Why is it that Roman Catholics get miracles and the rest of us don't? Whoever heard of a Quaker witnessing a miracle, for example?

And are there fashions in miracles? Take Lourdes, Knock (Ireland) and others which are concerned with miracles connected with Mary.Mary seems quite a favourite at times. Were there not times and places when miracles were associated with the appearance of or effigies of other saintly people ?

In order to become a saint in the Roman Catholic church, there must be miracles attributed to the candidate. A miracle attributed to Mother Theresa (born in Macedonia, ) is doubted by many, but that didn't stop John Paul II from going ahead with the process. (JP cannonized about 500 saints, 5 times as many as the rest of the 20thC popes.) The same is now happening with John Paul II. Since John Paul eliminated the position of the Devil's Advocate, I don't think that it will be long before both become saints.

To the best of my knowledge, the Church of England has connonized* one saint, Charles I. However, those made saints before the Reformation are considered saints as well. There are many Orthodox saints, including the last Tsar and his family.

*I have read that Diana is being mentioned for sainthood. Can anyone verify this?
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03-06-06, 06:12 PM
FredPuli

quote:
Originally posted by DorianGreyed:

*I have read that Diana is being mentioned for sainthood. Can anyone verify this?



By whom? She was Church of England, wasn't she? She was certainly Protestant. (She can't, under English law, have been Roman Catholic and married to Charles)

The Church of England creates no saints and does not venerate any. Charles I is a non-saint Smile There appears to be one church only, in Tunbridge, that is known by his name. Prayers for him were removed from the Prayer Book in Victorian times.

Still, if miracles only happen to, or are only witnessed by, Roman Catholics alone it might be hard for protestants to justify canonising anyone protestant Big Grin

Gibbon drily noted in Decline and Fall... that early writers reported the fathers of the Church regularly witnessing or performing miracles yet these men themselves had singularly forgotten or neglected to mention these striking events in their own writings Wink We might think the same of recent candidates for sainthood Smile

(It's a pity we don't have saints. The French have a saint for every day and everyone gets a gift on their own saint's day. Each saint's day has its own saying too, which is duly printed in the newspapers. These dictons are almost invariably related to the weather and to agriculture : some are quite bizarre bits of weather lore )

03-06-06, 07:25 PM
Leppi
It depends on what you classify as a miracle, is a miracle classified as something stopping midair? Or is a miracle something more along the lines of a sick patient who was told he has a cancerous tumor in his brain, suddenly told the tumor disappeared?

03-06-06, 07:51 PM
DorianGreyed
Fred, you have to admit that St. Diana the Babe would be a real draw for the church.

03-06-06, 07:56 PM
FredPuli
What I had in mind was any event which is contrary to the laws of physics or nature. So a woman conceiving without a male inseminating her or a man walking on water or turning water instantly into wine or a statue that bleeds human blood would all be miracles. What we colloquially call miracles e.g.miners surviving for days when trapped, a tumour that disappears, Cambridge United winning the League, have an explanation in science. (No, on second thoughts, the last one would be a miracle , by any definition Big Grin )

03-06-06, 08:01 PM
FredPuli

quote:
Originally posted by DorianGreyed:
Fred, you have to admit that St. Diana the Babe would be a real draw for the church.


Yup. And she was martyred by the secret service acting on behalf of the Royal Family Big Grin Big Grin So the head of one Church had her killed and now she can be canonised by the head of another.It's quite like times under the last Queen Elizabeth

03-06-06, 11:09 PM
philalethist
Some miracles are not really miracles at all when you understand them in a spiritual manour.
You don't find anyone added to the Bible after St John.

03-07-06, 08:42 AM
VelvetVoice
In the Protestant church, all people are considered saints. We do have martyrs, but we do not attribute miracles to particular people. We are to assume humility, knowing that we are merely vessels.

Christ did say that we are not to believe or follow false prophets. "Do not believe when someone says 'I am the Christ' or 'here He is', for many will come in My name and perform signs and wonders to mislead even the elect, if that were possible." Also, Paul says "even the Devil can appear as an angel of light." And John says "there are many false prophets that have already gone out into the world."

When Christ comes, "every eye will see", and we will have no need to verify or explain. The questions will be answered in every heart.

03-07-06, 08:51 AM
juanruiz

quote:
Christ did say that we are not to believe or follow false prophets.


Wouldn't be surprised if he had Paul in mind.

03-07-06, 09:07 AM
philalethist
Also it is given the way to Identify the ones who are false prophets. John 3:34 For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the spirit by measure unto him.

In this is the catch. One cant know if another is speaking according to the word unless they know what is written in the word. Those great swelling words of vainity that sound good to the ear may indeed not even resemble the truth.
So we have Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testamony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

03-07-06, 09:16 AM
juanruiz
Whether one reads the canonical NT works or those that did not make the cut, reference to "false prophets" abounds. For the sake of simplicity, "false prophets" may be defined as 'all writers but me'.

03-07-06, 09:41 AM
tsaeb

quote:
Originally posted by VelvetVoice:
In the Protestant church, all people are considered saints. We do have martyrs, but we do not attribute miracles to particular people. We are to assume humility, knowing that we are merely vessels.


There is possible confusion here. One of the nine spiritual gifts still is the working of miracles so that individuals can work miracles, although it is God who is enabling them to do so with His Holy Spirit working for them, in them, and through them.

03-07-06, 12:55 PM
sid1114
My understanding of "miracle" is something that implies divine intervention. Perhaps I'm entirely wrong. But, based on such an understanding, I've always been bemused and amused by the use of the term. For example, the survivor (such as it is) of the recent mine disaster. If his survival is proof of God's work, then why is not the death of the other twelve? If God is capable of interceding on behalf of a person and chooses to do so, then is not the decision not to equally an intervention? So why is it more of a miracle when someone survives a tumor than when one dies of it? If God is seen as making choices then how is anything we see not a choice of God? It's all a miracle, or nothing is. Or God is making pretty unchristian choices most of the time.... We call it a miracle when God does something good. What does that say about that God guy, anyway...

03-07-06, 01:39 PM
philalethist
Are U Ready for this? Well as is stated that God is your life and the length of thy days in Deut 30:20, then god was with each and every one of the thirteen men in the mine. We also have the item of Fate. What is called a miracle is in many cases just how it worked out for the individual concerned. God is a one on one situation which enables us to come together mutualy, its called being civilized. Life is like a golden thread, it is very thin and delicate and can be easily broken and for this reason we should walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise. If we think something is a dangerous situation we should pack our bags so to speak and not dilly dally around. You have not read, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God?
So we in our daily lives tempt God continuously.
An example could be one driving down a city street and they have the green light. But a big truck is coming from the other direction and it can not stop. If the first driver takes what is his according to the law he can also be dead right. Therefore every second of every minute of every day we have to be alert to life around us. If we drop our guard that little thing steps in called fate and it is something that is beyond control.

03-07-06, 05:30 PM
Leppi

quote:
Originally posted by sid1114:
My understanding of "miracle" is something that implies divine intervention. Perhaps I'm entirely wrong. But, based on such an understanding, I've always been bemused and amused by the use of the term. For example, the survivor (such as it is) of the recent mine disaster. If his survival is proof of God's work, then why is not the death of the other twelve? If God is capable of interceding on behalf of a person and chooses to do so, then is not the decision not to equally an intervention? So why is it more of a miracle when someone survives a tumor than when one dies of it? If God is seen as making choices then how is anything we see not a choice of God? It's all a miracle, or nothing is. Or God is making pretty unchristian choices most of the time.... We call it a miracle when God does something good. What does that say about that God guy, anyway...


sid while I know that many of the people on the site would disagree with what I am saying now, Judaism agrees with you in a fasion. According to judiasm, everything that happens, even the fact that laws of nature function, is a miracle from G-d. It just happens then when something G-d happens, people become aware of all the miracles happening around them and then thank G-d, and as for the bad, they simply don't see the good in it...

03-07-06, 08:20 PM
sid1114
"According to judiasm, everything that happens, even the fact that laws of nature function, is a miracle from G-d."


Indeed, it is said "the lord giveth and the lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the lord." Which is another way, I suppose, of saying what I said: either everything is a miracle, or nothing is. Either God has his hand in everything, or nothing. And since you mention it, for the record, I'm genetically as Jewish as they come... generations and eons on both sides. Theologically, I've come to the inarguable position that if a creator exists (if so, how was he/she/it/they created?) it by all reason must be entirely different from the Judeo-Christian (emphasis on Christian) view. It simply is to self-contradictory at best, or corrupt at worst, to make sense.

03-09-06, 09:43 AM
philalethist

quote:
Originally posted by sid1114:
"According to judiasm, everything that happens, even the fact that laws of nature function, is a miracle from G-d."


Indeed, it is said "the lord giveth and the lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the lord." Which is another way, I suppose, of saying what I said: either everything is a miracle, or nothing is. Either God has his hand in everything, or nothing. And since you mention it, for the record, I'm genetically as Jewish as they come... generations and eons on both sides. Theologically, I've come to the inarguable position that if a creator exists (if so, how was he/she/it/they created?) it by all reason must be entirely different from the Judeo-Christian (emphasis on Christian) view. It simply is to self-contradictory at best, or corrupt at worst, to make sense.


The more you tell of yourself , the more I am coming to like your person. my personal Doctor is geneticaly as you are. I once told him that he was my favorite Doctor and he ask me what I had been drinking. Next visit he checked me out and said your lungs are improved and what ever you are doing keep it up. I told him that I had told my mind to heal my body. He looked me in the eyes and said nothing.

But back to what you had to say which I find some truth in. You have many questions and although I am not geneticaly as you are(maybe) I think I have found the answers. Some are of a psycological nature, but to understand one must go through a psycological change so to speak and look at things in a different way. So lets just say that what was born 2000 years ago was born from the Torah. So adding to this it was a new way of seeing what was written and the true meaning of it. But this new way was rejected and in that form, and that form only, was it crucified. Not a man but was meant to be the simplicity of the truth of life. So as is written , unto the jews as a stumblingblock and to the greeks as foolishness. So the corner stone which the builder rejected was in effect the corner stone of the build blocks of none other than the human mind. It is written that from the abundance of the heart so one speaks. therefore is the heart of a man his mind or the lump of flesh in his chest. Paul who was of the tribe of Benjamin and was a scribe and a pharisy said: so the body is made of many members, hands, feet, arms ect. And the least honour is given to the cheif of them all, the head. So like Radio Shack, you have questions and I have answers.

03-09-06, 10:17 PM
Insaf
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

03-09-06, 10:37 PM
philalethist

quote:
Originally posted by Insaf:
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:



Try John 1:1 KJV & Malachi 3:6 KJV

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,