OK, Ken, here's one for both you and tsaeb: If a person tells a lie, not knowing it's a lie, is he a liar?

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God showed that Jesus did not see everything:

Well, this is where the Gospels stumble all over each over. Between "Only the Father knows" and "I and the Father are one" you have a lot of reconciling. But I think I've heard all the rationalizations. btw, your use of Isaiah is anachronistic.

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Originally posted by juanruiz:

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there are so many liars out there (and in here

To be sure, Christianity has its share of liars, many of them televangelists whose mission is to separate people from their money. But, I find it difficult to apply the word to people of conflicting theological opinion. Are Ken and Phil liars? Or earlier posters here: Mike, VV, Bibleman, DD, Aire? It seems to me they all sincerely hold to certain beliefs, just not the same beliefs. Seems to me lying is the purposeful telling of what one knows to be untruths. What if they aren't perceived as untruths?

Well I have stated rule with regard to many people and their faith. That is the book has to agree with you and not the other way...! We can see the prime examples here.

Here is another view of mine that I think is universally true about all christians. In order to be devout christian or believe what ever truth you have found, you need to have 2 characteristics.

a) be delusional/ see things/ have a special understanding
b) be in a state of denial to reject what is written

the same can be said for many muslims, atheists and others.

Call it sincere belief, call it ignorance, rigidity or rebellious person?

Juanruiz.

The person is a Liar. Every person that speaks of things, should be able to accept this of themselves. Kind of a rational reality. That is the way it is.

It is also a way of life to accept this in others also. They may not know the Truth of a matter, Or even have the questions in the right context.

When Jesus spoke of being One with the Father, We also enter into that One, That they may be One as We are One. So the ONE is as a Marriage. Jesus also said that God is a Spirit, and that a Spirit has not flesh and blood, and Jesus does have this.

God swore in His Holiness to raise up David’s physical child as the Messiah. Not to come down Himself in a different form.

There is no need to reconcile, Just take the Scriptures Jesus spoke of and search out what God did, And verify what the Disciples said happened.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

It is the Old Testament prophecies which is the Testimony of Jesus Christ. Christianity did not search the Scriptures Jesus spoke of.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Don’t even consider the seventy weeks, Just see this as God saying it will be fulfilled, and that is for the day of the Cross, So take all the New Testament which says different, and see that is lies, making and end of sins is an Absolute, Bringing in everlasting righteousness is an absolute, and it was fulfilled the day of the Cross, also an absolute.

Take from Genesis 1:1 to the end of the book of Revelation, it looks to the day of the Cross, when all is fulfilled. There is Filler, But the Concept God is showing is the day of the Cross.


Bik74.

Let’s see what you are saying? In order to be a devout Christian “OR BELIEVE WHAT EVER TRUTH YOU HAVE FOUND”, You need to have 2 characteristics.

You do believe the truth that you have found, Do you not Bik74? So the 2 characteristics have to apply to you also.

B is kind of cute, To be in a state of denial to reject what is written.

Who does not reject some of the things written? Many religions, many so called Holy books, You want to accept them all? And many contradict the others on some points.

Ken

Gentlemen, please refrain calling people names, both individually and collectively.

juanruiz: Although I was playing the devil's advocate with you, it is true that when one unknowingly lies (unintentionally makes a mistake), one is still lying and being a liar.

One is not encouraged to be human and make a mistake as to the truth of a matter: one is obligated by God to be guided by the Spirit of Truth. The Bible is strict, not liberal.

When one makes a mistake as to the truth of a matter, one's overwhelming lie is that one is taking the place of the sovereign God much as a "son" of the father of lies (Satan), which sin one must not commit. Such a one, possessed of an unclean spirit, is a liar . . . also a fool.

It is written that He hath concluded them all in unbelief. God has all truth, and we, being human, have but some of it, lacking all wisdom and knowledge.

When a prophet lies, he is a false prophet, because he did not get his statement from God, but from his own imagination.

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When a prophet lies, he is a false prophet, because he did not get his statement from God, but from his own imagination.

Well, as I said, there have been plenty of false prophets then, including Jesus and the author of Revelation. Or, they can take the safe route and hope that the events revealed happen long after their death.

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Originally posted by Ken1Burton:
You do believe the truth that you have found, Do you not Bik74? So the 2 characteristics have to apply to you also.

The guilt of some people makes them react so quickly .