this is something that i have just started thinking about and have already gotten so shot down in this forum about it, that i thought i should "expand my mind" about it more. the question is where do our rights come from? i am not looking for answers like "they come from the people who have died to protect then" (JennX) or they are inherit in being human (John Galt). I am interested in where they come from, their idea and why people think they are just inborn. disclaimer: i have not had the opporunity to research this topic and don´t want to be scolded for my ignorance or have somebody tell me that they feel sorry for me. I don´t quite see the basis for rights just being there just based on being a human, and why should people in prison have any rights? i see rights as being granted by other people who allow for these rights to be respected. please tell me your ideas on the subject. +++++++++++ 07-15-02, 08:17 PM JohnGalt I don't think you were "shot down", rather I think people just have passionate views on this subject. Just because two (or more) people disagree on a topic does not mean one side shot down the other. It simply means different people have different views. This is an open forum for all views to be expressed.
Second, you are not ignorant by the mere fact that you are curious on this issue and asking important questions about rights and where they come from. Anyone who asks questions is not ignorant.
I won't get into my thoughts on this subject (as I've already done that). But since you are questioning this important issue, I will provide a few more questions for you to throw into the mix:
1. If rights are granted by other people, where did those people get the right to grant rights to others?
2. If rights come from large groups (i.e. government or society), to be granted or imposed on individuals, does might make right?
3. When a human being is born does he or she have a right to live his or her life? If so, who gave them that right to live?
4. If a person has a right to life, do they also have a right to defend that life from someone who is trying to take it?
5. Is there a difference between government and society?
6. Who created the government. And why?
7. Can groups have rights that individuals cannot have? If so, why?
8. Who owns your life?
Keep asking all sorts of questions! smile
[This message was edited by JohnGalt on 07-15-02 at 08:28 PM.]
[This message was edited by JohnGalt on 07-15-02 at 08:30 PM.]
07-15-02, 09:28 PM aminator2002 When the first group of people got together there were agreements, either by force or by consensus, about what constitutes acceptable behavior. It is typical animal behavior to establish ground rules for how things are going to work. For example, feeding habits where the leader of a group of animals is given first crack at the fresh kill. This is not instinct or an inherent behavior, but something that is established as the right way for the animals to behave. Why? Because the leader is the strongest and will beat the crap out of any animal that doesn't comply...
Human history has many stories of inhumanity and cruel behavior to fellow human beings. In general, it was the lower classes that got the bad treatment, but when things got too bad there have been revolutions and the wealthy or priveledged have paid dearly for their behavior. This established a tension in society that allowed "human rights" to be established.
So, rights for individuals have evolved over time to allow human life to have dignity and meaning. Slavery used to be acceptable in every part of the world, not just slavery of Africans, but slavery in general. Through revolution, consensus, violence and a whole lot of politics and speeches, rascism is largely held to be wrong today because most people believe that every human has a right to freedom. Why do we think that this is a right? Because we've heard, read and seen the horrific affect that slavery has on the people. (Not to mention some revolutions.) The majority of people see it as wrong. That means they think it is inherently a bad thing.
There are a lot of gray areas in life, and issues that people have varied opinions on, but when it comes to "rights", people have agreed and declared that it isn't a gray issue and that all people have certain rights like: freedom, life, freedom of speech, right to bear arms, right to not incriminate yourself, etc...
These are the things that we all agree on. Human rights have evolved over time. I'm sure that it hasn't been a straight line of evolution, but here we are. You will notice that people are still arguing about what they think are "basic human rights". That's good, that's the process that got us to a point where slavery is nearly gone and people like John Walker Lindh are granted fair treatment in the courts.
One final point, the founding fathers were mistreated by their governors, the British, and felt that they deserved certain rights. The Bill of Rights was written to establish these rights for the future citizens of the USA, but what about black slaves? They didn't agree on that so it wasn't until Abraham Lincoln that the same rights were extended to black Americans. There was a war, a lot of people didn't get it but now there is a consensus and our government is partially responsible for making sure that is upheld. The rest of the responsibility for maintaining these rights falls on all of us.
Your question is a good one. I hope I haven't added to the confusion.
07-16-02, 03:13 AM MrSensitive Man is born. Being born a physical being comes with certain rights. 1. The right to defend 2. The right to consume 3. The right to one's body. 4. The right to communicate. 5. The right to possession
These can apply to animals as well as humans, on an individual basis. In a society or alone in the desert, these instincts are part of our construct. To try oppressing them is to oppress nature. Nature cannot be oppressed.
Because we are sentient beings, with thought, opposable thumbs and analytical processes, our rights extend beyond instinct: 1. The right to perceive and act on such perceptions. 2. The right to improve/evolve/learn 3. The right to create 4. The right to migrate
These are also part of the human construct. In a societal environment, these rights stand firm, provided they do not conflict with the first set of rights
Because we live in a societal environment, we need to acknowledge certain rights which would otherwise be moot: 1. The right to compensation a. commerce b. justice 2. The right to privacy.
These are in place merely because we share the planet. On an isolated rock in the middle of space, these would mean nothing. But in society, they stand firm, provided they are not in conflict with the first two sets of rights.
These are the basic rights possessed by human beings, from the foundational rights (instinct) to the societal rights (interaction). All other rights are based upon these rights I choose to refer to as "natural human rights". They are part of our construct and we can relinquish them no better than we can oppress them.
Mr(feets don't fail me mouth)Sensitive
PS.. EXCELLENT question!
07-16-02, 12:23 PM hippolips Speaking of rights...what about "entitlements"???What about those who believe that just because they"need" or "want" something...that they are automatically "entitled" to it??? wink roll eyes eek big grin confused razz wink
07-16-02, 08:49 PM gatman People have rights because they demand them. Where they cower and do not demand they do not have. Perhaps others more studied in history will disagree but it seems the modern percepts of rights stem from the Magna Carta of 1215. Since then the idea of rights belonging to the individual regardless of class has taken hold. The main problem seems to be one of balaningthe rights of one to the rights of another or the many. Thank God for lawyers! (yes that is satyrical)
07-16-02, 11:51 PM coldfuse when you come into this life is that you will leave it.
07-17-02, 08:44 AM JohnGalt (I don't know who to credit for the following--it came in an e-mail--but I think it helps to understand what is a right and what is not.)
Bill of NO Rights!
"We, the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the blessings of debt free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great-grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guiltridden, delusional, and other, bed-wetters.
We hold these truths to be self-evident: that a whole lot of people are confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of No Rights".
ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.
ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone - not just you! You may leave the room, turn channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be.
ARTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.
ARTICLE IV: You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.
ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care.
ARTICLE VI: You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentio don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.
ARTICLE VII: You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life of leisure.
ARTICLE VIII: You don't have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight if you'd like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.
ARTICLE IX: You don't have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have a job, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.
ARTICLE X: You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to PURSUE happiness - which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights."
If you agree, share this with a friend. No, you don't have to, and nothing tragic will befall you if you don't.
I just think it is about time common sense is allowed to flourish -call it the age of reason revisited.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
