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Diamond
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Jesus said that it is not what goes into the mouth of a man which defiles him but what comes out of a man which defiles him. Paul continued to mention eating and covered that circumcision is not a necessity. Frankly, I believe that Jesus/Paul had in mind the freeing of the Jews from their rituals.
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Fred, The answer to your question is in Acts 15: quote: Act 15:5-31 NASB
5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, 17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' 18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. 24 we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with {their} words, unsettling your souls, 25 seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word {of mouth.}
28 it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
Act 15:30 So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31 When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement.
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| Posts: 45 | Location: Eastern time U.S.A. | Registered: 09-09-07 | |
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Diamond Enthusiast
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The real reason is because Jews were disenfranchised by the peoples back in the day and the age.
At one time the Law did apply to Christians, and so too the name Jehova and other 'Hebrew' practices. But as time wore on and the Jew became the killer of Christ and other not too nice things, the Christians distanced themselves as far from Hebrew tradition as possible without discarding God altogether.
Yes I know tired scripture is quoted to 'show proof' that Christians need not follow the Law - yet we find that many who qoute those passages are quick to use The Law to condemn others even those we are 'free from the law'.
But we ARE NOT free from the Law.
Matthew 5:17-20 Starts with: ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Saul (AKA Paul) who wrote the other books of the New Testament never met Christ (well he claimed to, in the spirit - yeah right) And he set about changing what Jesus said to fit it to the gentile.
Jesus came for the Jew and only the Jew - thus Jesus' ministry is opposing what Paul would later write. Paul appointed himself as 'teacher' to the Gentiles. Christ focused his attention in the Jews.
PreRoman Christians did convert to a form of Judaism - they practiced circumcision, followed the dietary Laws and Kept the Sabbath as the Hebrews and much more.
Before the formation of the Church there was something on the order of 600 books or sacred texts that different sects of the Christian Movement read and held as sacred or as a bible. The Reformation of the Church brought a counsel that decided which books officially made up the Bible, and further the Laws were put to rest to let in the pagans of the time. And of course they stopped observing the Last Day of the Week (Saturday is the Sabbath) and started worshiping on the Sun's Day (Sunday) the first day of the week.
When you seriously look at christian traditions you find it is paganized, been bent from the earliest followings and teachings.
Of course Rome Ruled supreme - for centuries before the formation of the Roman Church, Christians were rounded up and slaughtered. Constantine allowed Christianity to flourish - as long as it met is rules and his idea of Christianity.
Jesus did not Stop the Law - He followed the Law himself. To be Christian is suppose to mean "to be 'Christ-like'. If we do as Jesus did we would follow the Law.
One of the reasons why I laugh when I see WWJD (What would Jesus Do) is because I know that Jesus would have followed the Law of Moses.
Jews remained loathed and hated as a people and as a race - their Religion by default was 'wrong' and the people of those days worked very hard to remove any Jewish influences from the Roman Church.
Jehova, Yahway, Yhwh was rewritten to God, Lord, Master, Our Father. There are other 'rewrites' in the bible that is struck up to 'translation issues' when in fact they are bald faced lies.
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| Posts: 4146 | Location: Neither here nor there | Registered: 06-03-02 | |
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Diamond
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When I was a cute little girl in catechism class, I had a Jewish friend name Adele. (She was in public school, I in convent school.)
A nun learned this fact about me. She asked me, "Does she try to talk to you?"
I remembered being very puzzled by this question. "Well, yes, she's my friend."
The nun, acting excited and very suspicious, explained she meant 'about religion'.
I said no. We never talked about religion. The nun ordered me not to be her friend any more.
I asked my father about the whole business. He said it is a well-known fact that Jews don't try to convert anyone. Christians, however, do it incessantly.
I later learned, of course, to my horror that Christians and Muslims will kill those who believe other than they do, when they have the power to do so. From then on I viewed Christians and Muslims as hypocrites who care only about spreading their faith so they can control more people.
I have never seen any evidence that my childish conclusion was wrong; but plenty that it was right.
question: If Peter was the chief apostle, chosen by Jesus to have the keys to the kingdom of heaven (an interesting delegation on Jesus' part, all by itself: what, his schedule was so busy he needed to hand over power over souls to a human?) why did Paul's view prevail? What does that say about papal infallibility?
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| Posts: 6961 | Location: British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 06-11-02 | |
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Diamond
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2005 Enthusiast of the Year
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Not always a problem in Britain, babs. I had a Jewish friend who had attended a school run by an order of nuns. She explained that she had not been alone, her sister and other Jewish girls attended it.And what was the logic? Her father thought that anyone who had faith and who devoted their life to teaching children without any monetary reward, was the most suitable person to teach his daughters.It didn't worry him in the slightest that the 'faith' was Christian.As an adult, my friend attended synagogue and kept the standard observances, just as she had as a girl.
Why did the school accept Jews? A 'faith school' then would not be obliged to take anyone, obviously. Hendon, in North London, has a higher Jewish population than some boroughs , at 14 per cent, but it's still in the minority.The school can't have been desperate for recruits.It was just a liberal- minded school. " Bring me the little chidren...." eh?
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| Posts: 11798 | Location: Newmarket, UK/ Antibes, S.France | Registered: 07-14-02 | |
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Diamond
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Fred, I just think England has a more liberal view of lots of things than we in the raw brash New World have. In general, I mean. And most of the time. It's interesting to think about the early colonial times. The Puritans who were then oppressed in England hit the ground running, immediately trying to establish their faith as the official religion. But as you know those who believed in the principle of separation of church and state, remembering the horrors of the Hundred Years War and so forth in Europe, prevailed. So far.
Isn't it interesting to compare a proselytising
religion with a Ponzi scheme? Religion's better, really, because you don't have to pay them in real money. The founder and those who are his loyal and immediate supporters get the real money, and the adherents get the reward when they die -- the magic virgins, the pearly gates, the heavenly choirs, the eternity of bliss. So unlike a Ponzi scheme, there are no rat-finks to report that the reward is simply not there. So it goes on forever.
I've thought of Paul who got tired of being a tax-collector and decided to try the religion gig. But the pool of potential converts was just not big enough. A problem easily solved, though. Jehovah, who though all-knowing had somehow overlooked that the Jews would displease him, opens the gates to all people. And since the requirement for circumcision was a bit of an obstacle for potential converts, let's just do away with it.
The amazing thing about credulous people, whether they're lottery buyers or religious junkies, is their seemingly infinite ability to shut out contradictory evidence.
Jesus is supposed to be the perfect man, in fact god; and he was a simple carpenter -- when he worked. But the pope must live like a Roman Emperor, in a palace, with silken robes and huge jewels, surrounded by servants and flunkies, and have people bow down to him and kiss his ring or whatever.
The pope won't allow birth control; it is contrary to the will of god. But a series of popes enjoyed the angelic sound which young boys in choir produce; so the popes approved of the castration of the boys so that their vocal talents would be optimized. (Which policy of the vatican would affect the pool of potential Ponzi victims the most?)
(They couldn't have girls and women sing for the Pope because Paul had said that women must be silent in the churches.)
The Irish Catholics blame the English for the deaths from the potato famine. That is so they don't have to think about the fact that while they were starving, Irish money was still going to Rome. Pope Gregory the Sixteenth established the Vatican Etruscan Museum in 1837 and the Egyptian Museum in eighteen thirty-nine.
In 1823 a fire had destroyed a massive collection of Vatican art; only forty masterpieces were saved. Between that year and 1854, Popes Leo XII, Gregory XVI and Pius IX had the Basilica rebuilt.
In 1847, Pope Pius IX commissioned the repainting of a series of paintings of all the popes to date, and also make a mosaic of all of them.
Between 1845 and 1851 an estimated 750,000 Irish died of starvation, and an equal number emigrated.
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| Posts: 6961 | Location: British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 06-11-02 | |
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Diamond
Enthusiast
2005 Enthusiast of the Year
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Curiously the Christian religion is, by law,still a part of our education system.Nobody has ever repealed the 1944 Education Act which requires, inter alia, that the school day begin with "collective worship" and every school have a set time for religious education that is broadly Christian in character.In my time the day truly did start like that, with Christian hymns and prayers and often a Lesson read from the bible.Note that mine was not a 'faith school', a school established for a particular religion, but an ordinary one. State schools all did the same. Anyone who was not Christian was permitted to withdraw from this part, attending only the last bit when school notices were read out.
This being Britain we didn't exactly change that: we allowed it be for schools to decide what was appropriate for them,gradually watering down the Christian or 'collective worship' part as they thought appropriate .Religious education in schools remains compulsory but it now includes a rather wider view than that of teaching only Christian texts and Christianity.
Under later legislation,each education authority has a committee to decide each year just how the national syllabus is carried out there.That's so the input can be varied a bit to reflect what religions in the area it is important for children to know more about.I knew nothing of Judaism, Sikhism, Islam or even Catholicism, when I was at school,but this generation is encouraged to know everyone's beliefs and traditions.
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| Posts: 11798 | Location: Newmarket, UK/ Antibes, S.France | Registered: 07-14-02 | |
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Diamond
Enthusiast
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quote: question: If Peter was the chief apostle, chosen by Jesus to have the keys to the kingdom of heaven (an interesting delegation on Jesus' part, all by itself: what, his schedule was so busy he needed to hand over power over souls to a human?) why did Paul's view prevail?
Simple. Peter never wrote anything, despite the fact there are epistles attributed to him in the Bible. He was an illiterate fisherman. Where would he have learned the sophistcated Greek to write anything? The key to this whole question is Acts. Its author, Luke, tried to cover up all the conflict between Paul's new religion and Jesus' teachings. Notice that there it is clear that Peter and James continued to practice Judaism and the Law. This must have been well known since Luke admits it. It's Paul who constructed Christianity; at least the form that became orthodox. And, as I've said ad nauseum, Paul's new religion was a steal from Hellenistic mystery religions and Gnosticism. As the great German scholar Rudolf Bultmann found, there is no Jesus in the New Testament, only the Christ of faith. |
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| Posts: 8300 | Location: On Vacation | Registered: 06-06-02 | |
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Diamond
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quote: The more religions where certain resonances would have reassured potential converts that there was truth in the Christian teachings. North American missionaries say that when the native North Americans heard the story of Noah, they remembered a story of a great flood, and a man and woman surviving in a canoe to re-start humanity. These people lived in the St.Lawrence-Great Lakes basin!
Babs, I'm not sure, but I think you are saying that where the native peoples could draw parallels to their own lives, when they heard biblical stories, then they were more likely to accept Christian teachings? When I read the above, it reminded me of a book I read earlier this year, that I very much wanted to recommend to you. I can't think that anyone living outside Canada would be as interested in it, as Canadians wanting to get a sense of the beginnings of this country. It's fiction, but based on real characters. The Nine Lives of Charlotte Taylor: The First Woman Settler of the Miramichi by Sally Amstrong. The epic true story of Charlotte Taylor, as told by her great-great-great-granddaughter, one of Canada’s foremost journalists.
In 1775, twenty-year-old Charlotte Taylor fled her English country house with her lover, the family’s black butler. To escape the fury of her father, they boarded a ship for the West Indies, but ten days after reaching shore, Charlotte’s lover died of yellow fever, leaving her alone and pregnant in Jamaica.
Undaunted, Charlotte swiftly made an alliance with a British naval commodore, who plied a trading route between the islands and British North America, and travelled north with him. She landed at the Baie de Chaleur, in what is present-day New Brunswick, where she found refuge with the Mi’kmaq and birthed her baby. In the sixty-six years that followed, she would have three husbands, nine more children and a lifelong relationship with an aboriginal man.
Charlotte Taylor lived in the front row of history, walking the same paths as the expelled Acadians, the privateers of the British-American War and the newly arriving Loyalists. In a rough and beautiful landscape, she struggled to clear and claim land, and battled the devastating epidemics that stalked her growing family. Using a seamless blend of fact and fiction, Charlotte Taylor’s great-great-great-granddaughter, Sally Armstrong, reclaims the life of a dauntless and unusual woman and delivers living history with all the drama and sweep of a novel. Random House Anyway, it looks at the first white settlers to Canada and their relationships with the aboriginal peoples. Off topic I know, but I thought you might find it worth looking at. |
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Diamond
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quote: Originally posted by DvdGStwrt: quote: Originally posted by juanruiz:
A superb historical and theological encapsulation of Christianity, David.
I learned from the Best Juan! 
Had to have been all the people on Jeeves: Minnesota, gar, rupert, annie. answergirl, Mikey et al. Hope you are doing well, David. |
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| Posts: 8300 | Location: On Vacation | Registered: 06-06-02 | |
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Diamond
Enthusiast
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DG, what a desperate life! They were tough, weren't they? Maybe they were happier than most of us. Just getting through a day alive was a victory, it sounds like. My father was in the Peace River country of Northern Alberta in the early years of the last century. He had a little business fishing white fish from Lesser Slave Lake. He hired native people -- they would have been part of the Athabaskan group, I think, or maybe Cree -- and they all worked very hard. He said, though, that he had seldom met a happier people. While working, they would jump to help anyone who was having a problem for example with a heavy net, and they watched out for each other. At the end of the day, with a good dinner and a full tummy, they would forget their aches and pains, and sit around the fire and sing. No angst or self-pity there!
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| Posts: 6961 | Location: British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 06-11-02 | |
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Diamond
Enthusiast
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quote: Originally posted by GarColga:
juan - where have you been? I was worried that you might have run off and joined the Moonies, or were going door-to-door as a McCain volunteer.
Nice to see you back!
I think I may have been the problem with my insensitive remarks, Gar. Anyway, let me say welcome back, too, jr.  |
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