visit your granny in Blackpool, and so forth.)

NNN by the SNP I guess you mean The Scottish Nationalist Party..can you explain to me exactly what they want?
Do they want an independant Scotland? Is that likely?
Why is the Labour party saying it would be difficult to travel to Blackpool? You mean Scots wouldn't be able to visit?
My parents are both Scottish, and I spent all my summers there as a child..I remember sitting for hours at the relatives with my Dad and others and they would talk politics. I think a few of them were SNP members.

Now here living in Canada, I dont see an inequality either between what Quebec has compared to the rest of Canada.

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Now here living in Canada, I dont see an inequality either between what Quebec has compared to the rest of Canada.

Quite the contrary. Go out to western Canada, from the prairies to BC, and ask them what they think about what Ottawa sends to Quebec in terms of support. A consistent message from them is that the Feds are bribing Quebec to stay. Course, that's just one opinion.

Well yes I agree Juan and that is where Quebec recieves much of the criticism from..western Canada. They are so far geographically removed fron Ottawa that they feel forgotten. Or at least that's the comments I read in the papers here.
I guess my comment should have read..I dont see Quebec as the underdogs in this country.

Dance girl, I don't know if you were living in Canada during the referendum in Quebec; the vote to get out of Canada. The sentence was so ambiguous as to be worthless. Further, supporters fully expected to realize independence while keeping their Canadian identity: passports, currency, while leaving unclear what an independent Quebec would mean in separating Ontario from the eastern provinces: tariffs in crossing the borders? the standing of First Nations in Quebec who wanted to remain part of Canada? And then, when the referendum went down to defeat, by the slightest of pluralities, the reacton of the PQ's leader, was most revealing. I think this is why Ignatieff's statement on Quebec as "nation" ripped the scab off a chronic wound. And pushed others to enter the fray. This may all die down until there is another push for independence, or it may blow up. Only time will tell.

Yes Juan,
I was living here then and I remember the time well. 1995 was the year that there was the chance that Quebec would separate and it was all over the news here.
Jacques Parizeau was Premier of Quebec at the time and said that the defeat was due to money and the ethnic vote.
As I remember these remarks led to his resignation.
I can see this debate gathering momentum again here.
You raised this topic a couple of weeks ago and there was little in the news here then, but its starting to get a lot of coverage again.

As I wasn't born here, I don't feel as passionate about the whole issue. Maybe I should but it hardly affects my day to day life.
As for my friends in Ontario, many of whom have grown up with the debate, and are well educated, their general opinion is that they have no time for the whining attitude of Quebec. There is a general feeling that we ( as in the rest of Canada) give them too much of their own way.

But if you want to hear about what people from all over Canada think about the latest issue then see:
http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/archives.html

You can listen to a national phone in that we have each Sunday on the CBC.

quote:

Originally posted by dance girl:

Why is the Labour party saying it would be difficult to travel to Blackpool? You mean Scots wouldn't be able to visit?

This claim is, presumably, based on the fact that the UK is a member of the European Union. If Scotland became an independent sovereign nation she would not then be a member. Travel between EU member states is not restricted.Travel between most member states does not require a passport, though airlines do require some form of i.d. such as a driving licence or identity card. So the newly independent Scots would need a Scottish passport to enter England and every other state of the EU. (The UK is fond of passports. The UK requires British citizens to show a passport even though they are entering from France )

The Labour Party could say more. If Scotland was independent of England and the EU then there would be no automatic right to work in England or the rest of the EU: Scots would be in the same position as Americans or Japanese (or Canadians ). Furthermore she would not have the same trading status with member states of the EU and none of the other benefits (or liabilities, of course ).

quote:

You can listen to a national phone in that we have each Sunday on the CBC.

I've been listening to Cross Country Checkup for a long time. Rex is one of my favorite curmudgeons.

Some have said that Quebec independence is now only a chimera, especially if dependent on the BQ. It's been suggested that they've been co-opted by Ottawa; they enjoy the perqs a recognized federal party has: offices, supplies, funds, and the like. Gilles Duceppe mouths the slogans, but doesn't have the fire in the belly anymore.

Juan,
oh well I know that you must have been listening to cross-country checkup because that is the most accurate word one could use to describe the host of that show a "curmudgeon"!

I am such a fan of the CBC and sometime I'll have to chat to you about other favourite shows.

...such as Tapestry and randy Bachmans vinyl tap

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...such as Tapestry and randy Bachmans vinyl tap

Tapestry is a superb show. Don't get to hear Vinyl Tap much. Also Finkleman's 45s and Eric Friesen on Radio 2, whom I have listened to on line since he was in Minnesota.