When Paul said the Law was rendered null and void thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, which laws do you believe that refers to: the Ten Commandments? Dietary laws? Circumcision? Others? +++++++++++++ 04-26-06, 01:04 PM philalethist The Law of Liberty The old law being made void openned the way to a new type of law which comes by faith and understanding, wisdom, truth and justice with mercy. A law which comes through faith and that faith comes as in Romans 10:17 and no other way.
So it was written by the law is no man justified. it was also written the one jot or tittle of the law shall fail until all be fullfilled. Therefore it is up to those who are living to figure out the mystery of the faith and which ones have been fullfilled and which have not. What makes no difference and what makes all the difference. While people bicker over that which is small they fail that which is great. Somewhat like choking on a Gnat while swallowing a Camel. 04-26-06, 02:04 PM Insaf As per my understanding, Paul (the self appointed disciple), nullified almost all of the old laws includiing, 1) Ten commandments (e.g. by making Jesus God) 2) Dietry restrictions(e.g by allowing pork) 3) Circumcision 4) Preaching of Christianity to the Jews only.
The current christianity is not driven by teaching of Jesus Christ but by teaching of Paul. 04-26-06, 06:57 PM philalethist
quote: Originally posted by Insaf: As per my understanding, Paul (the self appointed disciple), nullified almost all of the old laws includiing, 1) Ten commandments (e.g. by making Jesus God) 2) Dietry restrictions(e.g by allowing pork) 3) Circumcision 4) Preaching of Christianity to the Jews only.
The current christianity is not driven by teaching of Jesus Christ but by teaching of Paul.
Self apointed or not really makes no difference. He seen the light. Some never see the light of truth. 1. The ten commandments: Take John 1:1 and stick it in. Go from that point and you will find that most people in the world today lack in understanding them. 2 Anybody who has believed a lie has eaten pork as far as the spirit is concerned. 3 Circumcision: some may be circumcised of the body but not of the heart. 4 I think you got this one wrong as Peter was the preacher of circumcision.
As far as the preaching of Christianity goes this in itself was the BIG Mistake. Read Acts 11 KJV. When it started the famine came on the face of the whole world. So the world has been eating PORK every sence. Amos 8:11-12 KJV 04-26-06, 09:13 PM tsaeb Jesus claimed to have come to fulfill the law. He changed the ten commandments into two commandments. 04-27-06, 09:59 AM philalethist
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb: Jesus claimed to have come to fulfill the law. He changed the ten commandments into two commandments.
In that case add Deut 30:20 to John 1:1 KJV 04-27-06, 11:25 AM tsaeb
quote: Originally posted by philalethist:
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb: Jesus claimed to have come to fulfill the law. He changed the ten commandments into two commandments.
In that case add Deut 30:20 to John 1:1 KJV
I did not hope to imply that God has stopped commanding or that it was not He (God, the Father, as the Word) who directed Jesus (the Son) by the Holy Spirit to simplify the ten commandments as two commandments. Did I miss something else? 04-27-06, 12:16 PM PhilKosba
quote: When Paul said the Law was rendered null and void thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, which laws do you believe that refers to: the Ten Commandments? Dietary laws? Circumcision? Others?
Hi, it will be fine if you may provide the Biblical reference to your question!
Thanks. Phil. 04-27-06, 04:51 PM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb: Jesus claimed to have come to fulfill the law. He changed the ten commandments into two commandments.
The first commandment as per Jesus was
Mark: 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
The concept of trinity, which was mainly started by Paul, is in clear contradiction with the first commandment. This is the biggest contradiction Paul had Jesus teaching as well as well as the teaching of the OT. 04-27-06, 06:30 PM philalethist By Insaf
quote: The concept of trinity, which was mainly started by Paul, is in clear contradiction with the first commandment. This is the biggest contradiction Paul had Jesus teaching as well as well as the teaching of the OT.
It is about three different ways of seeing what is said to be one. What don't you understand about one? 04-27-06, 10:15 PM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by philalethist:
It is about three different ways of seeing what is said to be one. What don't you understand about one?
Come one Phil, we are not talking about 3 different ways of seeing one person. We are talking about 3 different persons.
Nobody has yet proved (on the various threads posted on AP) that these are the same persons. 04-28-06, 08:23 AM philalethist 1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
The three parts are one part, and that one part is the man, the individual called self. For the cannil see differently than those of the spirit. Measuring things by mans measurements and not by the heart, thoughts and deeds. So we look to 1 Samuel 16:7 KJV and just maybe get some insite into the true nature of it all. 04-28-06, 03:11 PM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by philalethist: Measuring things by mans measurements and not by the heart, thoughts and deeds. .
So you are saying that I should not use logic but have blind faith in church made up concept of Trinity and ingore what Jesus and messangers before him Preached!!! Why cant you logically prove to me that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same things? 04-28-06, 03:19 PM juanruiz
quote: Why cant you logically prove to me that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same things?
Insaf, good buddy, it's a mystery of faith. 04-28-06, 04:05 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz:
quote: Why cant you logically prove to me that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same things?
Insaf, good buddy, it's a mystery of faith.
I guess the right statement would be 'clear proof in terms of gospel verse number _ _ _ _'.
Hey JR it was only like yesterday you were reaching ur 4,000th post and now your reaching your 5,000th post. 04-28-06, 04:52 PM juanruiz
quote: Hey JR it was only like yesterday you were reaching ur 4,000th post and now your reaching your 5,000th post.
What can I say. I don't have a life. 04-29-06, 03:07 AM PhilKosba
quote: When Paul said the Law was rendered null and void thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, which laws do you believe that refers to: the Ten Commandments? Dietary laws? Circumcision? Others?
Hello JR, could you give any Bible verse/s to base your question? 04-29-06, 12:05 PM juanruiz Galatians 3:11ff among others. Although I would stipulate his view on the Law is ambiguous. 04-29-06, 01:42 PM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by PhilKosba:
quote: When Paul said the Law was rendered null and void thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, which laws do you believe that refers to: the Ten Commandments? Dietary laws? Circumcision? Others?
Hello JR, could you give any Bible verse/s to base your question?
Here are some verses to start with,
Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 04-29-06, 01:45 PM Insaf Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree
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Posts: 7709 | Location: On Vacation | Registered: 06-06-02
When Paul said the Law was rendered null and void thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, which laws do you believe that refers to: the Ten Commandments? Dietary laws? Circumcision? Others?
Hello JR, could you give any Bible verse/s to base your question?
Posts: 50 | Location: The Planet Earth | Registered: 09-13-03
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. +++++++++++++ 04-29-06, 08:46 PM philalethist
quote: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Logic would tell you the importance of that little word "IF" And a logical man would think about it, even if just a little. 04-29-06, 08:52 PM juanruiz It's pretty tough to find logic in Paul's argumentation. 04-29-06, 09:00 PM philalethist
quote: Come one Phil, we are not talking about 3 different ways of seeing one person. We are talking about 3 different persons.
Who says we are (or I am ) talking about a person. It is written that God is a spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. John 10:30 States "I and my father are one", John 6:63 indicates the spirit is in the word. John 1:1 states the word is God. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus (Rev 19:13) the same yesterday, today and forever. So if he was the word in the beginning what is the savior now? Nomatter how the story goes the final conclusion must be the same. 04-30-06, 02:17 PM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by philalethist: Who says we are (or I am ) talking about a person. It is written that God is a spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. .
The problem is that Jesus was a separate identifiable person. For the concept of trinity,salvation via crucifixion etc to work, Jesus has to be God. Can you tell me a single verse in the bible where Jesus said that he was God Or that he and God are equal. 04-30-06, 02:21 PM juanruiz
quote: Can you tell me a single verse in the bible where Jesus said that he was God Or that he and God are equal.
Too easy, Insaf. 04-30-06, 02:44 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by philalethist:
Who says we are (or I am ) talking about a person. It is written that God is a spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. John 10:30 States "I and my father are one", John 6:63 indicates the spirit is in the word. John 1:1 states the word is God. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus (Rev 19:13) the same yesterday, today and forever. So if he was the word in the beginning what is the savior now? Nomatter how the story goes the final conclusion must be the same.
with regard to JOHN10:30 no need to explain it, because Christ (peace be upon him) explained it himself. (NO NEED to jump to other chapters).
29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: bik74, 04-30-06 04:44 PM 04-30-06, 05:02 PM philalethist Bik74
quote: with regard to JOHN10:30 no need to explain it, because Christ (peace be upon him) explained it himself. (NO NEED to jump to other chapters).
Sure enough but I find that man can not live by bread alone but by every word. So whats the problem if I say the very same thing? And I can back it up from the scriptures also as everybody should be able to do, but then what can I do if they by their own free will choose to read a different book or books. Romans 8:14, John 14:20-21 KJV 05-01-06, 07:58 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by philalethist:
So whats the problem if I say the very same thing?
No problem. I think its just easier to understand sticking with the same chapter. 05-01-06, 09:46 PM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz:
quote: Can you tell me a single verse in the bible where Jesus said that he was God Or that he and God are equal.
Too easy, Insaf.
Seems easy on the face, but there is no place in the bible where Jesus has unequivocaly said that he is God or worship him or he is equal to God. The closest one was John 1 5:7 which has been uncermoniously removed from the revised versions of the bible as it was not present in the most ancient versions of the bible discovered in the last 50-60 years.
On the other hand there are several places where Jesus has said that God is greater than him....that he on is own can not do anything etc. 05-02-06, 07:57 AM philalethist
quote: Originally posted by Insaf:
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz:
quote: Can you tell me a single verse in the bible where Jesus said that he was God Or that he and God are equal.
Too easy, Insaf.
Seems easy on the face, but there is no place in the bible where Jesus has unequivocaly said that he is God or worship him or he is equal to God. The closest one was John 1 5:7 which has been uncermoniously removed from the revised versions of the bible as it was not present in the most ancient versions of the bible discovered in the last 50-60 years.
On the other hand there are several places where Jesus has said that God is greater than him....that he on is own can not do anything etc.
1 John 5:7 Seems to be troubling to some people. So it was dropped. Maybe the reason it was dropped was due to the fact that it does not say Jesus is in Heaven. Some people also find the light of truth offensive. Personaly I find 1 John 5:7 understandable but to those who do not understand it it would bother me not if they dropped it completely even in their posts. It seems to be a big deal to some but I find it an even bigger deal the fact that they don't know who God is yet prophess to know it all. 05-02-06, 11:51 AM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by philalethist: 1 John 5:7 Seems to be troubling to some people. So it was dropped. Maybe the reason it was dropped was due to the fact that it does not say Jesus is in Heaven.
I dont think it was dropped because it was troubling people. There are numerous things in the bible that disturb people and which puts into doubt the authencity of the bible as 100% word of God.
The reason, which I deduced from the preface of RSV, was that, this line was inserted somewhere after the 16th century and was later on removed when more ancient Gospels were unearthed. Those ancient versions did not have this line, which is a clear proof that someone must have inserted it probably to support church view. In earlier times, bible was mainly the property of Church and the church people of those times seems to have taken advantage of that fact. 05-04-06, 10:24 AM bik74
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: When Paul said the Law was rendered null and void thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, which laws do you believe that refers to: the Ten Commandments? Dietary laws? Circumcision? Others?
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: When Paul said the Law was rendered null and void thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, which laws do you believe that refers to: the Ten Commandments? Dietary laws? Circumcision? Others?
Since Christ said that he came to fullfill the law not abolish it would hold that all laws are still in effect.
But Paul interpreted Christ's fulling of the law as completing the laws, thus through salvation alone all laws are met - or if you prefer Through Salvation we are exempt from the laws. Therefore none of the laws apply to us anymore.
In Jewish beliefs (as it was explained to me) The law applies to Jews only, Gentiles are exempt from the law. As a gentile I assume I am lawless Wink 05-06-06, 03:26 PM tsaeb It is wise to distinguish between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, because Jesus warned about lawlessness in our time. When not abolishing the latter (the spirit of the law), we have to acknowledge Jesus' two great commandments and understand them with the concept of grace.
It is grace, not salvation, which makes anyone who does not want to be bound by the letter of the law (usually a Christian, but anyone) free of the letter of the law. It is by grace through faith that we are saved.
One of the things from which we are saved is the condemnation of the law, which is why those bound by the law are headed for the wages of sin as death, while the gift of God through grace by faith is eternal life. Another thing from which we are (supposed to be) saved is the letter of the law, whose operation manifests as unnecessary rituals and misinterpretations of scriptures. 05-07-06, 03:43 PM doñadiana
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: When Paul said the Law was rendered null and void thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, which laws do you believe that refers to: the Ten Commandments? Dietary laws? Circumcision? Others?
Paul didn't say that the Law was rendered null and void, but that it could not be used to condemn the believer because Christ kept the Law perfectly and therefore His righteousness is applied to the believing sinner. The debt owed to God because of breaking the Law has been written off as paid.
We are still obliged to keep the the moral Law because God requires it just as the a country has the right to expect that it's citizens (as well as legal and illegal aliens) obey it's laws even though this does not affect their status as citizens.
Circumcision was the covenant sign of the Old Covenant. A new Covenant sign, baptism, was established for the New Covenant. With circumcision the head of the household was saying that he and his household would obey the Law and make the necessary ritual sacrifices in order to satisfy any law-breaking which was sure to happen even if unintentional. In baptism we are saying that yes, we will submit outselves to God's authority and Law, but since it is still impossible to keep the Law, Christ's righteousness is applied to our account and His sacrifice takes the place of all the O.T. sacrifices and we are not cut off as would have happened in the O.T. if sacrifices were not continually made.
Dietary law: A lot of imagery there. Not everyone agrees on how that is to be applied in N.T. times. I imagine that it kept the Israelites healthy in a time when not much was known about germ, sanitation, etc. Certainly nothing is lost by keeping O.T. dietary laws.
It is difficult to adequately sumarize in a small space, something that it takes the whole books of the Bible to explain thoroughly. 05-07-06, 04:38 PM Scotty
quote: Seems easy on the face, but there is no place in the bible where Jesus has unequivocaly said that he is God or worship him or he is equal to God.
Insaf
quote:
Jesus prepares his disciples for his soon departure by promising that he will return and that he and the Father are one (14:1-14).
"Don't worry about my leaving you. I know you trust in God; so put your trust in me as well.
"There is plenty of room for everyone in my Father's house. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
"And once that place is ready, you may be sure that I will come back and take you to be with me. That way, we will always be together. You know the way to the place where I am going."
Mount of Olives, where some feel Jesus will return
Somewhat confused, Thomas said, "Lord, we aren't sure where you are going, so how can we know the way that will take us there?"
"I am the way" declared Jesus. "I am the truth; I am the life. No one can get to the Father without going through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and you have seen him."
Philip said, "Lord, please show us the Father, and then we will be satisfied."
Jesus replied, "Philip, we've been together for a long time. Don't you know by now who I really am?
"To see me is to see the Father! So how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I and the Father are one? I do not speak to you on my own authority.
"The Father who lives in me is the one who carries out the miraculous deeds you see.
"Believe me when I say that I and the Father are one. Or believe it to be true on the basis of the miracles you see me do.
"I tell you the truth, if you believe in me you will do the same things that I am doing. In fact, you will do even greater things, because I am going away to the Father.
"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it."
05-07-06, 09:06 PM philalethist "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it."
So what name are poeple using to ask in. It is not Jesus! Revelations 19:13. Based upon this one fact The Jesus thumpers got it all wrong and should go back to square one and start over. I am the way, The truth, and the life. No man comes onto the father but by me. So if you follow the wrong way you never make the grade.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Why so? because they are using the wrong name and don't have a hint about what it is truely all about. 1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him. So stop this Jesus stuff and get with the program and maybe you will find the real way, the truth and the life. Then and then only will you learn who the father really is. For indeed the way is the word and Nothing else....... 05-07-06, 11:44 PM newnickname
quote: For indeed the way is the word and Nothing else.......
Actually, according to Revelations 19, the way is several other things:
'11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.'
Taking just verse 13 out of that lot and saying it helps show that Jesus was the word "and nothing else" is silly.
As I've said before, the idea that there was no historical figure, Jesus, but a message, is interesting. But, Phil, your attempts to support this with selective quotes does not advance the idea; it detracts from it.
I wonder if you've heard of Docetism:
'Docetism could be further explained as the view that, because the human body is temporary and the spirit is eternal, the body of Jesus therefore must have been an illusion and his crucifixion as well. It could be compared to how a Buddhist speaks about illusion: illusion is everything that is temporary, not everything that is not real.' 05-08-06, 12:18 AM newnickname Going back to the original question, wikipedia also has an entry on Marcionism:
'The premise of Marcionism is that many of the teachings of Christ (not Jesus — Marcion treated Jesus as being distinct from Christ) are incompatible with the god of the Jewish religion. "Completely carried away with the novelty, uniqueness and grandeur of the Pauline Gospel of the grace of God in Christ, Marcion felt that all other conceptions of the Gospel, and especially its union with the Old Testament religion, was opposed to, and a backsliding from, the truth. He accordingly supposed that it was necessary to make the sharp antitheses of Paul, law and gospel, wrath and grace, works and faith, flesh and spirit, sin and righteousness, death and life, that is the Pauline criticism of the Old Testament religion, the foundation of his religious views, and to refer them to two principles, the righteous and wrathful god of the Old Testament, who is at the same time identical with the creator of the world, and the God of the Gospel, quite unknown before Christ, who is only love and mercy."'
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
For indeed the way is the word and Nothing else.......
Actually, according to Revelations 19, the way is several other things:
'11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.'
Taking just verse 13 out of that lot and saying it helps show that Jesus was the word "and nothing else" is silly.
As I've said before, the idea that there was no historical figure, Jesus, but a message, is interesting. But, Phil, your attempts to support this with selective quotes does not advance the idea; it detracts from it.
'Docetism could be further explained as the view that, because the human body is temporary and the spirit is eternal, the body of Jesus therefore must have been an illusion and his crucifixion as well. It could be compared to how a Buddhist speaks about illusion: illusion is everything that is temporary, not everything that is not real.'
Going back to the original question, wikipedia also has an entry on Marcionism:
'The premise of Marcionism is that many of the teachings of Christ (not Jesus — Marcion treated Jesus as being distinct from Christ) are incompatible with the god of the Jewish religion. "Completely carried away with the novelty, uniqueness and grandeur of the Pauline Gospel of the grace of God in Christ, Marcion felt that all other conceptions of the Gospel, and especially its union with the Old Testament religion, was opposed to, and a backsliding from, the truth. He accordingly supposed that it was necessary to make the sharp antitheses of Paul, law and gospel, wrath and grace, works and faith, flesh and spirit, sin and righteousness, death and life, that is the Pauline criticism of the Old Testament religion, the foundation of his religious views, and to refer them to two principles, the righteous and wrathful god of the Old Testament, who is at the same time identical with the creator of the world, and the God of the Gospel, quite unknown before Christ, who is only love and mercy."'
Originally posted by Insaf: Come one Phil, we are not talking about 3 different ways of seeing one person. We are talking about 3 different persons.
Nobody has yet proved (on the various threads posted on AP) that these are the same persons.
The reason no one has proved these are the same persons is that the Father, Son, and Spirit are not the same person. The Father is distinct from the Son, and distinct from the Spirit, and the Son and Spirit are distinct from one another.
The distinction in persons comes from divine relations based on procession (the Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son). +++++++++++++++ 05-08-06, 08:50 AM philalethist
quote: Originally posted by newnickname:
quote: For indeed the way is the word and Nothing else.......
Actually, according to Revelations 19, the way is several other things:
'11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.'
Taking just verse 13 out of that lot and saying it helps show that Jesus was the word "and nothing else" is silly.
As I've said before, the idea that there was no historical figure, Jesus, but a message, is interesting. But, Phil, your attempts to support this with selective quotes does not advance the idea; it detracts from it.
I wonder if you've heard of Docetism:
'Docetism could be further explained as the view that, because the human body is temporary and the spirit is eternal, the body of Jesus therefore must have been an illusion and his crucifixion as well. It could be compared to how a Buddhist speaks about illusion: illusion is everything that is temporary, not everything that is not real.'
Try this on for size. Rev 2:17 KJV He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
I guess there be a lot out there that have not overcome. NNN it's a simple matter, as simple as Put hither thy finger and behold my hands But those who don't do the Word, never overcome that they may be able to know the difference between what makes a difference and what makes no difference. As Paul was told, it will be hard for thee to kick against the pricks. get kicking 05-08-06, 06:08 PM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by Diarmait:
The reason no one has proved these are the same persons is that the Father, Son, and Spirit are not the same person. The Father is distinct from the Son, and distinct from the Spirit, and the Son and Spirit are distinct from one another.
The distinction in persons comes from divine relations based on procession (the Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son).
So they 3 differnt persons and not one. Can be one in purpose but not one as a person. They differed in many things like power, wisdom etc. 05-08-06, 06:24 PM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by Scotty:
See my reply in blue
quote: Seems easy on the face, but there is no place in the bible where Jesus has unequivocaly said that he is God or worship him or he is equal to God.
Insaf
quote:
Jesus prepares his disciples for his soon departure by promising that he will return and that he and the Father are one (14:1-14). One in what? Purpose or as a person? Read the context. People have debtaed on statement like these therefore I have requested for an unequivocal statement, where Jesus said that he is God.
"Don't worry about my leaving you. I know you trust in God; so put your trust in me as well.
"There is plenty of room for everyone in my Father's house. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
"And once that place is ready, you may be sure that I will come back and take you to be with me. That way, we will always be together. You know the way to the place where I am going."
Mount of Olives, where some feel Jesus will return
Somewhat confused, Thomas said, "Lord, we aren't sure where you are going, so how can we know the way that will take us there?"
"I am the way" declared Jesus. "I am the truth; I am the life. No one can get to the Father without going through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and you have seen him."
Every messanger is the way to God in his time. If you donot follow the messanger you will not follow God. Jesus meant people to follow him, Not worship him.
Philip said, "Lord, please show us the Father, and then we will be satisfied."
Jesus replied, "Philip, we've been together for a long time. Don't you know by now who I really am?
"To see me is to see the Father! So how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I and the Father are one? I do not speak to you on my own authority.
"The Father who lives in me is the one who carries out the miraculous deeds you see.
Yes, the presence of the prophet is evidence that there is the father. Prophets like Jesus performed miracles to make people believe that there is God, who has given them this power so that the people can believe in God. Did the prophets say that they can do these things on their own? No!
"Believe me when I say that I and the Father are one. Or believe it to be true on the basis of the miracles you see me do.
"I tell you the truth, if you believe in me you will do the same things that I am doing. In fact, you will do even greater things, because I am going away to the Father.
"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it."
So far you have not produced a single UNEQUIVOCAL statement from JESUS in the BIBLE where he says that "HE IS GOD" or "WORSHIP ME".
05-14-06, 12:10 AM philalethist You will only understand when the voice of your own life and the truth of life become one. Maybe you have been listening to to much biodegradeable stuff instead of rightly dividing the word of truth. Maybe reading the wrong book. One has to clean up his or her own act before they can clearly see what truth is really all about. 05-14-06, 09:34 AM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by philalethist: Maybe you have been listening to to much biodegradeable stuff instead of rightly dividing the word of truth. Maybe reading the wrong book.
I read and write pharases like,
God said, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" "My father is greater than I" "My father is greater than All"
I am quoting these from the bible. I dont know why are you thinking that I am using the wrong book. 05-14-06, 11:44 AM Scotty
quote: "Believe me when I say that I and the Father are one
What does this say to you? It says to me the he is Lord. I don't know how you translate it.
quote: If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and you have seen him.
This also states that he is Lord.
quote: "To see me is to see the Father! So how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I and the Father are one
Pretty clear to me. 05-14-06, 01:28 PM Insaf
quote: "I and my Father are one John 10:30
If you read the context, you will understand. For your ease I am pasting the context,
10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 10:30 I and my Father are one.
See the bold items....what does being one means? One in power, wisdom ???? No. ONE IN PURPOSE.
However,you may insist that it literally means one in person. Then read,
Jesus is speaking to his 12 disciples, John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Here the same ONE is used. Does it means that you have 14 Gods??? No. You should read the verses in the context.
Anyways, to give you even more clarification on John 10:30, let continue,
10:30 I and my Father are one. 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
So here Jesus clarifies that he is claiming himself as a god (with a small g) not God (with capital G). There are places in the bible like Psalms 82:6 "Ye are gods", it doesnt mean that they are Gods (with a capital G).
(Just for information in greek, there are 2 types of gods, Hotheos means 'God'(with capital G) and Tontheos means 'a god'(small G) i.e. a godly person.) .
And why cant you simply point to a statement where Jesus says "I am God" or "Worship me". I want an unequivocal statement.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Insaf, 05-14-06 10:14 PM 05-14-06, 07:14 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Insaf:
10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Reading and concluding on a statement out of context ! Well then if we read the above verse out of context... we will conclude 'all jews are God'.
Christ (peace be upon him) was very clear as to what he meant .... he was godly (of God) i.e. representing the mission of God. I honestly cannot understand why the above chpater can be taken by anyone that Christ (peace be upon him) implied that he was 'THE GOD'. Once again he is explaining the verse himself. 05-14-06, 08:21 PM philalethist
quote: Originally posted by Insaf:
quote: Originally posted by philalethist: Maybe you have been listening to to much biodegradeable stuff instead of rightly dividing the word of truth. Maybe reading the wrong book.
I read and write pharases like,
God said, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" "My father is greater than I" "My father is greater than All"
I am quoting these from the bible. I dont know why are you thinking that I am using the wrong book.
The book you are reading reads somewhat different when you have eatten the Hidden manna. One not only must eat the word as did Jeremiah 15:16, And Ezekiel 3:1, and John Rev 10:9-10, but must also digest it within their minds. So all the verses that were quoted above are different than what is written when you understand them as in having eatten the hidden Manna. Rev 2:17. 05-14-06, 09:13 PM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by philalethist: The book you are reading reads somewhat different when you have eatten the Hidden manna.
I do not know what you mean by manna. Manna was the special food given by God to the childern of Israel. 05-14-06, 09:51 PM Scotty REF 1
Most mainstream biblical scholars, and even some conservative scholars, agree that of the 13 letters attributed to Paul, only 7 are undisputed, and those 7 all contain later interpolations!
Isn't anyone shocked that some of the writers whose scrolls were discovered at Nag Hammadi held Paul up as a Gnostic teacher?
A little tweaking in the translations of his epistles gives his writings a completely different meaning than that is understood by modern Christians. Our understanding of Paul seems to be based on centuries of improper or imperfect translations! 05-14-06, 11:16 PM tsaeb
quote: Originally posted by Insaf: I and my Father are one. See the bold items....what does being one means? One in power, wisdom ???? No. ONE IN PURPOSE.
And why cant you simply point to a statement where Jesus says "I am God" or "Worship me". I want an unequivocal statement.
When I prophesy, God and Jesus are each/both represented by a line, which is the number "|." In how many years from now do you think that this interpretation will be accepted?
The easiest reason to digest why Jesus could not proclaim equality with God by declaring himself to be God is that the first commandment with God the Father speaking disallows anyone from having other gods before God the Father. In short, Jesus was not vain and rebellious but humble and obedient.
Beyond your assertion that you are a Muslim, I appreciate your mode of questioning and find that you are trying to piece together truth without bias. In this respect, you are avant garde in that individuals still prefer darkness (ignorance). 05-14-06, 11:44 PM GarColga
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb:
When I prophesy, God and Jesus are each/both represented by a line, which is the number "|." In how many years from now do you think that this interpretation will be accepted?
LOL! tsaeb, get over yourself!!
What interpretation? Accepted by who?
I prophesy that only the lonely miserable souls that buy your sad "books" will ever give you and your claims to be a prophetess any attention at all. 05-15-06, 12:00 AM tsaeb GarColga: It is a funny thing that I cannot off-hand think of any "lonely miserable souls" who have bought any of my books. Indeed, they are books and so the word "books" does not require quotation marks. They are also accurate and uplifting, not sad. Had I not been working for years on another project according to God's will, which project is now coming to a head, I would have already caused quite a stir, having then had more free time to advance my prophetic views. I am happy that you are a false prophet (mocker actually), and I was posting to Insaf anyway. P.S. My question was meant to be facetious! Razz 05-15-06, 06:47 AM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb: The easiest reason to digest why Jesus could not proclaim equality with God by declaring himself to be God is that the first commandment with God the Father speaking disallows anyone from having other gods before God the Father.
I agree with the above statement of yours. Regarding your prophesy, I can understand that following Jesus or in that matter following any prophet, was the same as following God. Prophets were ideal people. They were ideal humans, who other humans should follow. But considering them as God or worshiping them will be in clear contradiction to the teaching of the prophets. Denying their teaching is similar to deny them.
In this respect, my religion says that "Do not go to the extremes in relgion". What are the extremes? One group of people (Jews) consider him as an imposter (False Prophet) and the Other group (Christian) consider him as God.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Insaf, 05-15-06 09:41 AM 05-15-06, 12:01 PM philalethist
quote: Originally posted by Insaf:
I do not know what you mean by manna. Manna was the special food given by God to the childern of Israel.
The hidden Manna is the real message of the word, contained within the word, which can not be covered up nomatter how hard mankind tries. When one overcomes and kicks against all the pricks, which are all the misconceptions that others have put in your minds as with a hot iron. When one knows what the real truth is they also know what a lie is because it does not follow nor fall into the pattern. 05-15-06, 01:58 PM babthrower
quote: Originally posted by Insaf: Why cant you logically prove to me that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same things?
All religions are the outgrowth of some earlier one, going back in time to one source religion, now unknown and unknowable.
The teachings change as kings change, as the priesthood changes and/or when prophecies fail. During one kingship, the priests tell the people the gods have put him in power over them. But if he is defeated, and he and his entire family killed, they must explain that, so a new theory is introduced, and in time it becomes part of the religion.
(Notice that the religion is most powerful, and indeed can only survive any great length of time, if there is an alliance between the priests and the ruling class. The rulers and the priests are in a symbiotic relationship. The priests justify the kings and keep the people faithful, and the kings let the priests skim a little of the produce of the people which otherwise would go to the king, and he also protects them and their property.)
Judaism grew out of a previous Babylon religion, keeping some myths and stories, but introducing a new god, Jehovah, who was a special tribal god of the Jews alone.
Jehovah demanded the Jews stop worshipping the other gods. Later this was interpeted to mean that the other gods were imaginary and only Jehovah was real.
So the teachings become more complex.
This is a paradigm of all religions. Some sharp-eyed students spot some contradiction, such as a statement saying that the line of the old king will rule forever. But that line disappeared when the old king died, perhaps centuries before.
So the priests and theologians must explain the contradiction, or lose their following and their income.
Some possible explanations: 1. the old king had a secret sin so the gods destroyed him. (ShrpEyes questions: But didn't the gods foresee that when they promised him his line would never die?) 2. the old king still lives, but in a spirit land where he rules a spirit people; so now a new earthly line thrives. (SharpEyes questions: But the old prophecy never specified an earthy vs. a spiritual kingdom.)
Pretty soon SharpEyes gets a warning from the High Priest: Don't presume to know more than the line of wise men going before you; shut up or we'll shut you up.
Sharpeyes either obeys, and becomes a priest himself, teaching the old line but never questioning it, and getting a new name: WeakEyes; or he disobeys, continues to question, and either (a) is killed by the priests on the king's orders, , or (b) goes into hiding and starts a new religion in which the old doctrine of the king has been omitted or re-interpreted. That new religion either (a) survives or (b) is wiped out by the forces of the old religion, or dies out from lack of followers. If it survives, SharpEyes takes new name: MyWay.
The only place where SharpEyes survives in his/her original iconoclastic form is in the secular state, where the priests have no power to enforce.
Thus endeth the lesson in the history and nature of organized religion.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
When me and insaf at times say 'proove' logically that Christ (peace be upon him) was god.... people do point out ' breaking up of the river nile, healing the sick etc'. There is no logic about relegion but just faith or miracles.
I guess what we (insaf and me) mean is. Proof from the Bible that Christ (peace be upon him) claimed to be God.
Putting one verse (having say 5% proof) and the putting another verse (having say 10% proof) and then at the end quoting some 20 to 30 verses saying that all of them when combined togather give 100% proof that Christ (peace be upon him) claimed to be God... sorry isnt proof at all.
Same way we can put 20 to 30 verses that when combined togather also proove that Christ (peace be upon him) clearly claimed that he was not God.
Matthew 28:19 is the only verse that may , again may support trinity. All other verses from the 4 gospels do not support trinity and people have been forcefully implyng that they do.
A statement like the first commandment is not there for Christ (peace be upon him) full stop ++++++++++++ 05-15-06, 02:15 PM bik74 All the sites that are given to support trinity give something like 100 verses to support trinity. We dont need 100 verses , one is enough. 05-15-06, 03:11 PM babthrower
quote: Originally posted by bik74: ...what we (insaf and me) mean is. Proof from the Bible that Christ (peace be upon him) claimed to be God.
This is true. If we limit our realm of discourse to only the statements in a limited range of texts - e.g. the OT, the NT, and the Koran - the 'canons of Western Religion - then it is possible to reason logically. But we must not extend the range to include events not mentioned in these texts. That's acceptable for the purpose of arriving at some points of agreement if that is possible.
But it is not possible to avoid contradictions.
My point is that since these religions are part of a sequence, each with its contexts of secular events, its kings, its power grabs, and so forth, there are actual contradictions. Not merely verbal issues, - quibbles, translations, and so forth. But actual contradictions in the nature of Jehovah who is a deity common to all three. I will call him Allah so we may include Muslims.
Leave for a moment the question of the trinity, we can return to that.
Let us go to a more basic question. If Jehovah swore fealty to the Jews, why is he now the god of non-Jewish semitics and indeed of all races and of the whole peoples of the world? 05-15-06, 04:10 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by babthrower:
Let us go to a more basic question. If Jehovah swore fealty to the Jews, why is he now the god of non-Jewish semitics and indeed of all races and of the whole peoples of the world?
The reason why we stick with the 4 gospels and OT in our dicsussion is because that is a common ground.
Now to your basic question. No doubt the jews were chosen. But Quran also tells us that messengers were sent to all the people (not just the jews). 016.036 PICKTHAL: And verily We have raised in every nation a messenger, (proclaiming): Serve Allah and shun false gods. Then some of them (there were) whom Allah guided, and some of them (there were) upon whom error had just hold. Do but travel in the land and see the nature of the consequence for the deniers! .
Muhammed (peace be upon him) is just the seal of the prophets (as per Quran).
He who follows the will of God (without bigotry) is superior in the sight of Allah. The Bible God was always the God for everyone. 05-16-06, 12:54 AM babthrower But what about the promises Jehovah (Allah) made to the Jews? 05-16-06, 02:52 AM tsaeb bik74: Can you cite where in the Koran Mohamed is called the seal of the prophets? Is it where he is called the last prophet? 05-16-06, 09:23 AM newnickname Sura 33:40 “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.”
There's some debate about the meaning of 'seal', apparently. Does it mean 'best' or 'last'?
On Finality of Prophethood 05-16-06, 11:02 AM babthrower Probably 'last' cf 'signed, sealed and delivered'. Joseph Smith is also the last. Just an afterthought, maybe. 05-16-06, 11:12 AM juanruiz
quote: Joseph Smith is also the last. Just an afterthought, maybe.
Actually, every LDS president carries the titles "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator." 05-16-06, 11:46 AM babthrower I think I caught that one, called 'The Revelator'. A woman is about to give birth to a new prophet. The Revelator returns from the future to prevent it. Played by a hunky kinda guy with an accent. Not bad. Good action flick. 05-16-06, 02:28 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by newnickname: Sura 33:40 “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.”
There's some debate about the meaning of 'seal', apparently. Does it mean 'best' or 'last'?
On Finality of Prophethood
Yeah there is a debate. People have found a loophole even in this verse. Do want to say that the debate is not between sunnis and shias , which would easily form 98% of the muslims. Its the 'Ahmadis' and some new sects in USA that want this debate. Their contention is (other than the above one). Seal of prophets , does not include seal of messengers. Messengers will come from God preaching the same Islam. This view no surprisingly is held by the people who do believe in some other messengers after Muhammed (peace be upon him). 5:3 This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
People over here on this site, I do not think know who 'Ahmadis' are. Their belief would actualy interest a lot of christians. Saudia Arabia and Pakistan (by law) have declared them as non muslims (right or wrong I do not know). Other countries do not know a lot about them. There are lots of 'Ahmadis' in UK and India as well (besides Pakistan). _______________________________________
While apparently their is only one Quranic verse with regard to the finality of the holy prophet (peace be upon him) there are many sayings that support this view:
Bukhari and Sahih Muslim
Narrated Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas (one of the blessed 10 companions) :
Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet said, "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."
The final sermon of the holy prophet (peace be upon him) is recorded differently by different people but all say this:
O’ people! No Prophet would be raised after me and no new Ummah (would be formed) after you.
Allah's Apostle said, "My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets." __________________________________________
I suppose some sayings of the holy prophet (peace be upon him) maybe found to contradict the above.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: bik74, 05-16-06 05:38 PM 05-16-06, 02:36 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by babthrower: But what about the promises Jehovah (Allah) made to the Jews?
Do state the relevant verse and I will try and answer. However remember that I being a muslim (unlike a christian) will always have the privilage of rejecting a bible verse saying its manly editing Smile.
Do think the definition of a jew (today and 2000 years ago) !.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: bik74, 05-17-06 04:04 PM 05-16-06, 04:56 PM babthrower Okay, bik, I will do my 'homework' and answer soon. You say "However remember that I being a muslim ... will always have the privilage of rejecting a bible verse saying its manly editing...". Well, Christians do it too. They just say that the text was mistranslated.
Maybe the atheist 'bible' is Darwin? part of it, anyhow. When someone points out to us that Darwin admitted to being puzzled about how the complex eyes of birds and mammals could evolve by natural selection alone, we quickly say, "But that was 19th Century Darwinism! Today we understand so much more!" Wink 05-17-06, 03:03 PM bik74 oops
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
