This Sunday is Mothering Sunday. This is an ancient,Christian, festival still celebrated in Britain, yet Americans don't have it. It seems that Americans have 'Mothers' Day' but that's a C19 invention and is celebrated in May. What did Americans have, if anything, before then?
Originally our Mothering Sunday was the day when everyone visited their 'Mother Church', which naturally meant that mothers met their children, wherever those were living.It soon, and inevitably, became a celebration of motherhood It falls towards the end of Lent. And 'Simnel cakes' are baked, too. (That's a cake with a marzipan top which is baked only for this occasion).
Fred you are a darling. I had TOTALLY forgotten it was Mothering Sunday in the UK this Sunday, because ours is in May here. Now I won't have to suffer the wrath of my mother for missing it, again! Thanks for reminding me! (((( Fred)))))
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What did Americans have, if anything, before then?
You mean what did we have before Hallmark reminded us that our mothers were important to us?
Well Ken, for some of us I guess, Christmas is a holiday, and a time to be with friends and family, but it has no religious attachments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a winter celebration long before Christians decided to choose a particular date to celebrate the birth of Jesus?
Do Christians find it offensive that non-believers send cards with Christmas greetings, or is it just that those cards contain no mention of Christ? Assuming Christians are able accept that there are people that do not believe in the way they do, then how would they have us approach such celebrations as Christmas and Easter Sunday?
With regard to Exodus, I think there are also examples in the bible, where violence against women, though not specifically mothers, is advocated.
American Christians can hardly complain. It's not as though the USA is a Christian country . It's secular through and through, isn't it? That's why a town hall can't have a Christma crib on display. It's why Americans keep referring to the public holiday centred on 25th December as "the holidays", puzzling us Britons !(We call it Christmas. If we are referring to businesses being closed we say "the Christmas break" or " the Christmas holiday") American greetings cards companies just reflect that fact: "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" appears far more often on Christmas cards we get from Americans than "Merry Christmas" ever does.But our Head of State is, ex officio, head of the principal church: we are a Christian country.
Not sure why American politicians keep mentioning God or their Christian faith every other day of the year, though
I have no idea if there was a winter celebration. I can see celebration at Spring, But until there became snowmobiles, I see no reason why people would celebrate winter. And I wonder about snowmobilers also.
I do not give an account for what Christians do, Each person can give account for themselves, They might know their reason for doing a certain thing. I mentioned Hallmark as they seem to be offended by Christ, But not in making money selling cards and bulbs using the time to exploit Christ.
The way I see Scripture we are not suppose to accept there are people who do not believe, But do what we can to show them Christ. I am referring to not stop trying, They are not to be forced.
As far as what unbelievers should do during Religious celebrations, That is up to the unbeliever.
Where do you see violence advocated against women in Scripture. Other then for sins under the law which was also advocated against men. Even though it was not always applied. Like the Woman caught in Adultery but the man who had to be caught also, was not brought. Unless he was mentally retarded where they might not have thought him accountable, He should have been brought also.
FredPuli.
I think America for the most part can be called a Christian Country, That is the basis for most of our laws and ways of life. Our Separate between Church and State is in the middle of many conflicts.
Like taking prayers out of Schools, It might have been God’s idea. Many teachers did not believe in God, leading the Children in prayer was not too great an idea. I remember hearing a teacher say, I do not believe this, But we have to say it.
When is your head of the Church going to start preaching Christ? And put being the Head of the Church serious? She should not be attending Service, She should be holding service. Do you think she could hold her own, in a Theology class?
Head of the Church of England is a honorary title. Even being Queen is just honorary. She does not run England. No more “off with your head.” So if that is your claim to being a Christian Country. Not a solid claim.
As far as politicians, They know there are a lot of voters who are Christians. Regardless if they are believers or not, They want those voters to like them.
Ken
Posts: 466 | Location: Ilion NY | Registered: 04-18-07
Originally posted by Ken1Burton: Where do you see violence advocated against women in Scripture. Other then for sins under the law which was also advocated against men. Even though it was not always applied. Like the Woman caught in Adultery but the man who had to be caught also, was not brought. Unless he was mentally retarded where they might not have thought him accountable, He should have been brought also.
Deuteronomy 22:13, and 23,24, Numbers 31:15-17, Judges 19:24. I am sure there are others.
Deuteronomy 22:13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, 14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: 15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: 16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; 17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her , saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. 18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; 19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. 20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: 21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
Under normal circumstances this sin was punishable by death, If she was still a virgin but had no evidence of it due to an accident, She would have been killed.
Deuteronomy 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
This is the law of Adultery, The Woman was suppose to cry out when in the city, if this was rape. notice the man also is put to death here. Where as it happening in the field. It is assumed she is innocent.
Deuteronomy 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
Here is it violence against a man? Seeing he might not have known she was betrothed.
Numbers 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Violence against women? God had said to kill then all. Most of mankind sees deth much different then God does. He wanted them all taken at once. And They would all be together. Asleep till Jesus died for sins, and raised them all the third day. The Children go directly to God. No waiting. Had they done as commanded, all the Children would have each other there.
God spoke of driving out the inhabitants of the Land because of their evil. If you think living in an evil place is nice, I can suggest a few places for you to move to. Had they done as commanded, all the Children would be very happy in Heaven, and the adults would be asleep. Those who were evil, Those who had to live among the evil persons.
You might see death as bad, But remember all die on this earth. Had God just had the Adults killed, many children then would suffer. I think that is the reason God had the women great with Child cut open and the unborn child killed, So it would not suffer any longer then it had to.
Judges 19:24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
This is what the man did, I am sure that Christianity has placed more value on Women then any other religion, or lack of religion. Women have almost no value in most of the world, Even the Quran says :What will the newborn Girl buried alive in the sand. Answer Allah when He asks “For what crime were you slain?”
Most of this world seems to advocate violence against women, If anything, Christianity has done more for protecting women and girl babies then any other factor on earth. I think you forgot, there are two sides to a Balance.
Ken
Posts: 466 | Location: Ilion NY | Registered: 04-18-07
No problem, God often uses things taken wrong to speak things He wishes heard, Maybe God wanted the Queen to take the job serious, Pass it on to her. Maybe you would be better off to write her, Address the letter to the Head of the Church of England, and Ask her Scriptural questions.
If you find yourself in the Tower of London, Maybe she still does have some power.
Ken
Posts: 466 | Location: Ilion NY | Registered: 04-18-07
"Had God just had the Adults killed, many children then would suffer. I think that is the reason God had the women great with Child cut open and the unborn child killed, So it would not suffer any longer then it had to."
The logic of using this as an example of God's mercy or kindness to women escapes me, as does the equating "chastising" a man with killing a woman. Do women feel it less? Is a man so sensitive that merely chastising him is the same as killing a woman? And what is the punishment for a man who is not a virgin?
Please answer what was asked. Don't dance around and avoid a direct answer as you did with dg. She gave specific cases, and you pretty much ignored what those examples said. Unless there are serious translation errors, your quoting more of her examples supports what she said.
I also think you don't really understand what the Quran was saying in the example you gave. My copy is not handy, so perhaps you could tell me what the answer was to Allah's question. Just what was the female's crime?
Regarding the balance: Yes, there are two sides, but that by no means implies that the sides are equal. Any child on a seesaw understands this.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 16987 | Location: Lincoln Place, Granite City, IL, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
I also think you don't really understand what the Quran was saying in the example you gave. My copy is not handy, so perhaps you could tell me what the answer was to Allah's question. Just what was the female's crime?
There was no crime. The question is a rhetorical one:
'During Jahliyat, - the pre-Islamic era of ignorance - Arabs... ...used to bury their little girls alive till Islam condemned the practice as a grave sin and ordered the believers to reject and abhor women who sinned like this. (Surah Al-Isra 17:31 and Al-Mumtahana 60:12) The injunction is repeated in Surah Al-Takwir. The lines read: -
"When the infant girl buried alive, is asked for what crime was she killed; when the records of men's deeds are laid open, .... then each soul shall know what it has done"'www.explore-quran.com
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If anything, Christianity has done more for protecting women and girl babies then any other factor on earth.
Really? More than the women's rights movements of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries? More than reliable and readily available birth control? More than advances in medicine (death in childbirth used to be much more common)?
No problem, God often uses things taken wrong to speak things He wishes heard, Maybe God wanted the Queen to take the job serious, Pass it on to her. Maybe you would be better off to write her, Address the letter to the Head of the Church of England, and Ask her Scriptural questions.
If you find yourself in the Tower of London, Maybe she still does have some power.
Ken
No, she has the Archbishop of Canterbury to tell her the answers to scriptural questions.She chooses the Archbishop of Canterbury.
As we say around here, there's no point in buying a dog and then barking yourself.
JR I don't understand. What, literally and figuratively, is 'getting an eight ball'? (Some reference, I imagine, to American pool but still lost on me).
And what do you mean, or refer to, in this instance?
* ● As I see it, yes * ● Ask again later * ● Better not tell you now * ● Cannot predict now * ● Concentrate and ask again * ● Don't count on it * ● It is certain * ● It is decidedly so * ● Most likely * ● My reply is no * ● My sources say no * ● Outlook good * ● Outlook not so good * ● Reply hazy, try again * ● Signs point to yes * ● Very doubtful * ● Without a doubt * ● Yes * ● Yes - definitely * ● You may rely on it
Ten of the possible answers are affirmative (●), five are negative (●) and five are non-committal (●). 888888888888888888888888888888 I had one when I was about 8 years old. (A friend was simply amazed at it. I ended up buying one for him for his 21st birthday. It didn't help. He still made lousy decisions. Sorry, Leo.) They were about as big as a softball. (11"-12"/28cm-30cm. circumference)
I also think you don't really understand what the Quran was saying in the example you gave. My copy is not handy, so perhaps you could tell me what the answer was to Allah's question. Just what was the female's crime?
There was no crime. The question is a rhetorical one:
'During Jahliyat, - the pre-Islamic era of ignorance - Arabs... ...used to bury their little girls alive till Islam condemned the practice as a grave sin and ordered the believers to reject and abhor women who sinned like this. (Surah Al-Isra 17:31 and Al-Mumtahana 60:12) The injunction is repeated in Surah Al-Takwir. The lines read: -
"When the infant girl buried alive, is asked for what crime was she killed; when the records of men's deeds are laid open, .... then each soul shall know what it has done"'www.explore-quran.com
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If anything, Christianity has done more for protecting women and girl babies then any other factor on earth.
Really? More than the women's rights movements of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries? More than reliable and readily available birth control? More than advances in medicine (death in childbirth used to be much more common)?
The misquote by Ken was amazing... and deliberate as well.
Romans: .” 3:5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is he? (I am speaking in human terms.) 3:6 Absolutely not! For otherwise how could God judge the world? 3:7 For if by my lie the truth of God enhances to his glory, why am I still actually being judged as a sinner.
Then again i guess it is allowed for Ken to do as such... .
Here is a relegion that comes and stops/challenges an inhuman practices. And then here comes a man guided by his so called Holy Spirit that claims that the same relegion did such a practise . I guess we still cant argue againt the holy spirit.
Dont panic ken.... just quote 5 to 10 random verses, say God speaks similtudes and all this refers to the day of cross.
The general answer of a christian with regard to the verses quoted bg dancegirl is... this was the past the OT. We have the NT now. Apparently God evolves... !
quote by Karen Armstrong (not a muslim)
The same happened in Islam. The 7th century Koran gave women rights of inheritance and divorce that women in the West would not get until the 19th century.
Either God is loving, or He is not. It is recorded of killing the unborn child when the Mother is killed. You might not like the reason I gave, Do you have a better one? For God telling the people to do this?
I do not know the Medical mechanics for how long the unborn Child would live, or how much suffering it would go through. It is the only reason I can see that God would tell them to do this.
DanceGirl was showing the Bible advocation violence against women. I think those verses was not a general hatred for women. As far as men being a virgin, It is a little harder to prove.
Paul did speak against women. And that is general for them all. But Jesus did not have to fulfill what Paul said. He did have to fulfill what Daniel or Jeremiah said to the jot and tittle.
As for the Quran, it listed no answer, it was showing the people that this was not going unseen by Allah. And it also shows they often did kill the female infants. As most of the Orient did as quite common practice, and still we hear of it being done.
QUR'AN 81:8 When the female infant, Buried alive, is questioned-- QUR'AN 81:9 For what crime she was killed;
You know what the Child’s crime is, And there was no reason to kill her. She just happened to be born a female. And a male was wanted.
I noticed you did not answer one statement I made, That Christianity is the main factor in this world which has protected women. So those few examples which were not against all women, Just cases which did do injustice to some women.
NewNickName.
Women’s rights has really just started, Christianity has been helping them for almost 2,000 years. And if you look at the different countries, and the religions most of them follow, Where are the women who do have those rights?
As far as death in Childbirth, That is something we could not do too much about. Except the factor of how old they were allowed to marry, Which resulted in a lot of very young women’s death.
Bik74.
What? Misquote? You mean I did not get every word right, Not back for having read it almost 20 years ago. I got the point.
Now could you explain how you laid killing the infant girls as having been done by the women? Do you think the husband does not know how the wife just gave birth and there is no baby? She might lie her way out of it, But that sounds like a consented killing, whom ever actually did it.
We can see the women’s rights in Islamic Countries, Not a pretty picture in most of them.
Ken
Posts: 466 | Location: Ilion NY | Registered: 04-18-07
"You might not like the reason I gave, Do you have a better one? For God telling the people to do this?"
Whether I do or don't isn't germane to the issue. You claim God as loving, yet have Him telling people to kill unborn babies because of the "sins" of the mother. One would think that a loving, all-powerful God could work out something a bit less cruel to innocents. But then, maybe God didn't say that at all. Obviously, it is not the work of a loving deity.
"DanceGirl was showing the Bible advocation violence against women. I think those verses was not a general hatred for women."
You asked dg ,"Where do you see violence advocated against women in Scripture". She answered with Chapter and verse. I believe, in a court of law, that calls for an "Asked and answered" reply. Of course, you changed the wording in a later response, but I don't think that anyone was fooled by it. You switched to "... general hatred for women." That is not addressing her proof that the Bible most definitely has numerous instances of violence against women. Please take the time to address her proof. Of course, again, that may not be God talking; again, those are not the actions of a loving deity.
"As far as men being a virgin, It is a little harder to prove."
I don't think God would have a problem with proof here, do you? Once again, an all-knowing God would, by definition, know if a man was a virgin or not. Now, had you said that it would be hard for a man to prove another man was or was not a virgin, I would agree. But then, that would seem to mean that the law depended on what Man thought rather than what God knew. That makes it Man's law, not God's.
"As for the Quran, it listed no answer, it was showing the people that this was not going unseen by Allah. And it also shows they often did kill the female infants. As most of the Orient did as quite common practice, and still we hear of it being done.
QUR'AN 81:8 When the female infant, Buried alive, is questioned-- QUR'AN 81:9 For what crime she was killed;
You know what the Child’s crime is, And there was no reason to kill her. She just happened to be born a female. And a male was wanted."
I think you miss the sense of what Allah says here, even though Bik explained it well. But you yourself said that her crime was being female. Whose law says that, God's or Man's? Again, it seems that either you do not have a loving God or it was Man's law. Bik rightly points out that, at least originally, Islam taught against such actions.
"I noticed you did not answer one statement I made, That Christianity is the main factor in this world which has protected women"
Is it necessary for me to repeat what NNN said? His answer was more than sufficient. Any other viewpoint seems to be avoiding the facts of history.
"Women’s rights has really just started, Christianity has been helping them for almost 2,000 years. And if you look at the different countries, and the religions most of them follow, Where are the women who do have those rights?"
Oh, please. Are you completely unaware of history? Of the history of social customs? How many witches were killed in Europe? How many women who took the time to pay attention to nature were condemned? As far as your last sentence, I ask you (or someone who knows history) about women's rights in Israel, the former Soviet bloc countries, Cuba, and a few others. Even today, in the US, the Religious Right, the Christian Religious Right, places women as servants and subservient to men. We have had a few here, members of the Religious Right, who have said as much.
Christianity started out as a pretty good religion. Then Christ died, and it's gone downhill ever since.
One more thing -
"I think America for the most part can be called a Christian Country, That is the basis for most of our laws and ways of life."
You are very clearly wrong here. You may be confusing the Ten Commandments with Christianity. They were written just a few years earlier, and, if I am not mistaken, given to a Hebrew, not a Christian. Further, you seem to be unaware of the treaty with a North African state, sign by an emissary of John Adams (I think), in which it was very clearly stated that the United States was not a Christian country.
Ken, you're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but you have to use the same set of facts that we all have. If you don't, then what you write is properly called fiction.
Posts: 16987 | Location: Lincoln Place, Granite City, IL, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
