This is probably a stupid question..please excuse my lack of religious knowledge but if Christ died for our sins so we could go to heaven what happened to the people who died before that happened?

If you desire to know the answer to that question I would suggest that you read John 14:6 in the new Testament (KJV). That is what was crucified 2000 years ago. Then look for all that he (Revelations 19:13) said he was. It may change the way you think about it all. Further if you read Isaiah 53 you may find it's about you.

No question is stupid. Knowledge begins with questions. In ones mind the fact that there is a question about what others are saying it may well be that your inner person is wanting you to seek answers. Amos 5:14 KJV

The first says that nobody shall get to the Father except through Christ
The second speaks of a vestment dipped in blood
The third is interpreted as foretelling the coming of Christ

Now, Phil which, if any, of these answers the question ? Before Christ arrived on Earth how did people get to the Father,and so get to Heaven? According to Christ they could only do so through Christ.

I tell you, verily, it's no wonder the Church has made such a good living and been so powerful over the centuries.

quote:

The first says that nobody shall get to the Father except through Christ
The second speaks of a vestment dipped in blood
The third is interpreted as foretelling the coming of Christ

Now, Phil which, if any, of these answers the question ? Before Christ arrived on Earth how did people get to the Father,and so get to Heaven? According to Christ they could only do so through Christ.

I tell you, verily, it's no wonder the Church has made such a good living and been so powerful over the centuries.

The first is As stated in Revelations 19:13 . the answer is; Through Christ is actually through the Word.

Blood is life Leviticus 17:14

The third is as in 1 John 4:3 And take note of the statement (IS COME).

Revelation 2:17 the new name written is the word of God. Got it?

Luke 17:20-21 KJV. Know thy self.

Sorry, Phil I haven't 'got it'. Please explain it in plain English. What's the answer to the question?
Do you know, I've had Nobel Prize winners explain esoteric bits of physics in terms I could understand.
You are being asked a simple question. They did not answer by referring me to texts which did not give the answer in comprehensible terms, or at all. They could put it all in plain language.
If it is not simple but impossible to answer then please say so.

quote:

If it is not simple but impossible to answer then please say so.

Deut:30:20 God is your life and the length of your days, like the one you are living right now.

Deut 32:47 in is not a vain thing for you for it is your life.

John 14:6 No man comes unto the father but by me. And there you have it, only through the word. As for Revelations 2:17 No man can know it unless he has received it. No man can know the word of God unless he has received it. Any more questions Fred?

Hi Kitty,

I agree with phil, there are no stupid questions. As to yours, this has occupied Christianity for some time. Aquinas spent some time on it in regard to Aristotle, concluding that had he known Christianity, he would have accepted it. It is the whole basis of Mormonism's baptism for the dead. The consensus is that the souls of the pre-Jesus departed are given the opportunity to accept him. Same is true for those today who do not know of Christianity. But, it is not something discussed much currently.

Thank you for the info...much appreciated.

Before Jesus:

If one reads Ezekiel 18:21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Therefore nothing has changed.

In the New Testament it is written that God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead. And again in different words; The sting of death is sin. And I must say it is not the other way around as some would like you to believe.

If Christ died for our sins, why are we born sinners, destined for Hell right out of the gate?

quote:

Originally posted by GarColga:
If Christ died for our sins, why are we born sinners, destined for Hell right out of the gate?

There is not a child born that is born a sinner.
It's a result of peer pressure.

Kittypal.

Those before Jesus or those already dead when Jesus died also hear His words.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Don’t get too worried about that resurrection of Damnation. That is a personal damnation in that you have to live with how you were on earth. That is why those who are forgiven more, loveth more.

All the Dead rose with Christ. Notice that in Hosea 6:3 they do not yet know the Lord, so they are not believers: They will get to know Christ.

Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

The 1,000 year reign of Christ is the day of the Cross, the rest of the dead live not again till the 1,000 years is over, Which is the Second day.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Notice that all the dead are raised or cast out of the earth: a prophecy which had to be fulfilled to the Jot and tittle, No matter what the Disciples thought happened.

Isaiah 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

This is seeing the same thing, the dead being raised with Jesus, this shows they are covered by His Righteousness, That is why all our righteousness is as filthy rags, We all have His.

Daniel 9:24 shows He makes and end of sins, and brings in everlasting righteousness, It has a seal that the Disciple, Paul an Even Jesus Himself (sealed by the Father) did not see sin ended as Accountable to mankind.

Daniel’s 70 weeks is a diversion, forget them, all prophecies had to be fulfilled the day of the Cross, Daniel also had a vision of the Evening and Morning which is for many days, in this case, it is as one day seen as 70 weeks, as a day seen as 1,000 years, etc. When all prophecies are fulfilled.

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Jesus just needs to drink of the Fruit of the Vine new with them in the Father’s Kingdom which has now come, The VINEgar is also the fruit of the Vine, and allow Himself to die.

29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Every prophecy is fulfilled. And the Book of Revelation is looking at the day of the Cross as three pictures, one as 4 6-hour periods seen as 4 beasts with 6-wings, one as 2 12-hour periods seen as 2 witnesses, one as 1 24-hour period seen as 24 Elders, God doubles twice to establish His words as Truth, So the day as 3 pictures establishes the Words of God or all the Prophecies as Truth.

Genesis 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

Hell was just a place of sleep till Jesus died for sins, then a waiting place till the third day when they rise with Christ, Even those in hell (pit wherein is no water are seen raised with Jesus.

Zechariah 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;

The Second picture seeing the day as 2 12-hour periods is looking at Jesus in hell, or DOUBLE is rendered to them. God’s word is like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29. So hell being part of God’s word is as fire. Heaven is also part of God’s word, so even that can be seen as Everlasting fire.

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Dwelling with Jesus, Jesus renders to man His righteousness seen in Job 33:26.

So by grace are we saved, through Faith and that not of ourselves, Jesus gave us His. It is a GIFT of God, and the Gifts and callings of God are WITHOUT REPENTANCE. And we do not have to accept it, Jesus comes as the Rain, and like it or not, God pours out the RAIN upon the Just and unjust alike.


Garcolga.

No one is a born sinner, Original sin is not Scriptural Truth:

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

This verse also shows Jesus had to take our sins as being His own, and die for them as His doing them, So sin as accounted for mankind ended at Golgotha, Past and present sin ended “With His stripes we are healed, then Jesus took FUTURE sins to Golgotha, or while we were yet sinner, or would still sin again, Christ died for us.

Where Scripture speaks of them going astray as soon as they issue out of the Womb, That is for the day of the Cross, the Body of Christ is born the day of the Cross with us in that Body, seen in Psalms 2:6/7, given the Heathen in 2:8.

God pours out His Spirit (Jesus) upon all flesh, so we all become an unclean thing. Or all one Body, no innocent babies, etc, all One, all guilty. So the day made as 7 days in Isaiah 30:26. Sunset to midnight is the first day, This is also the WOMB. Jesus takes sin at Midnight, we are all as dead in Christ then. So we go astray as soon as we issue out of the womb or at Midnight.

The second day is from Midnight to sunrise or the Second 6-hour period. We are all as dead in Christ, or as in hell as the Wicked it turned into hell, a similitude. Then the third day, from Sunrise to noon, “With His stripes we are healed”. Or as resurrected from the DEAD. The Second and third physical days being future similitudes for what has already been established by God as Truth.

The day made as 7 days, Seen as 3 pictures of the day as days also, So ten days total, the day as 1,000 years, or 100 years at midnight when we issue out of the womb.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Spiritually dead because we are all as one, all guilty because of sins at midnight and as 100 years old. Midnight to sunrise is the Time of Abraham, we are as in the Bosom of Abraham, Taking sin as the Horror of great darkness. Midnight to Sunrise is Outer Darkness, Disciples weeping as they flee, 144 with Judas gnashing their teeth.

Hell was a place of sleep till Jesus died for sins, Hell ceased to exist on the third day.

Ken

Wow..thanks....amazing you guys know so much about the bible and religion.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken1Burton:


Garcolga.

No one is a born sinner, Original sin is not Scriptural Truth:

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

This verse also shows Jesus had to take our sins as being His own ...
Ken

Well certainly the vast majority of Christians will disagree with you on the doctrine of Original Sin! For without Original Sin, where is the need for Jesus' supposed sacrifice?

GarColga.

Truth is what matters, Not what most Christians believe. Jesus took away the sin of the World, Past and present sins then “By His stripes we are healed.” Then He too future sins to Golgotha. Making and end of sins as Daniel 9:24 shows. One of the Many jots and tittle He had to fulfill.

The Sins were accountable sins, not from infants.

Ken

quote:

Truth is what matters, Not what most Christians believe

Problem is, it's Christians and their beliefs that established Christianity, not Jesus. From Paul, through the Greek and Latin Fathers, the councils, Luther, Calvin, et al All Christian theology traces itself back to men.

Which brings to mind once again Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Which would be after the fact so to speak which correlates with what Juan is saying. And if one continues reading and considers Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. Then on to John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

So the sum is that that word which is called truth is what is being crucified again and again by every generation.

Juanruiz

Problem is, the Problem is about to be solved. Daniel’s little Horn in Chapter seven was given so much time. Little Horn (Spouts off) is Peter, He displaced three horns or Jesus has three, Peter, James and John, Then Jesus chose ONE to replace having three with Him.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Time is creation story in 3975 B.C.(similitude) to 25 A.D. or 4,000 years
Times is the day if the Cross seen as 2,000 years. In Psalms 90:4, Ecc 6:6
Dividing or half a time is till 2029 A.D. Then Israel the Woman in Revelation Chapter 12 sees the Face of the Serpent, and they accept Jesus in Truth, Just how God has established it as Truth.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


Christianity never cared enough to dig deep, Not to really verify the Old Testament prophecies to what was done, And I do not think they stand a chance of coming themselves, But will have to come through Israel to see Jesus in Truth.

Ken

quote:

Christianity never cared enough to dig deep, Not to really verify the Old Testament prophecies to what was done, And I do not think they stand a chance of coming themselves, But will have to come through Israel to see Jesus in Truth.

Ken, I am Israel, how do you like those apples, and as you said; "I do not think" and in that alone is the problem.

Philalethist.

Your getting a little smarter. I know where catching the “I do not think” came from. I have used i with you. The thing is, You did not come back with “I do not think also means that the thoughts I have, do not include or believe in the possibility of Christianity sorting out the Scriptures in the amount of time they have left.

Also, as I have said many times, I do not need to think, I just need to relay the Messages God gives me, the way they were shown. One key is to listen to the messages yourself. Helps you to understand what is going on.

You are Israel? Jesus is Jacob from Noon to Sunset. The fourth 6-hour period, The time of the Pale Horse. Death followed by Hell as Jesus died and descended into hell.

Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jesus on the Cross as He renders to man His righteousness, dies. He returns to the days of His Youth, For Jesus is David’s dead child conceived outside wedlock, He was dead with God in His Youth, going up with God.

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

The day of the Cross as three pictures: 1=Egypt, 2=Israel, 3=Assyria. Jesus just commended His spirit to God, and God called His Son out of Egypt. As far as the story Matthew made up. He can explain that Himself, all prophecies are for the day of the Cross.


Prophecy for the one called the Good Thief (Jesus has all sin. So He was crucified between two innocent men in God’s eyes)

Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

Now Jesus or Israel is AS A CHILD, and gets called out of Egypt. Second picture is seeing Jesus in hell, or pit where in is no waters, The first picture as a river divided into four heads, the day is all the Sevens in Revelation, Lamb has seven eyes.

Let tears run down like a river is for this first picture. So God dries up all the tears from their eyes, behold He makes all things new, or the day will be seen new as 2 12-hour periods. Also seen as the Euphrates dried up in Revelation as all three pictures are showing the day in different ways. All interlocking.

Apples? You would not be the Fruit of the Loom Guy would you? If you are, better run, Emma is coming, and she still wants to make that pie.

Ken