2 Quesiotns I need to know. Though I apologize if I have asked this in the past but has anyone made a laser using the light from the ultraviolet spectrum specifically gamma? My other question is is it possible to seperate electrons and protons from plasma and organize them into their own groups? ************************************************** 02-05-04, 11:05 PM methos There are many examples of lasers in the ultraviolet spectrum, but gamma is not part of the ultra-violet region. No one has yet produced a gamma ray laser, and I doubt any one will for quite a while. Lasers with short wavelengths are more difficult to produce, which is why masers (lasers that operate in the microwave region) were actually invented first.
It is possible to separate ions and electrons in a plasma by applying an electric field or an electric field and a magnetic field. The directions and speeds of the particles will be determined by the magnetic and electric fields, as well as the masses and charges of the particles. The determination of a particle's mass to charge ratio is called mass spectrometry. In my lab, we perform mass spectrometry using inductively coupled plasmas (ICPs), glow discharge plasmas, microwave induced plasmas, and other types of plasmas. If your like more details about that, just ask and I'll be happy to answer.
06-18-04, 08:47 PM Kainchild Methos said: It is possible to separate ions and electrons in a plasma by applying an electric field or an electric field and a magnetic field. The directions and speeds of the particles will be determined by the magnetic and electric fields, as well as the masses and charges of the particles. The determination of a particle's mass to charge ratio is called mass spectrometry. In my lab, we perform mass spectrometry using inductively coupled plasmas (ICPs), glow discharge plasmas, microwave induced plasmas, and other types of plasmas. If your like more details about that, just ask and I'll be happy to answer.
Now I was wondering in this experiment how chaotic would it be to apply ionizing ultraviolet light to this experiment to see electrons would react and seperate from the plasma. Would it be possible to get a controlled enviroment over the electrons using ultraviolet light?
06-19-04, 08:23 AM methos In theory, you could manipulated the electrons with a laser, but in practice, I don't think you'd have much luck.
Electrons in a plasma necessarily already have a large velocity. If they did not, they would recombine with ions when they collided.
The laser would not selectively work on only the electrons, although (due to their lower mass) they would be accelerate more than the ions.
A large amount of energy would not go to moving the electrons and ions because the density of a plasma is low enough that most of the light would pass completely through.
06-19-04, 10:52 AM Kainchild Is it possible to create a high density plasma consisting only of electrons?
06-19-04, 01:19 PM methos In theory, I suppose. What you would need to do is sample part of a plasma into a very low pressure area, apply an electric field to separate out the electrons, and then trap them in an ion trap (an ion trap uses electric fields to trap charged particles). I'm not sure this could be properly refered to as a plasma, but it is what you're talking about.
The problem with this scheme is that electrons repel one another, so you would have to use quite a bit of energy and have a very good to get and keep the electrons in the trap in high concentration. Theoretically, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible, but I don't think anyone has come close to making an ion trap capable of holding the concentrations it sounds like you're thinking of.
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I don't know of any particularly good web sites on this concept, but you can find many by typing "ion trap" "Paul trap" "quadrupole trap" or "Penning trap" into a search engine.
There are two basic types of ion traps, the Paul trap and the Penning trap. They are both quadrupole traps.
In their idea forms, both traps consist of two hyperbolic endcap electrodes (A&B in the picture) and one hyperbolic ring electrode (C). In practice, the endcaps are closer to hemispheres and the ring electrode is often a cylinder.
It is impossible to confine an ion in three dimensional space using just constant electric fields.
In the Paul ion trap, a constant potential is applied to all 3 electrodes (the two caps and the ring) and a sinusoidal electric potential is applied between the endcaps and the ring. This alternately pushes the ions towards the ring and then the endcaps. the net effect is to push the ions to the center.
(Paul traps can also be made linear, with 4 rods (ideally hyperbolic, but usually cylindrical). Similar electric fields are applied, pushing the ions, on average, away from all the rods. In this case, they are confined to a line instead of a point.)
In the Penning ion trap, a constant electric potenital is applied to push the ions away from the endcaps. Recall that moving ions have curved paths in a magnetic field. In a Penning trap, a constant magnetic field is used to curve the ions away from the ring electrode. Again, the ions are on average pushed to the center.
That all holds for a single ion. When you have more than one ion, things get more complicated, because the ions repel each other. If you push two ions towards the center, they will each repel the other from the center. As long as the repulsive force between the ions is insignificant compared to the forces pushing them together, the ions will be confined near the cente of the trap. As you increase the number of ions, however, the repulsive force increases, which is why ion traps can only hold a limitted number of ions.
I do not know of anyone who has made a mirror from a significantly radioactive material. ************************************************* 06-22-04, 01:49 AM Kainchild That sound very confining. Is it possible to add an external influence to this trap to allow manipulation of the trapped particles to go in a direction criss crossed from it's oirinal position. Like for example you said the ions would be going up and down in the one example. Would it be possible to set up an external source to manipulate the ion (or electrons in my case) to be manipulated out of this trap in a cross cross direction to the up and down. Also concerning limited ions that can be hold in an ion trap. I see from what you described in the last part of your statement that repeling force would have a significant effect on the number of ions. Also the elctric field being the holding force keeping the ions traped, how much in theory of energy would be needed to create what I was talking before with trapping pure electrons, to apply to the electric field.
06-22-04, 12:02 PM Kainchild ok got another one, Is there a solid material that can absorb energy from a free electron like the way an object reacts to a ball be thrown at it and ends up moving?
06-22-04, 10:40 PM methos "Is it possible to add an external influence to this trap to allow manipulation of the trapped particles to go in a direction criss crossed from it's oirinal position." Yes. Of course, now it would have to overcome the forces pushing the ions back towards the center.
"how much in theory of energy would be needed to create what I was talking before with trapping pure electrons," I'm not sure, but more than anyone has yet been able to apply successfully.
"Is there a solid material that can absorb energy from a free electron" Just about any object, the problem being that the electron might well be absorbed if it was slowed down too much.
06-24-04, 08:59 AM Kainchild Got another question. What happens when you release free electons into a chamber made up of insulated material?
06-24-04, 09:26 AM Kainchild Actually the subject of ion traps side stepped from my orignal intent. You see I don't per say need to trap the free electrons. I just need to get them in an insulated chamber and I need alot of them to get in there. I need the details on how current technology brings about plasma and how one sets up this electric field to seperate the plasma from electrons and cause it to flow in a given direction.
06-24-04, 10:31 AM methos Insulators don't transmit charge effectively. This doesn't mean that electrons won't be absorbed by them when they collide with them.
The problem with trying to get a lot of electrons into one place is that you need to separate them from the neutral species. The only way to do this is to pull them into a low-pressure region. By forcing them together, yuo create a high-pressure region, so, in addition to their repulsive forces, you are trying to push things from low to high pressures. Theoretically possible, I'm sure, but it would require huge potentials.
If your goal is simply to have a large number of electrons one place, you might be better off forgetting about the plasmas and simply creating the electons with a filament inside an ion trap. You would still need quite high potentials to contain them, but you would be able to skip the steps described above.
As for creating plasmas, that's a large and varied field. There are (r.f. d.c. and pulsed)glow discharges, inductively coupled plasmas, and microwave induced plasmas, just to name a few, and they all operate quite differently.
06-24-04, 12:10 PM Kainchild How does the filament work? Does the ion trap extract electrons from the filament?
06-24-04, 12:11 PM Kainchild oh and what do you mean by neutral species?
06-24-04, 01:14 PM methos Neutral = non-charged (such as the gasses present wherever you are making this plasma).
A filament is essentially the same as you find in a lightbulb. Basically, you put a high current through a piece of tungsten, rhenium, or iridium, which heats the piece and it emits electrons. You can then manipulate those electrons with electric and magnetic fields.
How many electrons are you trying to make, and how small of a volume are you trying to get them into?
06-24-04, 01:57 PM Kainchild 1/2 a 1 cubic square feet, that's both the area space and the amount of electrons. I am actually going to need more for later on though. My question though is how does one get an electron gun to produce that amount in a cubic area.
06-24-04, 02:03 PM Kainchild Oh just to give you a better idea of what I am talking about, these electrons are placed into the direct flow of an energy, that's why I technically don't need them to be "trapped" in a specific spot.
06-24-04, 06:40 PM methos Gamma ray lasers and seperating things in plasma
quote:Originally posted by Kainchild: 1/2 a 1 cubic square feet, that's both the area space and the amount of electrons.
That doesn't give me an amount of electrons.
07-02-04, 01:55 PM Kainchild You mean electrons vary in size?
07-02-04, 02:10 PM methos No, but we aren't talking about a liquid or a solid here. You can have them packed in very tightly or have them spread out. (truth be told, this is true for liquids and solids as well, but the range is very small for them). The number of electrons per unit volume is called the electron number density. Without it, the volume doesn't tell you how many electrons are present.
07-02-04, 11:43 PM Kainchild Got another question. Is there another electron gun equivalent that doen't rely on filaments. I was hoping for something that won't burn out in time like a light bulb.
10-18-04, 11:30 PM clarebear You could try an ion gun. That won't use filiments.
It sounds like you are trying to make something. Maybe an audio-vibratry-physio-molecular transport device? Wink
10-19-04, 06:56 PM methos An ion gun uses an electron gun to ionize atoms, then directs the ions. It does contain a filament because the electron gun within it contains a filament.
10-19-04, 09:35 PM clarebear I could have sworn I saw a site that said that there are ion guns without filiments.
Ok.. I'm outta here. I will be in any non-scientific forum if you need me. Razz Smile
10-19-04, 10:16 PM methos Perhaps there are. The only ones I know about use filaments, but I'm no expert on them.
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