This is from another attachment that Bik sent to us. Bik, I hope it's okay that I'm posting these (I assume it is, because I know you were trying to find a way to do it).
These are the parts of the attachment, "Is the Quran the word of God?" that Bik highlighted. There are 15 pages (which I still haven't read completely) - if anyone wants the original for more info let me know. I have my own responses, but don't have time right now to give them. However, I thought I'd post the original and let others respond as well. I'll respond later, when I have more time.
quote:
And if he has a good knowledge he replies that the first person who proved that the world was spherical was Sir Francis Drake in 1597. I pose him a question, analyze what the Qur’an in Surah Luqman, Ch. No. 31, Verse No. 29, it says that… ‘It is Allah who merges the night into day and merges the day into night’. Merging means a slow and a gradual change. The night slowly and gradually changes into day and the day slowly and gradually changes to night. This phenomenon is not possible if the world is flat. It is only possible if the world is spherical. A similar message is given in Surah Al-Zumar, Ch. No. 39, Verse No. 5, that… ‘The night overlaps the day and the day overlaps the night’. The Arabic word used is ‘Tanwara’ as though you coil a turban round the head, coiling, this coiling, this overlapping of the night over the day and the day over the night is only possible if the earth is spherical. It is not possible if the earth is flat. You tell me it was discovered recently. Can you account for who could have mentioned this in the Qur’an 1400 years ago. May be it is a good guess, it is a wild guess, it is a wild guess but it was a guess I do not challenge him, I proceed. The light that we have the light that we obtain from the moon. Where does it come from. So he will tell me that previously we thought that the light of the moon was its own light, but today after science has advanced we have come to know that the light of the moon, its not its own light but it is a reflected light of the sun. I will ask him a question that it is mentioned in this Qur’an in Surah Al-Furqan, Ch. No. 25, Verse No. 61… ‘Blessed is he who has created the constellation and placed there in a lamp and a moon which has reflected light. The Arabic word for moon is ‘Qamar’ and the light described there is ‘Munir’ which is borrowed light or ‘Noor’ which is a reflection of light. The Qur’an mentions that the light of the moon is reflected light, you say you discovered it today how come it is mentioned in the Qur’an 1400 years ago? He will pause for a time. He will not reply immediately and then he may say may be, may be it is a fluke! I do not argue with him for sake just for the sake of discussion I say okay you say it is a guess I do not argue with you. Let us proceed, I ask him that when I was in school I passed my tenth standard in 1982. I had learned that the sun was stationary, the sun revolved but it was stationery so he asked me does this what the Qur’an says. I say no! this is what I learned in school, is it true? He says no. Today science is advanced, recently we came to know that the sun besides revolving it also rotates it is not stationary it rotates about its axis and if you have an equipment you can have the image of the sun on a tabletop. The sun has got black spots and it takes about 25 days for these black spots to complete one rotation. Does the Qur’an say it is stationary? He starts laughing Ha! Ha! I said no! the Qur’an in Surah Ambiya, Ch. No. 21, Verse No. 33…Arabic… ‘It is Allah who has created the night and the day, the sun and the moon, each one rotating about its own axis. It revolves and rotates, each one rotating about its own axis. You tell me who could have mentioned this scientific fact in the Qur’an which was discovered recently? He is silent and after a long pause he replies that see the Arabs were very well advanced in the field of astronomy so may be some Arabs told your Prophet and he mentioned this in his book. I do agree, I do agree that the Arabs were very well advanced in the field of astronomy but I remind him that his dates are very poor. The Qur’an was revealed centuries before the Arabs became advanced in the field of Astronomy. So it is from the Qur’an which the Arabs learned about astronomy. It is not the vice-versa. So Qur’an mentions about several scientific facts.
and
quote:
The Qur’an says in Surah Ambiya, Ch. No. 21, Verse No. 30…Arabic… ‘We have created every living things from water, will they not they believe’ …Arabic… Qur’an says… ‘We have created every living thing from water’. Will you not then believe. Imagine in the deserts of Arabia where there is scarcity of water who would have ever thought that every living creature is made of water. If they had to guess, they would have guessed everything but water and today science tells us that cytoplasm which is the main constituent of the cell it contains 80% of water. And every living creature contains 50 to 90 percent water. Who could have mentioned this fact in the Qur’an 1400 years ago?
and
quote:
Qur’an also speaks about the medicine. It says in Surah Nahl, Chapter No. 16, Verse No. 68 and 69, that you get the honey from the belly of the bee which we discovered today and in the honey, there is a healing for man kind. Today science tells us in the honey, there are antiseptic properties. No wonder that Russian soldiers used it to cover their wounds which left very little scar tissue. It is used in the treatment of certain allergies. Qur’an speaks about physiology. Its says in Surah Nahl, Chapter No. 16, Verse No. 66 and Surah Muminun, Chapter No. 23, Verse No. 21. It describes the blood circulation and the production of milk. And 600 years after the Qur’an speaks about blood circulation, Ibn Nafeez discovered it and 1000 years after the revelation of the Qur’an, did William Harvey made it famous to the western world. Qur’an speaks about Embryology. The first verses of the Qur’an to be revealed were from Surah Alaq or Surah Iqra. It says….Arabic… ‘Read, recite or proclaim in the name of thy lord who created’. Who created the human being from some thing, which clings. A leech like substance. This and several other embryological data which is given in Qur’an was taken to Professor Keith Moore who happen to be are of the highest authority in the field of Embryology. He lives in Toronto in Canada. And was asked the question. Whatever matter the Qur’an speaks about embryology, is it true? Some Arabs followed the guidelines of the Qur’an - if you are in doubt ask the person who knows so they asked Professor Keith Moore. Is it true? He said that majority. Majority of the matter in the Qur’an is 100 percent perfect matching with the latest discoveries of embryology but there are certain statements in the Qur’an, which I cannot comment on because, I myself do not know it. And one such verse was this that we have created the human being from something, which clings - a leech like substance. He went and got a photograph of a leech and examined in his laboratory in a very… under a powerful microscope the early stages of an embryo and it exactly matched with the photograph. Then he said, whatever the Qur’an mentions, its perfectly right and whatever new data he got from the Qur’an, he incorporated it into his book- The developing human. And took out a 3rd edition for which he got, the best medical book written by any person in that year. And he said that whatever the Qur’an mentions, all the things about embryology, we discovered recently. It is one of the latest branch of medicine. It cannot be written by any human being, it has to be of divine origin. The Qur’an says in Surah Tariq, Chapter No. 86, Verses 5 to 7. It says ‘Does no man think from what he is created? He is created from a drop emitted from between his backbone and rib. And today we know, that the genital organs, testes and the ovaries, during the embryonic age, they develop from where the kidney is placed - between the backbone and the 11th and the 12th rib. The Qur’an says in Surah Najm, Chapter no 53, Verse no 45 and 46, and Surah Qiyamah, Chapter No. 75, Verse No. 37 to 39, it says that it is the male which is responsible for the sex of the child which we discovered recently. The Qur’an says that the embryo is covered that the fetus is covered in three layers of darkness, which is confirmed today, the Qur’an describes the embryonic stages in great detail. In Surah Muminum, Chapter No. 23, Verse 12 to 14, and in Surah Hajj, Chapter No. 23, Verse No. 5, it says that ‘The human being have been created from a minute quantity of liquid’. From something which clings, a leech like substance, then made into a ‘mudgah’ a chewed like substance, then made into ‘izamaan’ that is bones, then clothed with ‘Laham’ that is flesh Qur’an describe the embryonic stages in great detail. The Qur’an also mention in Surah Sajdah, Chapter No. 32, Verse No. 9 and Surah Insan, Chapter No. 76, Verse No. 2, that… ‘It is Allah who gives you the faculty of hearing and sight’ and today medical knowledge tells us, that hearing comes first. It is developed completely by the 5th month of pregnancy. And then the eyes is split open by the 7th month of pregnancy. Qur’an gives the reply in Surah Qiyamah, Chapter No. 75, Verse No.s 3 to 4, that when the question is posed, how will Allah (SWT) assemble the bones on the day of judgement? Allah replies that we will not only be able to assemble your bone we even assemble your very fingertips. Qur’an is saying, Allah (SWT) can also assemble your fingertips. What does it mean? In 1880, Sir Golt, he described the method of finger printing, which today we use it to identify people. No two fingerprints even in a million people are identical. Qur’an speaks about finger printing method 1400 years ago. There are several examples of science, if you want to know more details, about the scientific knowledge, which is mentioned in the Qur’an, you can refer to my videocassette ‘Qur’an and Modern Science Conflict or Conciliation’ which, is available for sale in the foyer. I would like to give one more scientific fact that there was a scientist in Thailand by the name of Professor Thagada Shaun. Who did a great deal of research in the field of pain receptors. Previously science thought that only the brain was responsible. Only the brain was responsible for the pain. But recently we have discovered, that there are pain receptor present in the skin, which is responsible, Qur’an mentions Surah Nisa, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 54, that as to those who reject our signs, we will cast them into the hell fire and as often as the skin is roasted, we shall change it with new skin so that they shall feel the pain. Indirectly Qur’an is saying, there is something in the skin, which is responsible for the pain. It is giving an indication about the pain receptor. At first Professor Tagada Shaun could not believe. On verification when he realized that this book is speaking about pain receptor, 1400 years ago, he embraced Islam in a medical conference at Cairo and said ‘La ilaaha illallah Muhammad ur Rasool Allah’. That there is no God but Allah and Muhammad, May peace be upon him is the messenger of Allah.
What do you think? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
05-17-05, 10:12 PM GarColga Well I didn't get past the first sentence yet!
quote: And if he has a good knowledge he replies that the first person who proved that the world was spherical was Sir Francis Drake in 1597.
If memory serves it was Aristarchus, maybe Eratosthenes, who proved the earth was spherical, around the third century BC. So for some reason the person who wrote this has set up a straw man argument. It is well known that the knowledge of the classical Greeks was alive in the Middle East, although it had been forgotten in the West, until the Renaissance.
So the knowledge that the earth was round needn't have come from God at all.
05-18-05, 07:07 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by GarColga: Well I didn't get past the first sentence yet!
quote: And if he has a good knowledge he replies that the first person who proved that the world was spherical was Sir Francis Drake in 1597.
If memory serves it was Aristarchus, maybe Eratosthenes, who proved the earth was spherical, around the third century BC. So for some reason the person who wrote this has set up a straw man argument. It is well known that the knowledge of the classical Greeks was alive in the Middle East, although it had been forgotten in the West, until the Renaissance.
So the knowledge that the earth was round needn't have come from God at all.
Wont argue the third century belief.... but was it proven cause as i know some great men even till columbus discovered americas thought the world might be flat. It was clealr proven to be round/spherical (whatever) in the 15th or 16th century. So if prophet Muahmmed just copied it) without understand.. it was a BIG RISK. _______________________ Could anyone please tell what greek influence was there in present saudia arabia? One one side of present saudia arabia wee the periosn & the other side....(some other empire which i though were romans) but juan will tell better. They were NOT GREEKS.
05-18-05, 07:12 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by bik74: _______________________ Could anyone please tell what greek influence was there in present saudia arabia? One one side of present saudia arabia wee the periosn & the other side....(some other empire which i though were romans) but juan will tell better. They were NOT GREEKS.
i meant in 600AD one side of present saudia arabia were persians & the other side some other empire. ___________________________________ And can anyone relate a book or document issued in 3rd century that tells earth was a round. So again we have more theories....or there is one? i do not know? But like i said before BIG RISK copying something without knowing the truth. __________________________________
05-18-05, 08:08 AM GarColga
quote: Originally posted by bik74:
And can anyone relate a book or document issued in 3rd century that tells earth was a round. So again we have more theories....or there is one?
This book contains a detailed description of Greek astronomy in general, as well as a summary of Aristarchus' life and work, and the complete Greek text and translation of On the Sizes and Distances of the Sun and Moon
05-18-05, 10:10 AM coldfuse The aforementioned Eratosthenes was the librarian in Alexandria, a calculated the earth's circumference at the equator to within 200 miles of what we know it is today.
Perhaps Rome's sphere of control was farther reaching, but I submit that Roman influence carries Greek influence ... for the Greeks influenced the Romans! Some of the ancient writings in Roman Arabia are, in fact, Greek.
What are we trying to discover in this thread? That the Quran is the word of God, or that it has merit as a scientific document? Is one supposed to be proof of the other?
Interesting stuff. I'd like to see what else comes up.
05-18-05, 11:23 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by GarColga:
quote: Originally posted by bik74:
And can anyone relate a book or document issued in 3rd century that tells earth was a round. So again we have more theories....or there is one?
This book contains a detailed description of Greek astronomy in general, as well as a summary of Aristarchus' life and work, and the complete Greek text and translation of On the Sizes and Distances of the Sun and Moon
Sorry couldnt use the link properly. However if u do know can you quote from the book texts which are relevant here, so that the theory that 'prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) might have used Aristarchus' work' can be supported. Just asking the dispute here is what has been written in Quran is wrong or copied ? Again can the link of greeks be made with Saudia Arabian region, cause before prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) I believe, all the rest of the area was not arabised (as it is today).
05-18-05, 11:32 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by coldfuse: What are we trying to discover in this thread? That the Quran is the word of God, or that it has merit as a scientific document? Is one supposed to be proof of the other?
Interesting stuff. I'd like to see what else comes up.
Hi well as you would know (if not guessed) that I am a muslim. Over a series of discussion that have occurred in the past weeks, I am basically finding a way to proove that Quran is the word of Allah. Offcourse all the non-muslims do not agree. I am not a very learned man and so decided to quote things from where ever i could find them. If all the things mentioned in Quran that can be proven or disproven, should help us determine if Quran is the worf of God. Offcourse we do not expect any major changes in belief.... but like you said the end should be interesting. The only unfortunate stuff is none of us is very qualified here.
BAB: This is the discussion i was refering that scientist should have with the Islamist. Peace.
05-18-05, 11:55 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by coldfuse:
Perhaps Rome's sphere of control was farther reaching, but I submit that Roman influence carries Greek influence ... for the Greeks influenced the Romans! Some of the ancient writings in Roman Arabia are, in fact, Greek.
Hey Juan it was you who told me that there were no romans in africa of asia at the time when prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) came?
But again... the dispute here is Quranic verses are wrong or copied..? please tell.
05-18-05, 11:57 AM Kendor
quote: Originally posted by bik74: ...I am basically finding a way to proove that Quran is the word of Allah.
That's an impossible feat, and a fruitless endeavor. What is to be gained? What does Quran say about faith? And if Allah desired you to have proof, wouldn't He simply provide it, without any encryption?
05-18-05, 12:01 PM juanruiz
quote: Hey Juan it was you who told me that there were no romans in africa of asia at the time when prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) came?
There is a major difference between Romans and Roman influence...the latter lasted for centuries after the fall of the Empire.
05-18-05, 01:03 PM Sarai Alright, now I have some free time, so I'm going to write as many of my responses as I have time for. Since I'm going to write fast, it may be hard for me to care for my tone, so everyone, please imagine I'm saying all this in the spirit of kind discussion and out of a desire to learn, not to prove I'm right, because I certainly don't know!
quote: And if he has a good knowledge he replies that the first person who proved that the world was spherical was Sir Francis Drake in 1597. I pose him a question, analyze what the Qur’an in Surah Luqman, Ch. No. 31, Verse No. 29, it says that… ‘It is Allah who merges the night into day and merges the day into night’. Merging means a slow and a gradual change. The night slowly and gradually changes into day and the day slowly and gradually changes to night. This phenomenon is not possible if the world is flat. It is only possible if the world is spherical. A similar message is given in Surah Al-Zumar, Ch. No. 39, Verse No. 5, that… ‘The night overlaps the day and the day overlaps the night’. The Arabic word used is ‘Tanwara’ as though you coil a turban round the head, coiling, this coiling, this overlapping of the night over the day and the day over the night is only possible if the earth is spherical. It is not possible if the earth is flat. You tell me it was discovered recently.
My first response to this is that it isn't clear at all to me that the Quran is saying the earth is round. Certainly, that could be one way to interpret it, but I can think of alternative interpretations. For example, "I pose him a question, analyze what the Qur’an in Surah Luqman, Ch. No. 31, Verse No. 29, it says that… ‘It is Allah who merges the night into day and merges the day into night’. Merging means a slow and a gradual change. The night slowly and gradually changes into day and the day slowly and gradually changes to night. This phenomenon is not possible if the world is flat." The idea of merging doesn't require the world to be round. Perhaps the world is flat and the sun and moon go around in circles above and below us, like a great ferris wheel. Because humans experience day and night as merging into one another, not as day suddenly becoming night, this doesn't seem to me to be such an amazing thing to have "discovered." That it doesn't pit itself against the idea that the world is round is nice, but not necessarily proof that Muhammed knew that.
quote: The light that we have the light that we obtain from the moon. Where does it come from. So he will tell me that previously we thought that the light of the moon was its own light, but today after science has advanced we have come to know that the light of the moon, its not its own light but it is a reflected light of the sun. I will ask him a question that it is mentioned in this Qur’an in Surah Al-Furqan, Ch. No. 25, Verse No. 61… ‘Blessed is he who has created the constellation and placed there in a lamp and a moon which has reflected light. The Arabic word for moon is ‘Qamar’ and the light described there is ‘Munir’ which is borrowed light or ‘Noor’ which is a reflection of light. The Qur’an mentions that the light of the moon is reflected light, you say you discovered it today how come it is mentioned in the Qur’an 1400 years ago?
First, like the previous argument, I don't think it is clear that the Quran says the moon reflects the sun's light. It simply says that the moon reflects light. This idea was not new. It was a view held by many of the ancient Greeks as well. That is not to say that I think Mohammed "copied" this from the Greeks or their Roman ideological descendants. Does the fact that the Greeks and Romans had a lot of scientific theories that more or less fit modern discoveries mean that the Roman gods are real? Or does it simply imply that people have always been capable of making rational theories? But anyway, I am definitely not accusing Muhammed of plagiarism. Instead, I think it is quite likely that such ideas were "in the air" in the Middle East, just as Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon using scientific ideas that were in the air in the US in the 1800s.
quote: Let us proceed, I ask him that when I was in school I passed my tenth standard in 1982. I had learned that the sun was stationary, the sun revolved but it was stationery so he asked me does this what the Qur’an says. I say no! this is what I learned in school, is it true? He says no. Today science is advanced, recently we came to know that the sun besides revolving it also rotates it is not stationary it rotates about its axis and if you have an equipment you can have the image of the sun on a tabletop. The sun has got black spots and it takes about 25 days for these black spots to complete one rotation. Does the Qur’an say it is stationary? He starts laughing Ha! Ha! I said no! the Qur’an in Surah Ambiya, Ch. No. 21, Verse No. 33…Arabic… ‘It is Allah who has created the night and the day, the sun and the moon, each one rotating about its own axis. It revolves and rotates, each one rotating about its own axis.
Again, check out that page about theories that the ancient Greeks had. This particular theory is definitely not new, and not very surprising. Many people believed that the sun and moon revolved around the earth. Thus, if you believe that, the best way to explain the visible cycles of the moon would be that the moon moves about on its own axis. If, as humans tend to, you like neat, pretty theories, it is very beautiful to think that the sun and moon move around the earth in one cycle, but that within those cycles the sun and moon each have their own cycles.
quote: You tell me who could have mentioned this scientific fact in the Qur’an which was discovered recently?
You tell me who could have mentioned this scientific fact in Greek understanding which was discovered recently?
I'll write more later. Smile
05-18-05, 04:33 PM DvdGStwrt I believe it is, but not for any of the details discussed here. Like I believe the bible is the Word of God also, but again not for the physical manifestations of truth.
05-19-05, 07:20 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Kendor:
quote: Originally posted by bik74: ...I am basically finding a way to proove that Quran is the word of Allah.
That's an impossible feat, and a fruitless endeavor. What is to be gained? What does Quran say about faith? And if Allah desired you to have proof, wouldn't He simply provide it, without any encryption?
Hi Kendor, we muslims &christains have adquate faith by the will of Allah. We`all belive in Him. Just letting you know that one of the questions that will be asked of a muslim on the day of judgement by Allah would be something ike this ' that I gave you faith, what did you do with it? hide with shame or tried spreading it?'. So I am justfied in trying to spread thr word of God... I agree at the end it will be the desire of an individual and the will, mercy & blessing of Allah to show light to anyone. You see when you go out to do something good charity or teach illiterate etc), the results should not demotivate you? Do the right thing and leave the results for God. You say the word of Quran is encrypted.... Quran doesnt say that. It sounds encrypted because as said by 'maurice Bucaille' the ancient languages (arab)were very simple and used simple words to describe complex matters. Greek words perhaps doesnt look complicated because, the words science usualy use today were derived from Greeks. It is not impossible & I have no concern with fruits... Smile
Peace brother. _________________________________ Right now I believe nobody here is challenging the things written in Quran but some are emplying that either it may have been copied or as nicely said by Sarai, Muhammed (peace be upon him) could have been a very intelligent man to figure these things out by himself or use the knowledge of someone close to him.
The thing to do here is learn precisley what was written in Greek. GarCola did try & give the location of the book, but i wasnt able to get it. But please do agree Sarai.... what is written in Quarn is not being challenged.... rather being rationalised that even though what Quran says is true (or atleast not wrong), this still could simply a work of a man.
05-19-05, 07:26 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by DvdGStwrt: I believe it is, but not for any of the details discussed here. Like I believe the bible is the Word of God also, but again not for the physical manifestations of truth.
I take it that u r a christain. I too believe that Quran & Bible are the word of God and like you not for the details discussed here. One has to convince people about God ideallly in their own way. People here (or say athesist & agonistics) like rationalising things (which is good). Things like Muahmmed (peace be upon him) was an illiterate (they do not believe)... so we have to try convincing people in a different way with no offence to ANYONE. Take care & peace.
05-19-05, 07:54 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by GarColga: [QUOTE]Originally posted by bik74:
This book contains a detailed description of Greek astronomy in general, as well as a summary of Aristarchus' life and work, and the complete Greek text and translation of On the Sizes and Distances of the Sun and Moon
I was not abel to go to that site, but instead serched other sites with the same name. Indeed the person had skills and was ahead of his time. What i briefly learned is that though his measurements were very good they were far from precise. This is what was written in one of the sites: _________________________________ He figured that, 'the Moon must be about half as big as the Earth. Note that he already knew the approximate size of the Earth. Actually, the Moon is about 1/4 as big as the Earth'. __________________________________ SARAI WROTE quote: You tell me who could have mentioned this scientific fact in the Qur’an which was discovered recently?
You tell me who could have mentioned this scientific fact in Greek understanding which was discovered recently? ________________________________ Man discovered these scientifc facts in greek, great intelligent men but only men. Work of God as we know canot be at a slight fault.
So while we will try and have a greater look at the work of Greek & relation to the writing in Quran (if any), it is said everywhere that the Aristarchus' life and work was lost in fire (when was the fire i do not know)and he was 900 years before prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him), I find it hard to undertsand or believe that while none was accepting or popularising his work in Europe, but people in the middle of the dessert decided to rely on his work.
05-19-05, 08:06 AM GarColga
quote: Originally posted by bik74:
The thing to do here is learn precisley what was written in Greek. GarCola did try & give the location of the book, but i wasnt able to get it.
bik74, the fact that the ancient Greeks knew the world was round is common knowledge. I think I learned this in grammar school.
Here is an article about Eratosthenes from Wikipedia:
If you just put his name into Google you can find many many websites concerning him and how he was able to deduce the circumference of the earth.
05-19-05, 08:12 AM GarColga
quote: Originally posted by bik74: I find it hard to undertsand or believe that while none was accepting or popularising his work in Europe, but people in the middle of the dessert decided to rely on his work.
bik74 - do you really not know about the Dark Ages? The collapse of the Roman Empire?
05-19-05, 08:22 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by GarColga:
quote: Originally posted by bik74: I find it hard to undertsand or believe that while none was accepting or popularising his work in Europe, but people in the middle of the dessert decided to rely on his work.
bik74 - do you really not know about the Dark Ages? The collapse of the Roman Empire?
Please do explain the dark ages (the time), collapse of roam empire... and all of its relation to this topic of prophet Muahmmed (peace be upon him) or even present Saudia Arabia. If its ok & u do have a litttle time.
05-19-05, 08:37 AM GarColga Sorry don't have the time! You can use the internet to find out all you need to know about the history of western civilization.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 2241 | Location: In between | Registered: 06-03-02
Originally posted by GarColga: Sorry don't have the time! You can use the internet to find out all you need to know about the history of western civilization.
Ok i will when I have the time.. but at least explain the link to the topic here or the link to present Saudia Arabia...... +++++++++++++++++++++ 05-19-05, 09:59 AM Sarai I'm looking for the information Bik asked for. I admit that I'm having some trouble... it does appear to me that science didn't make its great appearance in Saudi Arabia until the first dynasty of caliphs, which would imply that it came after Muhammed. Can anyone else find any other information?
One question, Bik: What year was the Quran first written down?
05-19-05, 10:17 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Sarai: I'm looking for the information Bik asked for. I admit that I'm having some trouble... it does appear to me that science didn't make its great appearance in Saudi Arabia until the first dynasty of caliphs, which would imply that it came after Muhammed. Can anyone else find any other information?
One question, Bik: What year was the Quran first written down?
I have to go now... ill answer this question.
The first revelation that came to prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) was when he was 40 years old (in a cave). So that it means it was 610AD. He (peace be upon him) died 22 years later (632AD).
05-19-05, 10:37 AM Sarai Bik, that was the year Mohammed recited what he believed he heard. But he was illiterate, so he couldn't have written it down. Who first wrote it down, and when?
05-19-05, 01:29 PM GarColga OK I am not arguing about what Mohammed knew or didn't know - the OP said that Sir Francis Drake was the first person to discover that the world was round, and that simply is not true. The person who wrote the article is being disingenuous or is shockingly ill informed.
Besides, Ferdinand Magellan's fleet circumnavigated the globe generations before Drake's 'discovery'.
05-20-05, 08:11 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Sarai: Bik, that was the year Mohammed recited what he believed he heard. But he was illiterate, so he couldn't have written it down. Who first wrote it down, and when?
Sorry for the miscummunication here. I thought u were asking the first revelation. Part of the answer is when u asked about 'why muslims believe that Quran is not changed and will not change'. Yes prophet Muahmmed (peace be upon him) was illitrate. Whatever he used to hear , he used to tell to his companions and they used to write it. So before he died all the Quranice verse were there in writings (& people like today knew it by heart). It was roughly 12 years after his death , under Usman that all the writings were compiled into what we have today Quran. Do look at the previous answer I gave (again).
What i am telling is basically general knowledge for muslims. So if one or two fugures are slightly incorrect i would like to apologise. Peace.
05-20-05, 09:25 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by GarColga:
quote: Originally posted by bik74: I find it hard to undertsand or believe that while none was accepting or popularising his work in Europe, but people in the middle of the dessert decided to rely on his work.
bik74 - do you really not know about the Dark Ages? The collapse of the Roman Empire?
No idea why the irritated sound was there in the above messages. But here is what i got from the sight From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The Dark Ages (or Dark Age) is a metaphor with multiple meanings and connotations. It is most commonly known in relation to European history, but it is also used to denote other periods from which events are relatively obscure because of a lack of knowledge. "Dark Age" is often used generally to emphasize the violence or difficulty of a particular period, while it is employed more formally to denote an era that is archelogically obscure. In addition to its historiographic function, "Dark Age" has also been applied usefully to describe the time in the early cosmos, after the brilliance had faded but before the first stars began to shine.
''Most commonly, as applied to European history, the term "Dark Ages" was originally used to denote the 900-year period between the fall of the western Roman Empire in the 5th century and the reappropriation and interpretation of classical Greek and Roman culture embodied in the Renaissance. This concept of a "Dark Age" was first created in the early 14th Century by the humanist Petrarch and was originally intended as a pejorative sweeping criticism of the lack of Latin literature. Later historians expanded the term to include not only the lack of Latin literature, but a lack of cultural achievements in general''.
I knew what dark ages was but not precisely the time. I believe my statement about the 'Greek work being rejected or not popularised in europe but accepted in Arab is not logical' does hold ground considering if the muslims only copied all the information.
05-20-05, 09:32 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Sarai: I'm looking for the information Bik asked for. I admit that I'm having some trouble... it does appear to me that science didn't make its great appearance in Saudi Arabia until the first dynasty of caliphs, which would imply that it came after Muhammed. Can anyone else find any other information?
One question, Bik: What year was the Quran first written down?
My first try here of linking a site over here:
is not successful. But i suppose copy & pasting works. I got this information from 'MUSLIM SCIENTIST AND ISLAMIC CIVILISATION' article.
This is a partial list of some of the leading Muslims. Major Muslim contributions continued beyond the fifteenth century. Contributions of more than one hundred other major Muslim personalities can be found in several famous publications by Western historians. Biographies are available in the Islamic Civilization E-book. Jabir Ibn Haiyan (Geber) Chemistry (Father of Chemistry) Died 803 C.E. Al-Asmai Zoology, Botany, Animal Husbandry. 740 - 828 Al-Khwarizmi (Algorizm) Mathematics, Astronomy, Geography. (Algorithm, Algebra, calculus) 770 - 840 'Amr ibn Bahr Al-Jahiz Zoology, Arabic Grammar, Rhetoric, Lexicography 776 - 868 Ibn Ishaq Al-Kindi (Alkindus) Philosophy, Physics, Optics, Medicine, Mathematics, Metallurgy. 800 - 873 Thabit Ibn Qurrah (Thebit) Astronomy, Mechanics, Geometry, Anatomy. 836 - 901 'Abbas Ibn Firnas Mechanics of Flight, Planetarium, Artificial Crystals. Died 888 Ali Ibn Rabban Al-Tabari Medicine, Mathematics, Caligraphy, Literature. 838 - 870 Al-Battani (Albategnius) Astronomy, mathematics, Trigonometry. 858 - 929 Al-Farghani (Al-Fraganus) Astronomy, Civil Engineering. C. 860 Al-Razi (Rhazes) Medicine, Ophthalmology, Smallpox, Chemistry, Astronomy. 864 - 930 Al-Farabi (Al-Pharabius) Sociology, Logic, Philosophy, Political Science, Music. 870 - 950 Abul Hasan Ali Al-Masu'di Geography, History. Died 957 Al-Sufi (Azophi) Astronomy 903 - 986 Abu Al-Qasim Al-Zahravi (Albucasis) Surgery, Medicine. (Father of Modern Surgery) 936 - 1013 Muhammad Al-Buzjani Mathematics, Astronomy, Geometry, Trigonometry. 940 - 997 Ibn Al-Haitham (Alhazen) Physics, Optics, Mathematics. 965 - 1040 Al-Mawardi (Alboacen) Political Science, Sociology, Jurisprudence, Ethics. 972 - 1058 Abu Raihan Al-Biruni Astronomy, Mathematics. (Determined Earth's Circumference) 973-1048 Ibn Sina (Avicenna) Medicine, Philosophy, Mathematics, Astronomy. 981 - 1037 Al-Zarqali (Arzachel) Astronomy (Invented Astrolabe). 1028 - 1087 Omar Al-Khayyam Mathematics, Poetry. 1044 - 1123 Al-Ghazali (Algazel) Sociology, Theology, Philosophy. 1058 - 1111 Fall of Muslim Toledo (1085), Corsica and Malta (1090), Provence (1050), Sicily (1091) and Jerusalem (1099). Several Crusades. First wave of devastation of Muslim resources, lives, properties, institutions, and infrastructure over a period of one hundred years. Refer to Muslim History. Translators of Scientific Knowledge in the Middle Ages Abu Bakr Muhammad Ibn Yahya (Ibn Bajjah) Philosophy, Medicine, Mathematics, Astronomy, Poetry, Music. 1106 - 1138 Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar) Surgery, Medicine. 1091 - 1161 Al-Idrisi (Dreses) Geography (World Map, First Globe). 1099 - 1166 Ibn Tufayl, Abdubacer Philosophy, Medicine, Poetry. 1110 - 1185 Ibn Rushd (Averroes) Philosophy, Law, Medicine, Astronomy, Theology. 1128 - 1198 Al-Bitruji (Alpetragius) Astronomy Died 1204 Second wave of devastation of Muslim resources, lives, properties, institutions, and infrastructure over a period of one hundred and twelve years. Crusader invasions (1217-1291) and Mongol invasions (1219-1329). Crusaders active throughout the Mediterranean from Jerusalem and west to Muslim Spain. Fall of Muslim Cordoba (1236), Valencia (1238) and Seville (1248). Mongols devastation from the eastern most Muslim frontier, Central and Western Asia, India, Persia to Arab heartland. Fall of Baghdad (1258) and the end of Abbasid Caliphate. Two million Muslims massacred in Baghdad. Major scientific institutions, laboratories, and infrastructure destroyed in leading Muslim centers of civilization. Refer to "A Chronology of Muslim History Parts III, IV." Ibn Al-Baitar Pharmacy, Botany Died 1248 Nasir Al-Din Al-Tusi Astronomy, Non-Euclidean Geometry. 1201 - 1274 Jalal Al-Din Rumi Sociology 1207 - 1273 Ibn Al-Nafis Damishqui Anatomy 1213 - 1288 Al-Fida (Abdulfeda) Astronomy, Geography, Histrory. 1273 - 1331 Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (Ibn Battuta) World Traveler. 75,000 mile voyage from Morocco to China and back. 1304 - 1369 Ibn Khaldun Sociology, Philosophy of History, Political Science. 1332 - 1395 Ulugh Beg Astronomy 1393 - 1449
05-27-05, 06:07 AM philalethist Isaiah 40:22
05-27-05, 09:30 AM Sarai I looked up Isaiah 40:22 and found this:
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; th at stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."
Philalethist, I don't understand the relation between this and the question, although I'm sure there is one. Could you explain it to me?
05-27-05, 10:01 AM newnickname It's kind of depressing, but there seem to be both Muslims and Christians who have neither enough confidence in their faith to hold it simply as a faith, nor enough understanding of science and historical research to convince anyone not already of their faith.
They seem to percieve a prestige in scientific thought that they covet. But their suppposedly rational proofs of their faith (can there be a rational proof for faith?) don't work.
Isaiah 40:22 is the Christian equivalent of this claim that holy scripture already stated what all these smarty-pants scientists worked out from observation; that the earth is a sphere. However the verse can obviously be taken as saying that earth is a two-dimensional circle (a 'compass' in some translations) with a dome or tent of 'sky' above it (a cosmology of the time the verse was written).
Isaiah 40:22 says that God "sits enthroned above the circle of the earth". That image makes less sense with the earth as a globe (the Australians are hiding?). The Hebrew word used is '(k)hug' (?spelling) which means circle. Some sites say 'hug' means 'sphere' - but Isaiah 22:18 ("He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball...") clearly refers to a sphere and uses the Hebrew word 'dur'. www.answering-christianity.com
05-29-05, 02:04 PM philalethist To The One Called Sarai
I beleave the discusion was one concering who first found that the world was round. The last I heard a circle is round. Isaiahs writtings were from somewhere in the area of 700 BC. And if you look from your own point of view the whole world falls away from the point on which you are on. Male or female the point is the same. Have a nice day
05-29-05, 03:04 PM newnickname The discussion is about who first showed that the earth is a sphere. A circle is not a sphere. You're deliberately confusing the possible meanings of the English word 'round'.
05-29-05, 03:11 PM philalethist If Indeed that be the case I surely do not feel alone
05-30-05, 01:36 AM DvdGStwrt Faith (Belief in God/Allah) is not science - nor should it be. God/Allah/Deity does not make their presence scientifically provable simply because to do so would remove the doubt that faith needs to grow.
Any hard evidence of a God/Deity would remove the need for faith in Deity/God. As long as there is no proof then it is still an individual choice to believe or disbelieve.
To use the bible, Koran, Vetta, etc to establish science in an era when there was none is simply wish fulfillment through interpretating things to mean what we want them to mean. These books are pathways to the spiritual - nothing more, nothing less. Their inspiration is from Deity in as much as they attempt (poorly I might add) to define God/Deity, Mankind and the relationship between the two.
05-30-05, 05:47 AM tsaeb What is spherical in three dimensions is round in two dimensions. God, not us, chooses whether He wants to use three or two dimensions when He presents designs.
05-30-05, 09:31 AM Sarai Philalethist: I gather from your post that you think I was being smart... but I really didn't see the connection, so in reality, I was being dumb. Now I get it. Thanks! Smile
Personally, I think that quotation from the Bible demonstrates as much accuracy as the Quran does. That is, it doesn't prove anything to me, but I can see how someone faithful can see scientific accuracy in it.
06-02-05, 12:21 PM philalethist Accuracy
So really whats the big deal? So mankind finaly figured out the world is round after Billions of years that the earth has been. Yet nobody has figured out what the truth is really all about. So mankind goes round and round. Churches are the seat of the Beast and even if all the denominations rewrite the Bible(s) it only results in them being further seperated from truth. Now the old testament has been around longer than the New and the new around longer than the Quran yet none concerned has figured it out. Just suppose they are all wrong. It may be as simple as John 20:27 Put hither thy finger and behold the hand you will see is your very own.
06-03-05, 10:37 AM VelvetVoice Then, philalethist, "what is Truth?"
From where does your knowledge of God come, and how do you know whether you worship correctly? The Bible talks about God's relationship to man, and it is His method of revealing Himself to us. Most translations are close to 99% accuracy, so the truth of scripture should come through no matter the actual language.
It worries me that you say all churches are the seat of the beast. One of the directives we have in the Bible is to fellowship with those of like minds. "Do not forsake the gathering together of your brethren."
06-03-05, 01:13 PM babthrower The quotation provided by bik:
“...the Qur’an in Surah Luqman, Ch. No. 31, Verse No. 29, ... says that… ‘It is Allah who merges the night into day and merges the day into night’. Merging means a slow and a gradual change. The night slowly and gradually changes into day and the day slowly and gradually changes to night. This phenomenon is not possible if the world is flat. It is only possible if the world is spherical....”
What an odd conclusion to draw! Surely the master of the universe could create lighting effects at least the equivalent of those of a competent stage manager! (A stage is flat.) The writers described what they saw, and attributed it to the miraculous power of Allah, it’s that simple.
Bik says further, “... was it proven cause as i know some great men even till columbus discovered americas thought the world might be flat.”
This is true. Some, but by no means all. It is true because the Scholastic philosophers (a western European movement) interpreted the words of Plato to mean that the world was flat in a spherical universe. The Scholastics did not study the Greek astronomers, only mainly two philosophers (Plato and Aristotle). Aristotle taught that the world was spherical, because of the evidence of lunar eclipses, but since the O.T. taught it is flat, and Christian tradition taught it was flat, Aristotle, being a pagan, was trumped. (Plato thought it was flat.))
The O.T. speaks of the ‘four corners’ of the earth. Psalm 24 says, “...He built [the earth] on the deep waters ... and laid its foundations in the ocean depths.” The O.T. was a cultural outgrowth of Babylonian thought, and the Babylonians believed the world was flat.
Matthew (N.T.) speaks of seeing to the end of the earth, and seeing all kingdoms.
The Christian flat-earth theory was supported by St. Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386 CE); St. John Chrysostom (344-408 CE); Severian, Bishop of Gabala (408 CE); and others.
The Scholastic fusion of Greek and Catholic thought eventually became Roman Catholic dogma. (But not Greek Catholic.) . (Here Juan will point out that it was not dogma, it was only certain Catholics teaching that it was dogma, and they oughtn’t to have done that: but you got burned just the same if you said otherwise.)
The Scholastic Tradition had no effect on Muslim thought (though i'm sure Muslim scholars were aware of it, long after Muhammed's time.)
So, again, the theories that Muhammed could easily have encountered included the flat earth theory and the spherical earth theory. Both were prevalent in his day.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: babthrower, 06-0
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
"So mankind finaly figured out the world is round after Billions of years that the earth has been."
(1) Mankind has not been around for billions of years to try to figure anything out.
(2) The world is not round. A snapshot taken from space of the earth would show a round image -- a disk. The shadow of the earth cast by the sun on the surface of the moon suggests that the earth is round or a sphere.
But if the world were round (and not a sphere) it would be extremely hard to get to Australia -- the oceans would be flowing off the edges of the disk, perhaps in both directions at once? So visiting -- not to mention settlement -- of the antipodes would have had to wait until air travel was invented.
As for Isaiah 40:22, what about Isaiah [11:12], Ezekiel [7:2], Revelation [7:1], Psalm 24:2 and Daniel [4:10-11, 20]? +++++++++++++++++++++ 06-03-05, 05:55 PM doñadiana
quote: Originally posted by babthrower:
As for Isaiah 40:22, what about Isaiah [11:12], Ezekiel [7:2], Revelation [7:1], Psalm 24:2 and Daniel [4:10-11, 20]?
None of these scriptures proves anything about the shape of the earth not were they meant to. It is poetic language, the language of prophecy. It is meant to create a certain imagery in the minds of the readers. We use this kind of language ourselves in English including the expression "four corners of the earth".
DD
06-03-05, 06:56 PM philalethist I did not say That mankind has been around for billions of years but I did say the earth has been. Where does my knowledge of God come from? Romans 10:17 from the word itself. 1 Cor 8:3 says that if any man loves God the same is known of him. This I know, do you know who God really is according to the word¿ Isaiah 29:21. Revelations 2:17 speaks of the hidden Manna, Have you eaten it yet¿ 2 Tim 2:23 and it seems that I have gendered some strifes here by simply stating a truth of fact.
99% accurit ¿ how about the simple word blood, it is used in many of the modern versions as Bloodshead in Ezekial 35:6 and Mark 5.25 as Hermerage, yet not in John 6:53. I understand that blood is the life of all flesh. Lev 17:14.
Gather together with those of like minds? Good idea, where are they? My breatheren are those who hear the will of God and do it. Where are they?
So Christians prey the sinners prayer right? 1 John 3:8 he who sins is of the devil and is not of my brotheren.
06-04-05, 06:42 AM philalethist [quote VelvetVoice]Then, philalethist, "what is Truth?"[/quote] Truth is what is in the best interest of your life for the length thereof and also truth and love are one and the same
06-04-05, 02:39 PM bik74 Salam everyone. Sorry for not participating in these discussion. I have been travelling a lot and having loads of personal problems.
The article being discussed has a lot of other claims as well besides the earth being round. Please do discuss those as well.
I will soon inshAllah start making my comments again. Peace be with all of you.
06-05-05, 02:46 AM FredPuli Earth is round, a sphere? If you thought it was flat you'd need to explain where a ship went to as it gradually disappeared over the horizon. The people on the ship might ask the same about where you were standing . If that were a mountain the effect would be particularly pronounced, the mountain disapppearing gradually from the base .
06-05-05, 10:29 AM babthrower Bik reminds us:
"The article being discussed has a lot of other claims as well besides the earth being round. Please do discuss those as well. "
Let's take the next claim:
"‘Blessed is he who has created the constellation and placed there in a lamp and a moon which has reflected light.'
"The Arabic word for moon is ‘Qamar’ and the light described there is ‘Munir’ which is borrowed light or ‘Noor’ which is a reflection of light. The Qur’an mentions that the light of the moon is reflected light, you say you discovered it today how come it is mentioned in the Qur’an 1400 years ago?"
This confuses me. The English phrase "which has reflected light" is a translation of the Arabic. So I presume in the original the phrase was that the 'Qamar' had either 'Noor' or 'Munir'.
Well, which was it? Or did the original say that the 'Qamar' had both 'Noor' and 'Munir'? But if it said both, then the English would be "a moon which has reflected light and reflected light".
So it seems to me that the whole argument [that the Qaran was highly advanced and sophisticated scientifically] is disingenuous to say the least.
And science has yet to find the lamp that the text refers to.
You see the problem? We can't read the original Arabic and so we must rely on the translations you provide.
But we know from experience with translations from Aramaic or Greek that since English is a far, far richer language than Aramaic or Ancient Greek (by that I mean that it has a vastly larger vocabulary), the translator has a wealth of English words to choose from to translate one Aramaic word. In addition, there was no Aramaic dictionary in those days. This allows the translator to place his own interpretation on the Aramaic word, which is usually based on context; but can also involve a lot of guesswork, and possibly a bit of 'spin' based on his own preference or unconscious prejudice.
Example: The NT refers to Mary mother of Jesus as a [word] which means either a virgin or a young woman. Much theologically depends on which translation of the word you choose. It's true that in that culture most young girls were virgins but obviously not all were.
(Aside: Even in English the word 'virgin' can mean 'young woman':
'Young Molly, who lives at the foot of the hill, Whose fame every virgin with envy doth fill...' (Old folk song)
In this context, the envy was felt by both girls who had had sexual experience and those who had not; so technical sexual virginity was not a prerequisite to the envy.)
So to return to the quotation: "...a moon which has reflected light.'
But suppose the Arabic word which is here translated as 'reflected' (and not 'dim' or some other adjective) is in fact correctly translated. Any keen observer (and the arabs were a desert people, where the light is good for stargazing) could easily see that the light of the moon is far less dazzling than the light of the sun.
As long ago as 350 B.C. the idea of the moon receiving the sun's light was known. (Aristotle spoke of the shadow of the earth falling upon the moon's surface during an eclipse.)
So therefore it is false that the Quran in the 8th century A.D. had ideas about the moon which was not known until contemporary science revealed them to us.
What seems to confuse you is the well-known fact that Arab science was ahead of Western European science in the Dark and Middle Ages.
By the way, you have a lot of faith in contemporary science! More than I do. Science is forever correcting itself, as new data is discovered. So don't box yourself into any Quranic interpretation: it may prove embarrassing later. 06-06-05, 11:13 AM Sarai Bik sent me an email asking me to post this... so here it is! The Qur'an and Modern Science
06-06-05, 01:26 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Sarai: Bik sent me an email asking me to post this... so here it is!
The Qur'an and Modern Science
Salam everyone. Thanks a lot Sarai. Just incase if anyone is interested but not able to access or read the the huge article (book) properly, kindly search 'Quran and Modern Science by Dr. Maurice Bucaille'. Internet has amazing knowledge/source of information Smile
06-06-05, 01:43 PM babthrower I have read the article you posted, Sarai, thank you.
It is I presume the introduction to the items that Bik has already posted.
The author concludes, "They lead to the conclusion that it is inconceivable for a human being living in the Seventh century A.D. to have made statements in the Qur'an on a great variety of subjects that do not belong to his period and for them to be in keeping with what was to be known only centuries later."
For him, perhaps. But we have already shown that some of the ancient Greeks, whom both Christians and Muslims would call 'pagan', had similar insights into the way things work. We have already replied to the issue of the insights into human fetal development, showing that observation could lead to the conclusion that the female element contributed traits to the fetus and so therefore could be considered to form part of the fetus, just as did the male element. In fact it often surprises me that the Christians were so persistent in thinking that the sperm was a homunculus, a 'little tiny man', that was 'seeded' into the matrix of the womb just as a seed is planted in the ground. It does not surprise me that a semi-agricultural people such as the ancient Jews would form such a model; it surprises me that the notion persisted so long into the modern age.
But that's how humans often think: by analogy. They get in trouble when they reason that since they have found an analogy, that analogy becomes the sole and dominant model.
Similarly some of the ancient pagan Greeks thought of the earth as spherical (modern science says that it is only roughly spherical) and of the eclipse as evidence of that.
Also the pagan Greek Democritus invented the notion of the atom.
Do these insights of the early Greeks "lead to the conclusion that it is inconceivable for a human being living in the [fourth century B.C.] to have made statements .... on a great variety of subjects that do not belong to his period and for them to be in keeping with what was to be known only centuries later" ?
The article makes much of the fact that Mohammed was illiterate. It is a commonplace notion that illiterate people are both ignorant and incapable of rational thought. This is quite wrong. Illiterate people built Stonehenge and navigated the Pacific ocean by the stars and did all sorts of amazing things. Illiterate people are just like literate people in the sense that some, perhaps the majority, are unobservant and reason poorly, and others are keenly observant and reason exceptionally well.
Again, referring to the ancient Greeks, Plato said that he had managed to elicit, by questioning, from an illiterate shepherd boy, Pythagoras' theorum.
Every culture has its 'truths'. In illiterate cultures the truths are passed on by word of mouth, and certain people become 'wise men' or 'wise women' by virtue of the reliability of their statements. Every culture has stories to explain the origins of things. This topic is of enduring fascination to people -- all peoples. It is quite possible that throughout the Middle East there were strains of thought that had their origins in Greek thought. Just as today, American ideas spread readily throughout the world, partly because Americans are successful, and their ideas carry weight because of that, it is likely that in its day, when Greece ruled the known world, its ideas spread readily, too.
It's nice that a Pope cleared up some of the falsehoods spread by Christians about Muslims in the past. It's nice that a Pope apologized to the Jews for the falsehoods spread throughout Christianity in the past which caused their people such suffering in the West. Each Christian sect has told fairly vicious lies about other sectors, and I think they should apologize for that, too. But I must burst the bubble of all this niceness. It does not mean that Christians are at last ready to acknowledge the superiority of Muslim. In fact quite the reverse. The Pope believes, in a doctrine published in the middle ages, in the doctrine of Unam Sanctam... : that the entire world will be brought under the rule of the papacy and the Roman Catholic (catholic means 'universal') religion, both theologically and politically.
Having tried the Crusades as a method of bringing that about, and having failed, I suppose he thought that it's time to try the gentler method of persuasion.
Notice that the pope conceded that all three, Jews, Christians, and Muslims, worship one god. What he tactfully neglected to say is that only the Roman Catholic view is the correct one. But the way to make that argument convincingly is to start off by showing some respect for the views of those whom you would try to convert. It opens the door to dialogue.
06-06-05, 06:34 PM frankvan
quote: Similarly some of the ancient pagan Greeks thought of the earth as spherical (modern science says that it is only roughly spherical) and of the eclipse as evidence of that.
Eratosthenes, in fact, made a pretty accurate measurement of the circumference of the earth. 276 - 194 BC.
11-14-05, 05:57 PM bik74 My previous tries were hopless. Clearly science is out of my league. However please be patient with me and take time to read (when ever you can).
Not really concerned with the einsteins's comments here. Just do not want people to loose the above link & so answered this at the last. Then again there is no answer. Please everyone take your time to read the book with the above link. Thanks & peace.
John 8:31-32 So I continued in his name which is called "The Word of God" and I learned the truth becoming free. Now that I am free why should I waist my precious life reading what you dirrect to.
Posts: 1776 | Location: Kingsford, MI USA | Registered: 06-13-02
