A Jew, religiously speaking, can be said to be Jewish, or a follower of Judaism. OK, that makes sense.
A Christian can be said to be a follower of Christianity. That too makes sense.
Why is a follower of Islam called a Muslim???
I hope I am not being insulting, just curious.
And as long as we are at it, the term Jew comes from the name of Judah, one of the 12 sons of Israel.
The term Christian comes from the office to which God appointed his Son, that of Messiah or Christ.
What are the origins of the terms Islam and Muslim?
Thank you. ************************************************************* 02-13-07, 05:04 PM bik74 I do not know arabic, but will quote some sites and verses for the answer.
As per muslims, Islam is not a new relegion, but the relegion of all the prophet, Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Musa, Eisa and Muhammed (Allah bless them all). Muslims greet each other with 'assalam o aliakum'. (Peace be with you).
So Islam to my knowledge literally means 'to enter into peace'.
Relegiously it means 'to enter into peace (with oneself and others) by submitting to the will of Allah'.
The word “Islam” literally stems from the root “s-l-m” and the words “silm” and “salamah” which mean peace, and which indicate the “submission” or ‘surrender” of oneself to God Almighty, being obedient to His commands, embarking on a safe and secure path that leads to salvation, promising a sense of trust to everyone and everything, while also denoting the fact that the person surrendering will not inflict any harm on others, be it physical or verbal.
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found this on aother site :
Muslim Mu- "one who" + Islam; a follower of Islam. _________________________________________
Islam in its current form (that is Quran) was revealed to Muhammed. But the relegion is and was never about Muhammed (peace be upon him). Though we do pray to Allah to bless him. Islam is all about One God, so there was no need to name the relegion or the followers after Muhammed (peace be upon him). __________________________________________
Chapter 022.078 YUSUFALI: And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help! PICKTHAL: And strive for Allah with the endeavour which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor-due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!
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003.085 YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. ************************************************************* 02-13-07, 05:10 PM juanruiz
quote: so there was no need to name the relegion or the followers after Muhammed
It was common in medieval Spain for the Christians to call Muslims "Mahomatanos". ************************************************************* 02-13-07, 05:20 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz:
quote: so there was no need to name the relegion or the followers after Muhammed
It was common in medieval Spain for the Christians to call Muslims "Mahomatanos".
and many books from the west refered to us with that name (maybe a few muslims also used that term). Its not right. ************************************************************* 02-14-07, 12:09 AM Leppi
quote: Originally posted by bik74: and many books from the west refered to us with that name (maybe a few muslims also used that term). Its not right.
I was wondering, why do you feel it is not right? ************************************************************* 02-14-07, 12:20 AM DorianGreyed I think Bik explained that well. That the West has called Muslims by the names Musselmen, Mohammadans, or any variation of Westernized versions of Muhammad's name has no bearing on what Muslims call themselves. ************************************************************* 02-14-07, 12:29 AM Leppi I understand.... It may not be what muslims call them selves, but what is so wrong about a name used to refer to them? It's not like thier being called some filthy rotten name...... ************************************************************* 02-14-07, 07:28 AM bik74 I was not assuming that it was something derogatory. Christians are followers of Christ (peace be upon him) and it also indirectly refers to their belief of Divinity of Chirst (peace be upon him). Calling us Muhammadens may also result in a misconception, that we think of Muhammed (peace be upon him) as Divine. Thats not the case. ************************************************************* 02-14-07, 07:48 AM juanruiz It would be somewhat analogous to call Jews Mosesites, or some other major figure. ************************************************************* 02-14-07, 07:50 AM Bibleman Thank you. ************************************************************* 04-29-07, 08:54 PM Ken1Burton The Name Muslim means a True Believer in God. Abraham, Jesus, The Disciples of Jesus, seen as Muslims in the Quran, Moslem is a follower of the Quran or seen by many as a follower of Islam. So a True believer in God can be a Jewish Muslim, a Christian Muslim, or a Moslem Muslim.
QUR'AN 2:128 "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy Will, and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy Will, and show us our places for the celebration of due rites; and turn unto us in mercy; for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most-Merciful.
QUR'AN 3:52 When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be my helpers to the work of God?" Said the Disciples: "We are God's helpers, we believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
QUR'AN 3:64 Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, say: "Bear witness that we at least are Muslims bowing to God's will."
So in this last verse I used, Quran 3:64 Allah is telling the Moslems to ask the Jews to bear witness to them, That they also are true believers in God.
Ken ************************************************************* 04-30-07, 02:03 PM bik74 Yeah as per Islam, all prophets were muslims.
Haggai 2 7 I will shake all nations, and the desired of all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,' says the LORD Almighty. 8 'The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD Almighty. 9 'The glory of this present house will be greater than the glory of the former house,' says the LORD Almighty. 'And in this place I will grant peace,' declares the LORD Almighty."
the verse above is translated like this by late Abdu'l-Ahad Dawud (without translation 2 words):
"And I will shake all nations, and the Himdah all the nations will come; and I will fill this house with glory, says the Lord of hosts. Mine is the silver, mine is the gold, says the Lord of hosts, the glory of my last house shall be greater than that of the first one, says the Lord of hosts; and in this place I will give Shalom, says the Lord of hosts" ************************************************************* 05-01-07, 02:51 PM Ken1Burton Bik74
The House God is referring to is the day of the Cross when all of God’s words in the old Testament or Jewish Scriptures are fulfilled.
A House promised to David that his son would build, And that is not Solomon, But the Messiah, the Christ.
2-Samuel 7:11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
The House is the day of the Cross seen as 7 time periods or days, Seen as Silver tried in the Fire seven times, The day seen as three pictures is as Gold, So the Silver and the Gold are God’s words put together, and put into the right place.
The Name of the House is the Wilderness, Where Jesus was carried by the Spirit to be tempted, Shown what is seen in the Book of Revelation, Then given 42 Months to continue, The Spirit carries Him back, and Jesus shows unto His Servants the Disciples things which must shortly come to pass.
Proverbs 9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
Proverbs 24:3 Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established: 4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.
Job 39:6 Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings.
Ken ************************************************************* 05-02-07, 03:59 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton: The House God is referring to is the day of the Cross when all of God’s words in the old Testament or Jewish Scriptures are fulfilled.
Or it maybe refering to Ahmad (peace be upon him) and the relegion Islam. The temple may not be the second jewish temple built at that place or the third temple to be built on that place but the third temple that is currently present in that place for over a 1000 years. ************************************************************* 05-03-07, 12:18 AM Ken1Burton Bik74.
It is the Day of the Cross, That is the House, the day is taken out of time, the name of that day is “For ever” and that is when the House is built.
NOW, Most of that is Prophecies from the Jewish Holy Scripture, or Old Testament. And if you want to hold that the Jewish Holy Scripture is Truth, then let’s use it as Truth, all as Truth, and even compare it to the Quran. But if you want to say we have to go by the Quran, Then where is the Prophecy for the Temple in the Quran? Which now exists? If that is what God was speaking of?
See the problem? We can not use the Old Testament or Gospel, “”“ if ”“” they are not to be trusted. If they have been altered on purpose as many in Islam claim. It might be different if which verses were changed, taken out, added were seen for every one in question. But a General statement of it not being truth, That eliminates it as being used able to support anything Islam claims using it.
We have a fence here, What side do you wish to be on? Is it the Quran only can be trusted? Or all three can be fully Trusted? So where Jesus speaks of another coming, How can any trust that and use that verse in Support of Mohammad? After saying the Gospel was altered? That might have been a added verse? Now who would add a verse like that?
Ken ************************************************************* 05-03-07, 05:23 PM bik74 Matthew 16 ; 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
Your point is acceptable that i should not be relying on the truthfulness of the holy prophet (peace be upon him) based upon the bible. I do not quote such things for me but for you.
I said this before, I do not believe in Muhammed (peace be upon him) on account of Jesus, David or Moses (Allah bless them all) but I believe in Ibrahim, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, John and Jesus and few others on account of the testimony of one man. The greatest and the most influential man of all times ie. Muhammed al Mustafa.
The thing Ken is when you co-relate everything in the old testement to the cross... it does require some proof, because when i read the relevant verses thats not what i understand or see.
I trust only and only Quran for relegious guidance (and maybe a few hadiths).
For argument/discussion sake I would not reject any verse the old testement and the 4 gosples except with some proof and logic)and reject all the other new testement. For scribes of the old to change a verse, they first had to understand what it meant. ************************************************************* 05-03-07, 08:44 PM Ken1Burton Bik74.
If I had not read the Old Testament, and the New Testament, And even then, I went out and got a Jewish Holy Scripture to verify what the King James Version of the Bible was showing me for a Old Testament was in fact what the Jewish People have for their Scripture.
I did not Trust Christianity, I saw in the Old Testament Jesus over and over, So I questioned why the Jewish People could not see Jesus there, So I wanted to be sure what was being shown was their old Prophets, and Prophecies made before Jesus began an earthly ministry. I knew they would not change their books to fit Jesus.
As far as Christianity, I do not think they make a good witnesses to the Old Testament as far as Jesus is concerned. For it might be in their interest to Change the wording to better show what they want shown.
If I had only the Quran to go by, Never having read the other two. I do not think I would believe it at all. What has the Quran more then any other religion’s basis? What Proof can the Quran Standing ALONE show that there is a God? That His words can be trusted to be correct?
For it is only as far as I can see the Fact the Old Testament showed God speaking through over 40 prophets of future events which I see as all happening on One day in time, 400 years after the last prophet seen by the Scripture available as Malachi. And that Jesus Christ is whom He sent to fulfill those prophecies.
Seeing that, Then reading the Quran, I can see how God is speaking in the Quran, But not just by the Quran alone.
Also, What Witness is there to the Quran not having been altered? The Jewish Nation is witness to what Christianity has done with their Old Testament Scriptures. If you were to read a “New World Testament” which is very close to a King James Version, But put out by the Jehovah Witnesses, I think it is shown and each verse marked where the Jewish Nation claim Christianity in 143? verses changed the name for the Father, to be for the Son.
I do not know of any such watchdog over the Quran, But if the Jewish Nation were to go verse by verse in the Quran, There would be a lot of changes noted, Stories like Joseph, Joseph in the Quran was shown not to have tried to take the woman.
But Joseph was in Prison in Genesis, Told the Baker and the Butler, Their dreams, and through that, was Pharaoh informed of Joseph being able to tell Pharaoh’s dream.
Nice to have an innocent person proved innocent, But that does not allow the rest of the Story to take place. He had to go to Prison.
That story was just a Similitude, But it would have been noted as having been changed.
It is the Prophecies and the Fulfillment of the Prophecies which show there is a God, and Jesus is whom God sent to fulfill those Prophecies.
Ken ************************************************************* 05-04-07, 03:43 PM bik74 some of the biblical manuscripts found at Qumran differ significantly from the Masoretic text, most do not.
The KJV that you read contains verses not found in the oldest Greek edition of the bible (that is from the 15th century) and yet you still stick with it. The KJV mistakes one is able to find only on the basis of the 15th century Bible and it took some 300-400 years to correct them. WHY ? Based on this what about the errors that might be there in the 15 century Bible ? This point only related to the NT.
When did the Bible became accessible to public in general ? As far as i know it was centuries after Christ (peace be upon him).
Apologies for any mis-stated fact/opinions.
05-04-07, 03:50 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton: It is the Prophecies and the Fulfillment of the Prophecies which show there is a God, and Jesus is whom God sent to fulfill those Prophecies.
First if all dozens of prophecies one associates with Jesus (peace be upon him) in the bible do not even relate to him but relates to Muhammed (peace be upon him) 'son of man'. Prophecies fullfillment is certainly not the reason to believe in Allah or any messenger for me. You have claimed the year 2029 to be it... many before you have claimed different years, whcih altogather makes me wonder , if you have really read the scriptures. We cant know precise lywhen then end is. Now if whatever is suppose to happen in 2029 does not happen... what will you do then ? ************************************************************* 05-04-07, 04:21 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by bik74: First if all dozens of prophecies one associates with Jesus (peace be upon him) in the bible do not even relate to him but relates to Muhammed (peace be upon him) 'son of man'.
First of all (i meant)....
If the OT did not exist... would you believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) or the 4 gosples being from God? (ie if they stood alone). From your point, the answer seems 'no'. ************************************************************* 05-04-07, 10:59 PM Ken1Burton Bik74.
Mainly the Bible did not get into the hands of the people till 1611 King James Version, Called the king James Authorized version, For King James not only authorized it to be translated into the Common people’s language, But also for them to have and use it. Which was a death sentence to many prior to that.
The Church before that burned thousands of believers for having a part of Scriptures, or sharing what they knew of Scriptures with others.
Please list any prophecy you see in the Bible which you believe refers to Mohammad.
We are talking of a Spirit, A God we can not see, Who does not make Himself clearly known to all of mankind so there would be no doubt He exists. Just words on a paper claiming to have been from God does not really show anything.
There has to be some proof to God’s existence. Foretelling the Future in detail, And having over 40 different people who were not close, Show the same story, over 1500 years. Then having them all fulfilled in one day. The odds are impossible, without a very real God setting it up.
God does not need the witness of man, God set up His Own witnesses with His Words showing He is very real.
I have never heard of anyone claim when the Nation of Israel will awaken out of deep sleep and see that Jesus is the Fulfillment of the prophecies showing that He is whom God sent, He is the Christ.
I am not talking of a Second physical Coming of Jesus which most Christians and Moslems believe in. I make that quite clear, I also make quite clear that End times was for the day of the Cross. And that is what Jesus was speaking of about no man knows the day or Hour.
But looking back, it was Good Friday 29 A.D. Assuming it was 29 A.D. as I did not do the dating, and it is questionable if the actual date can be known unless God gives it.
We can read the Scriptures all we want, we can search till our eyesight goes, But unless God shows you what He has there, We will not see anything.
If nothing happens or is not happening, as there are 7 years of burning the weapons or the arguments against Jesus being the Christ, and 7 months of burying the bones or putting all the prophecies together. So this would all be coming together by then anyway. As it really gets started in 2021 or eight years of the transformation for the Nation to believe.
Then me and God will have a little talk. What I am shown, I show others. I trust God is showing me what is truth, and the References I use are correct for the concepts. I also have no doubt that God could pull the wool over my eyes, so to speak. And God may have reason to do such a thing.
Either way, And the Quran shows the same point, If you are shown Truth, You are to declare it. So seeing this as Truth, Declare it, I do.
Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Jesus was destroyed the day of the Cross, But what God destroys, He can also rebuild. Jesus thought He had the Pardon with the One Called the Good Thief standing up for Him, Part of the prophecies was for God to disappoint the Wicked, And Jesus had taken all future sins to Golgotha.
By taking all sins, all the Curses because of sin fall upon Jesus.
Deuteronomy 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Jesus had to go into hell, So it is written He is there, Then His Name is Blotted out, a Blotter was used after writing the Name to absorb the excess ink so it did not smear, it was not an eraser.
Then when Jesus rose, that also is written and His Name is blotted out FROM IN HEAVEN.
I am a messenger, and I am also showing the Scripture which supports the concept. The Message is not mine. So I have no glory if it comes to pass, or does not. Can we glory in what was given us? A message of small meaning, or of great meaning, Can one messenger glory by the magnitude of the Message? Or how meaningless it seems to the Messenger?
Surely the Glory is in making sure the message is relayed correctly. And a message which seems to have little value, But great labor to get that message out. In that a messenger is glorified. That he did not judge the message as worthless and toss it away.
If the Old Testament prophecies were not seen, and seen as existing before Jesus came to fulfill them, I do not think I would believe in them. There is a chance that knowing life could not have evolved because of all the systems needed to survive would have minutes to evolve before Death evolved for that simple life form. That I would believe in a Creator.
But if that were God shown in Scripture? Allah? Or any other. Or in one not seen, or in many not seen. I have no idea. Maybe just searching, For you end your search when the right answer fits the question being asked. And I do not see any right answer without the Prophecies and the Fulfillment.
There are so many unseen prophecies that keep popping up, God keeps me looking for more, and sharing more. And putting more interlinks in them, Showing they are from God.
Ezekiel 24:16 Son of man, behold, I take away from thee the desire of thine eyes with a stroke: yet neither shalt thou mourn nor weep, neither shall thy tears run down. 17 Forbear to cry, make no mourning for the dead, bind the tire of thine head upon thee, and put on thy shoes upon thy feet, and cover not thy lips, and eat not the bread of men. 18 So I spake unto the people in the morning: and at even my wife died; and I did in the morning as I was commanded.
At evening his wife died: God foretold it, Taking away the Desire of his eyes, the Desire of Israel’s eyes, was the Messiah they were looking for, The Time of the Evening Sacrifice, Jesus THEIR WIFE died.
Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
Jesus comes in the Volume of the Book. The Bear in Daniel’s four beast is seen as the Lord in Hosea 13:7/8's four beasts. The Bear in Daniel has three ribs in His mouth, of the day spoken of as three pictures by God’s word. And one of those pictures or ribs, is seen as a Woman.
Many of the Sins of the World require a female gender to do them, So God liken Jesus to a woman, First as their wife, So when He died at the time of the Evening Sacrifice, Their wife or desire of their eyes died. And God also likened Jesus to His wife, And under the law, a Husband could void a vow made by a wife, and God voided the Covenant Jesus made “No man cometh unto the Father but by Me.” as far as belief, as God blinded the Jewish nation from seeing Jesus is the Messiah.
Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. 38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed. 39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
God voids His WIFE’s Covenant or vow, And concludes all in unbelief, so He may have Mercy on them all, and He does have mercy on us all.
Ken ************************************************************* 05-05-07, 01:18 PM bik74 Persoanlly i have no problem if there is no second coming of Christ (peace be upon him). Come to think of it i am open to the concept of wrong intepretation of the second coming of Christ (peace be upon him). However that does not mean that he died on the cross. He did not, that is very clear in Quran.
Ken i request you state your beliefs as simply and as concisely as possible (its possibe we might have similar point of views). You are views are obviously different than the manin stream christians.
I will state a few verses with regard to Muhammed in the bible... ************************************************************* 05-05-07, 01:27 PM bik74 Genesis 21 : 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.
Genesis 25 : 13 These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 15 Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah.
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Habakkuk 3:3 God (his guidance) came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise."
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Deuteronomy 33:1 And this [is] the blessing, wherewith moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them."
(in bold refers to conquest of Mecca)
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Isaiah 21
13 An oracle concerning Arabia: You caravans of Dedanites, who camp in the thickets of Arabia, 14 bring water for the thirsty; you who live in Tema, bring food for the fugitives.
15 They flee from the sword, from the drawn sword, from the bent bow and from the heat of battle.
16 This is what the Lord says to me: "Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the pomp of Kedar will come to an end. 17 The survivors of the bowmen, the warriors of Kedar, will be few." The LORD, the God of Israel, has spoken.
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you will find rebuttals to the above from many christian sites. For me there cannot me a clearer reference to Muhammed (peace be upon him) in the bible than above. If that does not convince one, then the other dozen prophecies won't either. ************************************************************* 05-06-07, 01:06 AM Ken1Burton Bik74.
There is One God the Father, Jesus is the physical son of David raised to be the Son of God, God tole the Prophets what would happen the day of the Cross and all prophecies were fulfilled the day of the Cross.
God multiplied visions, and used Similitudes (Hosea 12:10) So even if some got mistranslated, Others would show through what the real meanings were. All mankind is saved by grace, God concluded all in unbelief, Hell was a place of sleep till Jesus died for sins.
All past and present sins the day of the cross were paid for “With His Stripes we are healed.” Then Jesus took Future sins to Golgotha, making an end of sins, and bringing in everlasting righteousness as Daniel 9:24 shows.
God did not show Jesus, the Disciples or Paul that sin ended as Accountable to mankind when those things were written down by them.
2029 A.D. the Nation of Israel will see Jesus is the Messiah, They will bring most of mankind into that knowledge. Because they will have it all together, and all the prophecies seen in the Correct order.
God then will be hearing their prayers and answering them THEN. And this the world will be seeing.
God hid seeing Jesus from the Jews, and He hid seeing Jesus clearly from Islam, When Israel sees clearly. They will show others.
I had never heard or considered Ishmael with Habakkuk 3:3 for Islam.
Habakkuk 3:2 O LORD, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O LORD, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy. 3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. 4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.
The day of the Cross is seen as 3 pictures, Or doubled twice to establish it, So “Revive Thy Work” in the MIDST of Thy years. Looks to me like the Second picture for the day of the Cross, The MIDST is the Fourth 6-hour period with the day seen as 7 days or a week in Isaiah 30:26.
Second picture is seen as a Desert, the people as the Sand. Horns coming out of His hand look like nails on a cross to me.
I wonder about nails plural, hand singular. I checked how the Revised Standard version worded it.
3:4 His brightness was like the light, rays flashed from his hand; and there he veiled his power.
Deuteronomy 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
The day of the Cross, The first 6-hour period from Sunset to Midnight is the “Right Hand.” Jesus speaking to the Disciples at the Last is also the first day in Genesis, A similitude of the Creation story which is the Beginning at the day of the Cross.
So from His Right Hand goes rays of Light: I am the True Vine, I am the Good Shepherd, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, In My Father’s House are many mansions. I go to prepare a place for you. Etc.
Thank you Bik74. That cleared up a few verses for me. I thought the horns were the nails on the Cross. So the Rays are plural, and the Hand is the first 6-hours or the right hand.
10 Disciples fled from the first 6-hour period, Multiplied by 1,000 in Deuteronomy 1:11
Psalms 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Peter is the thousand who fell by His Side, Judas was fulfilling God’s word, He is not seen as falling here.
Zechariah 11: 13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
The Lord is directing Judas.
God’s word is like as a fire (Jeremiah 23:29) So what God spoke through Jesus during those 6 hours are the fiery law given to them, And seeing Ishmael is looking at the Second picture for the day of the Cross. The Story of Abraham is a Similitude.
Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Abraham is from Midnight to Sunrise. Horror of great darkness is when Jesus had sins. People dead in Christ, or in the Bosom of Abraham.
Your verses from Isaiah 21. What Version are you using, The others were King James, or close to King James. What are Isaiah 21:13/16 from?
The Sword is the Second picture, Seen as 2 12-hour periods it is seen as a two edge sword. Jesus dead in the Sepulchre seen as the Sword in it’s Sheath.
Jesus had to be dead or in hell for one day, Three days and three nights is a similitude for one day seen as 3 pictures. The day also seen as:
Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
So Jesus is BOUND to fulfilling prophecy, For the day or year He has to be in Hell. Seen as a Desert, or a pit where in is no water.
Like I said, I had not heard of this in reference to Islam, So this needs time to consider. And If you have a dozen more, I would like to hear of them also.
Some question if God could make a rock so big, He could not move it, I would question if God made such a rock, What would He hide under it? For we need to look under every rock.
God’s word is like a Hammer:
Jeremiah 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Breaking the Rock in pieces? Like cutting a Diamond to show it’s brilliance?
We are not disbelieving God, We are looking at God from two different directions. But it is God we both are seeing. Sometimes it is not so much what God did that puzzles, But how did He do it, compared to the other things He did? How can it fit together without a contradiction?
Ken ************************************************************* 05-06-07, 05:27 PM bik74 God is One. Jesus (peace be upon him) is son of Mariam (may Allah bless her) a true and pious prophet of Allah.
The verses i quoted all point to Muahmmed (Peace be upon him) and no one else.
When God is Omnipresent (and which ever way you want top describe Omnipresent) does one realises that it is not God "Himself" that is "coming" from a given place, rather it is God's guidance and mankind's recognition of God that is being established in a given location. All this specific prophecies are being fullfilled through Muhammed and NOT Jesus (God bless them both).
The same verse deuteronomy 33 in KJV & NIV goes like this respectively:
And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
"The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with [a] myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.
Which ever way you look at it the fiery new law is Quran. The reference to "right" hand is a reference to strength, justice, and guidance. No prophet of Allah has been ultimately given more strength than Muhammed (Peace be upon him). None of these two conditions apply to Jesus (Peace be upon him). The 10,000 saints (myriads of holy ones) is when muslims conqured Mecca and made Kaba a place to worship one God alone, something that is going on still to this day.
NIV also tells you that Paran is in the south of Sinai and Seir (a reference to Moses and Jesus- God bless them both).
Teman is name dereived from tema a son of Ismaiel & so is Khidar.
Isaiah 21 refers to the flight of muslims from Mecca to Medina. It also tells us that the pople in flight will be victorious. The paganism (pagan Khidar) was finished off by none but Muhammed (Peace be upon him).
The begining of Isaiah 21 chapter verse 7 tells people to look out for 2 people (2 horsemen) one on an ass (donkey) and one in camal. A reference to Jesus & Muhammed (God bless them both).
There is no person that fits the above criterias but Muhammed (peace be upon him). ************************************************************* 05-07-07, 05:45 PM Ken1Burton Bik74
Isaiah 21:7 And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: 8 And he cried, A lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set in my ward whole nights:
The day of the Cross seen as 3 pictures, the First as 4 6-hour periods, the First 4 seals in the Book of Revelation are the Four Horses.
The day as 3 pictures, 1=Horses, 2=Asses, 3=Camels
So what the Watchman is saying is, I see the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Who is My Lord Jesus Christ,
“A Lion, My Lord.”
Jesus comes in the Volume of the Book, It is written of Jesus. It is fulfilled the day of the Cross. The 10,000 that fall at His right hand, all fulfilled in Christ.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Jesus knowing that Isaiah 21 is fulfilled as well.
It is every prophecy of the Old Testament which justifies Jesus, And it is every one fulfilled which ESTABLISHES Jesus as the Christ.
Mohammad wrote, Isaiah wrote, Amos wrote, Jesus healed the Lame, Raised the Dead, gave sight to the Blind, and you want to compare strength? And through Christ doing the will of the Father, Gave salvation to all mankind. Given by the Father, all power in heaven and in earth.
Mohammad fought as a warrior fights, Jesus fought as the Lamb of God. A bit of a difference.
Ken ************************************************************* 05-08-07, 10:13 AM bik74
quote: Isaiah 21
I think we are gonna go round and round on this. But i do say this you have a very big and yet consistent sense of imagination... everything some how is linked back to the cross Roll Eyes.
Look at the verse again (KJV & NIV)...
KJV 7And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels;
horse men are 2 (one in donkey and on in camal)... no three pictures are there.
INTL 7 When he sees chariots with teams of horses, riders on donkeys or riders on camels, let him be alert, fully alert
In International version the word OR is used. AGAIN no three picutre are there. OR.....
Verse 6 of the same chapter.... clearly says to appoint a watchman to look out for these couple of horseman. No known prophet has ridden a camal other than Muhammed (peace be upon him).
Once again the verse i quoted and Isaiah has been talking about Muhammed (peace be upon him) AND NOT Jesus (peace be upon him).
__________________________________________
You refered to Jesus (Peace be upon him) as the lamb and then Lion in the same post. I wont argue that as i consider Muhammed (Peace be upon him) the same.
All that you have written in the previous post... i totally disagree as that is not what is written. From the bible and bible alone can you relate Jesus (Peace be upon him) with 10,000 followers? for my knowledge? Can you relate him to Paran or Teman?.
You quoted Jesus as being Lion of the Tribe of Judah.
Once again i quote
Genesis 49 - 10. The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs [c] and the obedience of the nations is his.
You can quote me a dozen verses to proof that Christ (peace be upon him) is the maseeha but it still does not answer the above verse. The Shiloh cannot be from Judah. Muslims dont doubt that Christ (peace be upon him) was the promised once but he was not the only one promised and loads of verses being forcefully related to jesus , have no connection with him.
No one died for our sins. We face what we have done on the day of judgement. The only things that can save us are our beliefs, our good work, our repentence and Mercy of Allah.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 475 | Location: Kingdom of God & Heart of Dixie | Registered: 06-10-02
The day of the Cross is made as 7 days in Isaiah 30:26, and only the day of the Cross will fit there. Seen as 3 pictures, First as 4 6-hour periods, or all the first fours in the Book of Revelation.
First seal is the White Horse, Second is the Red Horse, Third is the Black Horse, Fourth is the Pale Horse.
A COUPLE of Horsemen? Ever see a Chariot with four horses? They often had two Horsemen.
Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
First Burden in Isaiah, Sunset to Midnight:
Isaiah 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
Babylon is fallen, Jesus just took sins, We are all as dead in Christ, Jesus is the Habitation of us all, We have all together become as an unclean thing.
Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Second burden in Isaiah. Midnight to Sunrise:
Isaiah 15:1 The burden of Moab. Because in the night Ar of Moab is laid waste, and brought to silence; because in the night Kir of Moab is laid waste, and brought to silence;
Jesus is SPEECHLESS, as a sheep dumb before the shearers.
Third burden in Isaiah, Sunrise to noon:
Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
The Judgment of Christ, Syria used when Israel did wrong, They came, When Israel did right, Israel was saved by God.
Fourth burden in Isaiah, noon to sunset.
Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
The day as 4 6-hour periods, The day as a river divided into four heads, The Fourth is the River Euphrates, Dried up, as the Second picture is seen as a Desert, or a pit where in is no water. As Jesus commends His Spirit to God at Golgotha, “He calls His Son, Out of Egypt.” all prophecies are for the day of the Cross.
Day as 7 time periods seen as different types of trees. To give hints which time period the different prophecies fit into.
Isaiah 41:19 I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the shittah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:
The day of the Cross as a house built, the name of the House is the “Wilderness” where Jesus was carried to be tempted or taken to the day of the Cross to see what He would have to go through. So the second picture as 2 12-hour periods seen as a Desert. And the Fifth Burden in Isaiah, Sunset to Sunrise.
Isaiah 21:1 The burden of the desert of the sea. As whirlwinds in the south pass through; so it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.
Second picture is seeing Jesus in hell, and it is a TERRIBLE LAND.
Two smaller burdens seen in Chapter 21. The day as 1-12 hour period, or seeing the two in it differently.
Sixth Burden in Isaiah, Second 12-hour period for the Second picture:
Isaiah 22:1 The burden of the valley of vision. What aileth thee now, that thou art wholly gone up to the housetops?
All visions are for the day of the Cross, A valley as they are in hell,
Seventh is the Burden of Tyre, or the whole day as 1 24-hour period as 24 Elders.
Isaiah 23:1 The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them.
No known prophet has ridden a Camel, other then Mohammad? Sorry, What is seen as the Wise men, coming to Jerusalem, were on Camels, and they knew to ask “Where is He who is born King of the Jews?”
Isaiah 60:6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.
Mohammad as the Lamb of God? The Sacrifice, Which had to be sacrificed under the law, Jewish Law, Which required the Jewish priesthood to offer the Sacrifice.
Jesus and Barabbas fulfilled the law:
Leviticus 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
NOW, A Lamb of God, or the Passover Lamb can be out of the Goats, and the Goat is the sin offering.
Exodus 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
We all as Sheep have gone astray, not as goats.
The 10,000 is the Ten disciples multiplied by 1,000 in Deuteronomy 1:11. Doubles they are the 10,000 times 10,000 in Daniel 7:10. The Thousands of thousands is Peter and Judas doubled.
Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Revelation is looking at the day of the Cross, Daniel chapter 7 is looking at the day of the Cross:
Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
A Lamb is a BEAST of the Field, This is looking at Jesus as He died, God’s Word like as a fire. Peter is the Little horn. Daniel is watching to see if Peter will deny Jesus or ot.
Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Both Daniel and Revelation is looking at the day of the Cross. The day as 7 time periods, seen doubled as 7 horns and 7 eyes.
God uses a lot of Similitudes, I just searched two different translations of the Quran, Paran or Teman were found in neither of them. Neither was “ten thousand” found in either of them.
It was the Tribe of Judah which ruled, The Tribe of Judah did not believe, Jesus is only a part of the Tribe, And Jesus is cut off the day of the Cross to fulfill Scriptures, God raises Him, and gives Him all power in Heaven and in Earth. So it is not Jesus given the Scepter when on the Cross with Future sins, But after Jesus died with those sins as His own, Then He is given the Scepter.
Jesus renders to mankind His righteousness in Job 33:26, So our obedience was given to us, when Jesus gave us His righteousness, So our obedience is really HIS. But credited to us.
So by grace are we saved, Through faith, and that nor of ourselves, Jesus gave us His righteousness which included His Faith, and His obedience.
You just took God’s works of Salvation and placed it on mankind, making the Grace and Mercy of God second to our works.
God concluded all in Unbelief, and Repentance is hid from His eyes, So you might have a hard time, if it were not for the love and grace of God.
Cute order: Our beliefs, Our good work, Our repentance, and last of all, You put the “Mercy of Allah.” Put the Mercy of Allah first, and eliminate the THREE OURS.
Ken **************************************************************** 05-09-07, 06:01 PM bik74
quote: Isaiah 30
I read the above chapter as that is the first reference you gave. It has nothing to do with Jesus (peace be upon him). I honestly do'nt have time to see all ur reference especially when i cant see one bit of a link/relation between those verses and the topic in hand.
Team/couple of horsemen.... that is 2 people. I have seen chariot with one horse and even 4 horses. But you forget the passage does not say 'chariot of horses' BUT chariot of donkey OR Camals. once again IT IS NOT chariot of horses.
You gave references to Daniel chapter 7....? It is about Constantine. He is the 11th horn in it. No imagination is required for that. The son of man in that chapter once again IS NOT Jesus but Muhammed (Allah bless them both).
I still have not received a single reference of Jesus (peace be upon him) and 10000 saints (or followers) from the bible NOR a camal riding prophet after Isaiah's vision.
From KEN [quote] No known prophet has ridden a Camel, other then Mohammad? Sorry, What is seen as the Wise men, coming to Jerusalem, were on Camels, and they knew to ask “Where is He who is born King of the Jews?”
Cute order: Our beliefs, Our good work, Our repentance, and last of all, You put the “Mercy of Allah.” Put the Mercy of Allah first, and eliminate the THREE OURS[quote]
You think i would not check the source...? please show me in the bible that the 3 wise men were on the Camel...... verse reference number !.
The other quote with regard to my sequence... which made me think about the first topic. SEQUENCE. The watchman is first to look for a rider on donkey THEN the rider on Camel. The rider on donkey being Jesus (peace be upon him) further proofs that the rider on camal can not be anyone before him. Thank you , that further confirms my interpretation.
About the point 'Mercy of Allah', our good deeds etc... i think we can start a new topic on it. It something i wanted to disucss with christians here but never got a chance. If you would like you can start a new topic on it. ___________________________________________
The 4 gospels are about Jesus (peace be upon him). You can include the entire NT for your sake and that is the only information available about jesus (Peace be upon him). As per my understanding.
On the other hand unlike the 4 Gospels, Quran is not about Muhammed (Peace be upon him) and more importantly that is not the only souce of information about him.
You can look into 'muslim conquest of Mecca' and 'Muhammed immigration to Medina' on google. When Muhammed (& muslims) fled to Medina, Muhammed entered the city on a camal. Everyone wanted to host the holy prophet, so his decision was whereever his camel stops, he will reside there. That is place where 'Masjid Al Nabwi' is today. The second holiest mosque for muslims and is where he is burried. _____________________________________
You explaination about the Tribe of Judah and Jesus (Peace be upon him with reference to Genesis 49 - 10 falls short as the verse talks about coming of someone and not going of someone. If people did not believe in him, that he got no authority! The only answer you can give is that it will happen.... even though his links with the tribe of Judah simply cannot be eliminated. ______________________________ My answer has gone too long (i think). Isaiah is filled about references to Muhammed (peace be upon him). **************************************************************** 05-09-07, 10:57 PM Ken1Burton Bik74
I think we have both been on this one point too long, Start a thread on the Mercy of Allah if you wish. Or anyone else can. I would rather cover a Concept on what Jesus fulfilled. I might address a post on the Mercy of Allah, I do check the new topics from time to time.
God bless your searching and sharing.
Ken
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