The Wise Men were not Astrologers, They were Bible students. They knew the prophecy that pointed to the Birth of the Christ. And they knew it spoke of them.

They knew the Promise to David. That God said He would raise up David’’s son. After David was dead would this happen.

(2SAMUEL 7:11) And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the Lord telleth thee that he will make thee an house. (KJV)

(2SAMUEL 7:12) And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. (KJV)

(2SAMUEL 7:13) He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. (KJV)

(2SAMUEL 7:14) I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: (KJV)

The day of the Cross is a day taken out of time, a day named "For ever." That is when the Throne of Christ is established, and that is when the House is built, What Jesus went forth to prepare for us. A House for us With God.

David already had Children, "Shall proceed" means they are not going to be used, But one later. Solomon became King while David was still alive, So Solomon can not fulfill the Promise.

David had a Son just after the Promise. And like the Stone which the Builders rejected, Most would not consider God would use that son at all.

(1CORINTHIANS 1:28) And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: (KJV)

The Child was conceived outside wedlock to Bathsheba while she was still the wife of Uriah the Hittite. David had Uriah killed in Battle and He took Bathsheba to be his wife.

The Child was born about 1004 B.C. God struck the Child with Sickness and He died 7 days after Birth.

God’’s law in Deuteronomy 24:16 forbid a child to be put to death for the sins of a Parent, So that is not why the Child died. Jesus is also the "First begotten of the Dead." and you have to die to be REBORN physically.

The Wise men knew the Promise, they knew of the Child born after the promise. They knew the Parable God sent to David, and that the Parable showed that CHILD was to be the Christ, Reborn 1,000 years later to fulfill God’’s law in Deuteronomy 23:2 concerning Children born outside wedlock.

(2SAMUEL 12:4) And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. (KJV)

(JEREMIAH 14:8) O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night? (KJV)
David did not take one of his wives to prepare for the Promise of the Messiah, He took Bathsheba. The poor man’’s lamb.

The law in Deuteronomy 23:2 says a "Child born outside wedlock" (The Word used in the King James is not allowed on this web site.) Shall not enter the Congregation, Not until the Tenth Generation.

God used a 100 year generation when speaking of the Children of Israel being in Egypt, 1004 B.C. To 4 B.C. When a Child is laid in a manger in Bethlehem is 10 100-year generations, Our Calendar is 4 years off.

The wise men knew of the Birth (Rebirth) from reading Isaiah Chapter 60:

(ISAIAH 60:22) A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time. (KJV)

(ISAIAH 60:1) Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. (KJV)

ARISE, From the Dead, if this first word was not there, the Churches would use this as a Prophecy for Bethlehem, But how do you say God came down, and start with the Word ARISE?

(ISAIAH 60:2) For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. (KJV)

(ISAIAH 60:3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. (KJV)

"We Three Kings of Orient are, Bearing Gifts we travel so far."

(ISAIAH 60:4) Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. (KJV)

There were other Babies at the Stable, that is why the Shepherds were told "You will find Him lying in a Manger."

(ISAIAH 60:5) Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. (KJV)

(ISAIAH 60:6) The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the Lord. (KJV)

Incense, Like Frankincense and Myrrh.

Stars are for Signs, and the sign they needed is seen in verse 19:

(ISAIAH 60:19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (KJV)

It was the Brightness of the Moon. And if you are going UPHILL, and the road is angled correctly. It would look as if the Moon stood still over a House. A Very Bright Moon.
So with what the Bible students knew, they knew the Sign, they knew who should come, On camels, and bringing Gold and Incense. And Come they did.

But they also knew where the Child was Born, or where God recorded His Birth. But God hid the Moon from them, So they went to where they thought they were headed all the time, To Jerusalem, the City of David where the Castle of Zion had been.

(PSALMS 87:4) I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there. (KJV)

(PSALMS 87:5) And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. (KJV)

(PSALMS 87:6) The Lord shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah. (KJV)

This is a Similitude, as all prophecies are fulfilled the day of the Cross, The Body of Christ is born the day of the Cross as Zion or Jerusalem (Psalms 2:6/7) and the Child born outside wedlock was Born there also.

So the Wise Men come to Jerusalem asking "Where is He who is Born, King of the Jews?"

God reveals the Moon and off they go to Bethlehem.

Ken.

"Oh Little Moon of Bethlehem."

quote:

Originally posted by Ken1Burton:
The Wise Men were not Astrologers, They were Bible students. They knew the prophecy that pointed to the Birth of the Christ. And they knew it spoke of them.

They may have been students, but they certainly weren't BIBLE students since the compilation of the bible didn't occur until hundreds of years after the death of Christ.

Ken1burton is being mooned now by-golly, except it is his own words that are mooning him. Something like Ballam in Numbers 22:21-31.

Sherasi.

The Bible means “The Book” the Holy Bible means “The Holy Book.” The Bible already had the Old Testament already written, as far as the Roman Catholic Church putting the books together they accepted, Did not change the Jewish Holy Scriptures were available.

So the HOLY BOOK existed. From Genesis to Malachi.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jesus is telling the Jews to search the Scriptures, and that is the Jewish Holy Scriptures or what Christians often call the Old Testament.

Those in Berea also knew the Scriptures as the Jewish books we call the Old Testament.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

So “The Book” was what was available to the people at that time, and the men called the Wise men. Were Bible Students. The Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Bible, as all existed long before they came into existence.


Philalethist.

Plan on being mooned a lot, the White robes are Hospital Gowns.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

It is the “SHAME” of thy nakedness which does not appear, Not thy nakedness. Like in the Garden, they were naked, But not ashamed.

Like being ashamed of being seen as you really are. With the Righteousness of Jesus on us, we are not ashamed of our nakedness.

Ken

quote:

It is the “SHAME” of thy nakedness which does not appear, Not thy nakedness. Like in the Garden, they were naked, But not ashamed.

quote:

It is the “SHAME” of thy nakedness which does not appear, Not thy nakedness. Like in the Garden, they were naked, But not ashamed.

Better read that part again.

Philalethist.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Still reads the same, If the White Robe covered the backside also, There would be no nakedness, So there would be no shame of it. But because this is a similitude, or being ashamed of being seen as you really are. Like the story of Adam and Eve, They had become ashamed of what they did, not their physical Bodies.

That is why Isaiah walked naked in Israel as a Sign for three years, Jesus walked in Israel for three years and He was not ashamed of how He really was.

Isaiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia;
4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.

When Jesus took them all out of hell, there were Egyptian Prisoners lead away, But no longer as Prisoners. But their Buttocks were uncovered, and they do have white robes on already. The Ethiopian Captives are also lead away free, with white robes, But those are like Hospital gowns.

So much for PRIDE.

Zechariah 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Ken

Clothes were made as a covering for sin. Maybe God is working towards the condition in the Garden. Not being ashmaed of what God created.

quote:

And if you are going UPHILL, and the road is angled correctly. It would look as if the Moon stood still over a House.

Would it? The moon appears to travel across the sky in an arc from horizon to horizon, much like the sun does during the day. That road would have to have some fantastic curves and angles - and the house would need to be on wheels.

Actually, none of this seems to hang together:

quote:

Stars are for Signs, and the sign they needed is seen in verse 19:

(ISAIAH 60:19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (KJV)

It was the Brightness of the Moon. And if you are going UPHILL, and the road is angled correctly. It would look as if the Moon stood still over a House. A Very Bright Moon.
So with what the Bible students knew, they knew the Sign, they knew who should come, On camels, and bringing Gold and Incense. And Come they did.

"It was the Brightness of the Moon". What was the brightness fo the moon?

The verse quoted says that neither the sun nor the moon will give light - but God will. So, why would those "Bible scholar" kings then take the brightness of the moon (as seen from their roller-coaster road) as a sign?

Newnickname.

Must be the Moon changed it’s attributes. I see the moon may nights as I am driving, Sometimes is appears to stay in one place, Sometimes on the left, sometimes a moment later on the right, Depends on how the road curves.

But it could easily look as if the Moon was resting in one spot for awhile. And as Bethlehem is Southwest of Jerusalem, The Moon moves as we see it from the east to the west, and is towards the South.

Not many moving stars appear to stand over a house, The Moon can do this with no problem, But only as they are coming to it. Not when they have reached the house.

Actually a slight curve to the west would do quite well. That way you do not see the Moon moving across the sky, as you are slowing turning in that direction.

The Brightness of the Moon is the Sign of the Birth of the King of the Jews. Stars were for signs, So they can be called signs, as well as stars, all the Stars falling to the earth? How about all the signs being fulfilled the day of the Cross? God speaks in Similitudes.

Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

The Birth (Rebirth) at Bethlehem is a Similitude, This will be fulfilled the day of the Cross when Heaven and earth pass. Or the first two 6-hour periods flee from His Face, seen as the Face of a man on the Third beast with 6-wings, Which is New Earth from Sunrise to noon, then New Heaven from Noon to sunset.

The day of the Cross is the Birth of the Body of Christ, This day is taken out of time, and is made as Darkness. So their light is not seen, either of them, till Christ shows us it.

Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Job 3:3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.
4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.
5 Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.
6 As for that night, let darkness seize upon it; let it not be joined unto the days of the year, let it not come into the number of the months.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

And those Bible Students were on a Camel Coaster.

Ken

quote:

But it could easily look as if the Moon was resting in one spot for awhile.

'Awhile'? Define 'awhile'. Minutes? Seconds?

You're right, for those traveling by camel, the moon could only appear 'still' if the road curved smoothly around to follow the moon's arc across the night sky - keeping it dead ahead of them for example (assuming they didn't notice the road was curving, but I think the Wise Men on camels were maybe a lot more tuned in to what was going on in the world around them than the average modern driver). What kind of road is that however? People used roads to get places. There would have been complaints about beautiful but pointless loops.

And this curving road trick would not mean that 'It would look as if the Moon stood still over a House' - unless the house were on wheels. Your first post remains nonsensical.

Polaris looks as if it were 'fixed' in the sky, if that helps any.

You still haven't explained why the Three Kings - 'bible scholars' - would take the brightness of the moon as a sign when the verse you quote (The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light) clearly says that neither the sun nor the moon will give 'light', but that God will. Following that verse, they would discount light coming from the moon as having any spiritual significance.

The prophecies of Daniel are in the Zend Avesta, the "Bible" of Zoroaster. His religion was the official religion of the Persians. During this time period, there was little distinction between astrology and astronomy. An Astrologer also knew astronomy. The Zend Avesta said that Messiah's star would appear in the constellation Virgo. I believe it appeared in a few different constellations before ending up in Virgo.

Daniel was held in high regard by the Persian Magi or wise-men. Nebuchadnezzar was going to have all of his wise-men killed when they could not reveal a dream and its meaning to the king. Daniel saved all of their lives by explaining Nebuchadnezzar's dream (of the statue) as revealed by GOD to Daniel. The Magi knew Daniel's prophecies and were watching the heavens for a sign of a star that would arise according to what Balaam had prophesied. They also knew the approximate time period that this star would appear, according to Daniel (Chapter 9 in the Jewish Bible (OT). They went to the time when the order was given to rebuild the Holy City of Jerusalem and counted 490 years of 360 days, arriving at a time when they were to watch the heavens for a star.

The appearance of the "Christmas star" or the star of Bethlehem occurred once. This astronomical phenomena had not happened before, nor has it happened since that time.

Teshuvah

quote:

This astronomical phenomena had not happened before, nor has it happened since that time.

"A supernova (plural: supernovae or supernovas) is a stellar explosion that creates an extremely luminous object. A supernova causes a burst of radiation that may briefly outshine its entire host galaxy before fading from view over several weeks or months...

...The earliest recorded supernova, SN 185, was viewed by Chinese astronomers in AD 185. The widely observed supernova of SN 1054 produced the Crab Nebula. Supernovae SN 1572 and SN 1604, the last to be observed in the Milky Way galaxy, had notable effects on the development of astronomy in Europe because they were used to argue against the Aristotelian idea that the world beyond the Moon and planets was immutable.[7]" wikipedia - Supernova

I've been thinking about Ken's idea, that it was the moon.

Of course, you'd need the curved road, and the house on wheels being dragged carefully across the Wise Mens' path. You'd also have to make sure that the wise men travelled at a predetermined pace - I guess you could bribe their camel driver. To compensate for the rise and fall of the moon, the road would have to rise and then fall, too. You could disguise this by having the Wise Men start the journey on camels which had shorter legs at the front than at the back, and then switch them to oppositely afflicted camels at the moon's zenith.

It would be more difficult to disguise the fact that the road curved around - maybe this could be done by having a few thousand helpers disguised as palm trees and so on, shuffling about according to a carefully choreographed plan on either side of the road as far as the eye could see, to distort perspectives. You'd have to keep them from giggling, somehow.

I guess if you could do all that, it would be relatively easy to doctor the Wise Mens' scriptures to read something like 'The sun shall be no more thy light by day; instead brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: and the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light'

But I wonder if, fooled into thinking the moon was standing still, the Wise Men would panic at the appearance of the constellations going completely out of whack.

quote:

I guess if you could do all that, it would be relatively easy to doctor the Wise Mens' scriptures to read something like 'The sun shall be no more thy light by day; instead brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: and the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light'

You Betcha and I could see how that would work, really.

Newnickname.

Good thing that was over 2,000 years ago, They might have taken you will them. A slight trip on camels. Careful they don’t spit on you. They thought it important enough to go, No telling if they took the court Jester, Or if the jester ran out of jokes at a bad time.

Supernova have a habit of also remaining in the same spot, as least as it would appear to men in relationship to the rest of the solar system, Long enough to have it recorded by many before it faded away. Or at least till it could no longer be seen by eye, it would have shown fading over a period of time.

At least on close enough to have been view by Human eyes, and being that Bright? And you are basically saying is also, that had it been a supernova, then it could still be seen where it was. Those supernova’s have tracks, and no one listed any as the possible star of Bethlehem. Problem with location and date, Tracking the Supernova should be able to get close to the Birth date, Were it is located.

Just sit in the back yard every night (located at Downtown Bethlehem) at midnight, Let us know when you have that Supernova remains directly over head at Midnight, And we will now the day of the year Jesus was born (reborn) at Bethlehem.

Due to cloud cover, this might take a few years.

And take the Book of Isaiah with you, Might be nice reading on a cold Night in Bethlehem.

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.

I think Philalethist might be interested in some part-time help as camel tender.

Ken

You two are kinda close for joining this forum, You are not twins by any chance are you? or share computers?

quote:

You two are kinda close for joining this forum

Rather be close than far out, or some kind of a reprobate. But an Atheist is closer to the truth than someone who is lead by only their imagination.

Philalethist.

Imaginations are a very nice gift of God, Helps to figure out what the Similitudes and parables are in Scripture.

God would have had a hard time creating all the creatures He has without one. He has one very good imagination. Along with the power to give life to that imaginary creature. At one time man was just part of God’s imagination.

There is a fence between an Atheist and Truth, And that fence is not being able to admit to being a believer, God says all believe, not all will admit it.

Silly is looking up into the sky, seeing something which tells you that a Child who just happens to be a promised King to the Jewish People is about to or has already been born, by something you see. Unless you have other information like the Bible to fill in the gaps.

Then there was a man who thought He stood by the empire state building, But he was so close, He just saw lot of windows and concrete above him, He was really by the sewer department. He was just TOO CLOSE to see what was really there.

Ken

Ken, have you abandoned your idea that it was the moon the Wise Men were following, or are you still working on some explanation involving curving roads and so on? (Is it possible that the one unshakable principle cracker-barrel prophets share is that they must never admit a mistake?)

And how's your reading of ISAIAH 60:19 ('The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory') coming along?

Do you still think it could suggest that the brightness of the moon was what the Wise Men saw? Or have you realised yet that it says that neither the sun nor the moon will give light - only God?

quote:

At one time man was just part of God’s imagination

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Read it again young fellow. For it is men that turns things upside down and it is very possible that the creation in your imagination is but upside down. Your similitudes are but your own imagination working against your understanding of truth.

Now try John 8:12 Then spake Jesus (Revelations 19:13) again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Ephesians 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Your writings sheds absolutely no light on anything with the exception of your own imagination.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

It's all about the word Ken, that self same word that you are stumbling over. Back to Ephesians 4:6, it's all in your head.

Newnickname.

The moon was not my idea, God chose to use that for the Sign for the Birth (rebirth) at Bethlehem. A curving road could explain how it looked like the Sign stood above the house.

If you see the unshakeable principle of cracker barrel prophets, Why ask one of them to admit anything?

Isaiah 60:19 says it is a Sign, But will not stay a Sign as far as remaining bright like it was.

This is a SIMILITUDE for Bethlehem, The Fulfillment is the day of the Cross when all prophecies are fulfilled. But the Kings lived during the Similitude, Knew the prophecies and saw them for happening at the Birth (rebirth) of the Child.

NO MORE means it was, But will not be again, So the moon would be no more for that much Brightness either, but it was.


Philalethist.

No problem, The way God created the Eye, and the brain, and all the connections, the Pictures do get turned upside down. That is the problem with using only one lens. Had God gave two lens per eye, we might not have needed someone to invent a telescope.

Maybe you should ask God about that potter’s vessel. Where the first vessel was marred. Ask God if one vessel was about 1004 B.C. and remade 1,000 years later for the second vessel?

We walk through the Darkness, But we have our lights on, So it shows what is there. Darkness means nothing to a Candle.

You missed a point. Being a Candle give light to all that are IN THE HOUSE.

Matthew 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Seeing the Light is Christ, Naturally a lot of people would not see the Light of Christ.

But you think you are the Word, Now that would cause anyone to stumble, Because Jesus is also the way, and that block is not in any way.

Ken