Listening to Christmas carols that were already being played on the radio yesterday, I was thinking about how Jesus is referred to as Emmanuel. I was wondering if this strikes anyone else as strange. Why would Isaiah have said that a virgin will give birth to a child named "Emmanuel" if his name was going to be Jesus? I'm sure this has many Christians confused, too. Can anyone explain? Just curious. ******************************************************* 11-25-06, 11:58 AM juanruiz If you read the original Hebrew you'll see Isaiah didn't say virgin. If you read the context, you'll see he isn't talking about Jesus. This is one of the more egregious hijackings of the MT writer from the OT. That the so-called prophecy says Emmanuel and believers are stuck with a guy named Jesus just makes it that much more problematic. ******************************************************* 11-25-06, 12:00 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: If you read the original Hebrew you'll see Isaiah didn't say virgin.
Okay, Juan. Just give me a couple of decades to learn Hebrew and then I'll do just that. Or, you could see what a lazy little woman I am, and just translate the original Hebrew for me and tell me what Isaiah actually said! Big Grin Wink ******************************************************* 11-25-06, 12:02 PM juanruiz Isaiah uses the word almah 'young woman', not etullah 'virgin'. ******************************************************* 11-25-06, 12:06 PM Sarai Got it! Thanks for saving me a couple of decades worth of work! Smile ******************************************************* 11-25-06, 12:19 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: If you read the original Hebrew you'll see Isaiah didn't say virgin. If you read the context, you'll see he isn't talking about Jesus. This is one of the more egregious hijackings of the MT writer from the OT. That the so-called prophecy says Emmanuel and believers are stuck with a guy named Jesus just makes it that much more problematic.
So how is it that it makes sense to Christians that Jesus is Emmanuel? Don't Christians think it is strange that Isaiah didn't just say that the Child would be named "Jesus" instead of "Emmanuel" if that is whom he was referring to? (Looking for a Christian to answer this question). ******************************************************* 11-25-06, 12:42 PM juanruiz
quote: (Looking for a Christian to answer this question).
I've read some pretty imaginative rationalizations for this. ******************************************************* 11-28-06, 09:29 AM doñadiana
quote: Originally posted by Sarai:
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: If you read the original Hebrew you'll see Isaiah didn't say virgin. If you read the context, you'll see he isn't talking about Jesus. This is one of the more egregious hijackings of the MT writer from the OT. That the so-called prophecy says Emmanuel and believers are stuck with a guy named Jesus just makes it that much more problematic.
So how is it that it makes sense to Christians that Jesus is Emmanuel? Don't Christians think it is strange that Isaiah didn't just say that the Child would be named "Jesus" instead of "Emmanuel" if that is whom he was referring to? (Looking for a Christian to answer this question).
"Emmanuel" is a Hebrew word meaning "God with us." It is used in Isaiah 7:14 to convey the idea of God's promise to save ("Jesus" means "Yahweh saves" or "Yahweh is Salvation", bless, and protect His children. In Isaiah 8:8 you will find the word used again and this time the name is bestowed on Judah as the object of God's care. Then again in 8:12 it is used again although generally translated "God is with us."
There are three view as to the meaning of who Immanuel would be:
1) Ahaz's wife and her child Hezekiah (2 Kings 18:2) The objection to this is that Hezekiah was already born.
2)The child is Isaiah´s son, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. Objections: The Hebrew word used for virgin would not be used of a woman who was already a mother(Isa. 7:3) Also the name of Isaiah's child means "Speed the Spoil, Hasten the Booty" and is contradictory.
3) Christian tradition identifies the child as the Messiah. It equates the child with the Child possessing God's titles in Isa. 9:6 and with the "Branch" of chapter 11. Matthew identifies the virgn as Mary and the Child as Jesus Christ (Matt.1:22, 23).
In Isa. 7:16 the birth seems to be imminent. It is possible that the prophecy has a partial fulfillment in the birth of Isaiah's son and a definitive fulfillment in the birth of Jesus Christ. The test of a true prophet was that his prophetic predictions of the future would come true, so every Messianic prediction had to have a near fulfillment.
The word "almah" used for virgin in Isaiah 7:14 means a young woman of marriageable age, normally a virgin. The Septuagint (the Greek translation of the old Testament made about 150 B.C.) translated the word more specifically to mean virgin (parthenos,of unknown origin; a maiden; by implication, an unmarried daughter:--virgin). Matthew did not invent this to suit himself. The Septuagint was already in use and accepted among the Jews when the New -testament was written.
quote: 1) Ahaz's wife and her child Hezekiah (2 Kings 18:2) The objection to this is that Hezekiah was already born.
Or it could refer to any young woman at the court. On another note, the Septuagint of 150 BCE was only the Torah, there was no Old Testament codified then; that didn't occur til around 100 CE. ******************************************************* 11-29-06, 12:04 PM doñadiana
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz:
quote: 1) Ahaz's wife and her child Hezekiah (2 Kings 18:2) The objection to this is that Hezekiah was already born.
Or it could refer to any young woman at the court. On another note, the Septuagint of 150 BCE was only the Torah, there was no Old Testament codified then; that didn't occur til around 100 CE.
I think that if that were an option, it would have been mentioned. At any rate, at this point in history we can only speculate about an unknown, unnamed young woman who may or may not have been the one referred to. It is more likely that it would be someone already mentioned or relative to the narrative.
It also seems that there are differing opinions as to the Greek translation of the law, how it came about and whether or not other books were involved shortly thereafter, whether it is more accurate that the Hebrew or less accurate, etc, etc. One opinion is that most likely the Greek speaking Jews of Alexandria would have wanted the books of the prophets in Greek also and Isaiah would have been an obvious choice for translation.
quote: whether it is more accurate that the Hebrew or less accurate
In regard to this I see only one answer; how can a translation be "more accurate" than the original language? I realize that was the RCC's doctrine when the Latin Vulgate came out ca 400CE, and that certain people believe the KJV is better than the original, but it's the same as saying Don Quijote is more accurate in English. ******************************************************* 11-29-06, 02:10 PM doñadiana
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz:
quote: whether it is more accurate that the Hebrew or less accurate
In regard to this I see only one answer; how can a translation be "more accurate" than the original language? I realize that was the RCC's doctrine when the Latin Vulgate came out ca 400CE, and that certain people believe the KJV is better than the original, but it's the same as saying Don Quijote is more accurate in English.
I ran into a site on the internet (Google, Septuagint) that used the argument that there must have been a Hebrew text older than the Masoretic and that therefore the LXX is more accurate and it is the Masoretic text that is flawed. I have no personal opinion on this as it is the first I have heard such a thing. I threw it in because I think it is important to realize that there is more than one opinion on this matter and it is better to keep an open mind about things such as translations that are thousands of years old.
quote: the argument that there must have been a Hebrew text older than the Masoretic and that therefore the LXX is more accurate and it is the Masoretic text that is flawed.
I've heard that argument, and it's central thesis is that the Masoretes changed the Hebrew just to make the LXX look bad. The theory smacks of some anti-Semitic thought, and lacks any sort of proof, but is rather mere speculation. ******************************************************* 12-03-06, 12:10 PM philalethist
quote: anti-Semitic
When one gets to the root of it all, or the meat of it, all will understand that it addes up to being anti-you and me. ******************************************************* 12-03-06, 01:52 PM GarColga
quote: Originally posted by doñadiana:
"Emmanuel" is a Hebrew word meaning "God with us." It is used in Isaiah 7:14 to convey the idea of God's promise to save ("Jesus" means "Yahweh saves" or "Yahweh is Salvation", bless, and protect His children. DD
I think Emmanuel is probably just a name. There are many Hebrew names containing "el" or "ya" - meaning God this or God that. Netanyahu, for instance, means "God's gift".
Where did you get the information on the meaning of "Jesus"? It doesn't sound right. ******************************************************* 12-03-06, 05:01 PM doñadiana
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz:
quote: the argument that there must have been a Hebrew text older than the Masoretic and that therefore the LXX is more accurate and it is the Masoretic text that is flawed.
I've heard that argument, and it's central thesis is that the Masoretes changed the Hebrew just to make the LXX look bad. The theory smacks of some anti-Semitic thought, and lacks any sort of proof, but is rather mere speculation.
When I went back to look for the site, I couldn't find it, but another site I found was more anti-King James Version than anti-Semetic.
quote: Originally posted by GarColga: Where did you get the information on the meaning of "Jesus"? It doesn't sound right.
From the footnotes in my Bible. It said that Jesus is a form of Joshua. ******************************************************* 04-18-07, 10:31 PM Ken1Burton First, The question on Immanuel being born of a Virgin or a young woman? I use the King James Version, 1611 for references.
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
The King James Version translated it as Virgin, But either way, It is a Sign from God, and Virgins conceiving is not Normal, And I doubt if God would use a Sign that happens thousands of times a day with a young woman conceiving not being a virgin. Even if she was BEFORE she had normal sex to conceive a Child.
Virgin at conception, Not five minutes before.
Second, Isaiah 7:14 is a Prophecy, and it concerns Jesus (Messiah if you choose).
Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
So all the Prophecies concerning the Messiah (Jesus) had to be fulfilled the day of the Cross. Which includes the sign spoken of by the PROPHET Isaiah.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Jesus just had to drink the VINEgar (Fruit of the vine, new with them in the Kingdom, and allow Himself to die) And allow Himself to die.
It is the Body of Christ that is born the day of the Cross with US in that Body. Jesus having taken away sin, Now God can be with us, Or Immanuel is for when we are joined to God through Jesus the day of the Cross.
Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
The Virgin Birth being fulfilled the day of the Cross, and Heaven and earth passing away can all be answered. But the Name Immanuel is the Body of Christ born in a place called Golgotha.
Ken ******************************************************* 04-18-07, 11:05 PM babthrower
quote: The Virgin Birth being fulfilled the day of the Cross, and Heaven and earth passing away can all be answered. But the Name Immanuel is the Body of Christ born in a place called Golgotha.
Are you saying that the word 'Immanuel' means (in Hebrew or Aramaic or some other language)"the body of Christ born in Golgotha"? ******************************************************* 04-18-07, 11:23 PM Ken1Burton Babthrower
Yes, Immanuel means the Body of Christ NOW, After sin was taken away when He died, Now it is God with us, For as long as sin was there, God could not in Truth be with us, His eyes seen as purer then to look upon Iniquity.
And it was a prophecy concerning Jesus. So it had to be fulfilled the day of the Cross. When Jesus died and the Veil was ripped, it was God with us.
Ken ******************************************************* 04-18-07, 11:41 PM Ken1Burton Babthrower
Sorry, I did not understand your question, “Immanuel” only means “God with us.” but it does not apply to the Body of Christ till He died and sin ended and the Veil is ripped which separated us from God.
“Us” is the Keyword, Not just for Jesus Himself.
Ken ******************************************************* 04-19-07, 07:32 AM juanruiz
quote: But the Name Immanuel is the Body of Christ born in a place called Golgotha.
An interesting take, but a flawed methodology to get to it. A la Jack Van Impe and company, you pull a handful of Bible verses out of context, sew them together and, voilà, QED!. This approach can get the Bible to say and mean just about anything. ******************************************************* 04-19-07, 11:45 AM babthrower But the bible says they called him "Jesus" .
23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us." 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Matthew
It doesn't say why they changed the name. Your explanation is a plausible one, but it's not scriptural. ******************************************************* 04-19-07, 12:31 PM juanruiz
quote: It doesn't say why they changed the name.
They didn't change the name. What the gospel writers had was a guy named Jesus whom they were pushing as the Messiah. A couple wanted his legitimacy upheld by Old Testament scriptures. Isaiah suppled convenient verses, if you did not supply the whole narrative context. Immanuel ceased being the specific name of a child, and was converted essentially into an epithet, since they were stuck with Jesus as a name. ******************************************************* 04-19-07, 07:08 PM philalethist Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. ******************************************************* 04-19-07, 10:57 PM Ken1Burton Juanruiz
The Concept that you can get the Bible to say anything is not reality. You can make it appear that way. But one Scriptural Truth does not contradict another Scriptural truth. All has to fit together.
Someone may make it appear truth, But if it is not, Someone else will show where the flaws are. Scriptural Geologists looking for faults are everywhere.
Before Jesus died the veil was intact. Just a Similitude for the Separation between God and man, but one that quite apparent, and it was ripped from the Top down. A little Hint on who OK’d the Sacrifice to be Sufficient.
The Prophecy concerns Jesus, and had to be fulfilled the day of the Cross. And Jesus becomes AS GOD the day of the Cross, So either way “God with Us.” applies there.
Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Because Jesus is dead part of the day, He is also seen as the Angel of the Lord.
Now, Scripturally take that apart. But know, there is a lot more where that came from. Every Scriptural difference is worth investigating, So we know the Truth, Know why it is the Truth, and are able to show where other possibilities only appear to show it as error.
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
“And shall call His Name Immanuel.” OK, Who will call His Name Immanuel? NOTE: It does not say He will be NAMED Immanuel at Birth, But will call His NAME. Immanuel. I call Jesus Immanuel with no problem. I call His Name Lord, I call His Name Master, I call His Name, Rabbi. I call His Name, The Son of God. And there are many other Names, I can call His Name.
So we call His Name, “God with Us.” When we mention “Jesus”.
God poured out upon the Nation of Israel the Spirit of deep sleep, that Alarm clock is about to go off, and the Jewish People will look upon Him whom they have pierced, But this time by searching the Scriptures with a fine tooth comb. And seeing what they did not see before, Their promised Messiah.
God uses Similitudes (Hosea 12:10), And in case this is one of them. 2007 now, Give it 22 more years.
Joshua 3:3 And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it. 4 Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore.
They saw the Ark and the Levites or Priests bearing it up at a place called Golgotha. Stay back 2,000 cubits or years. The Cross was in 29 A.D. (Our calendar is four years off) So in 2029 A.D. Follow the Ark Israel. And it might be them who call His Name Immanuel.
As far as the Gospel writers having a Guy named Jesus who they were pushing for the Messiah, So was Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Daniel, along with the rest of the old Testament Prophets. Every jot and tittle. And it is all for ONE DAY. One 24 Hour day.
Some of those Scriptural Geologists work for God. To find faults in challenges to God’s truths.
Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
Only the day of the Cross when God bindeth up the Breach of His people fits Isaiah 30:26. Out of all the Millions of days to choose from.
Made as a week, God doubles twice to establish His words as seen in Genesis 41:32 as Pharaoh’s dream was doubled twice.
So take the day, and make it as three pictures. Make the First as 4 6-hour periods as 4 beasts with 6-wings, Take the Second as 2 12-hour periods, liken them to 2 witnesses, Take the third as 1 24-hour period and liken that to 24 Elders.
4 Beasts with 6-wings is New Testament in Revelation, But Ezekiel saw it also, A Calf and a Ox have the same face.
Revelation 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Ezekiel 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.
Same Vision, But through different eyes. God multiplies Visions (Hosea 12:10)
Sunset to Midnight, Jesus as the Lion, Saying who He is, What He will do, All the Sevens in Revelation is the day as the 7 time periods, seen as 3 pictures also seen as days, 10 days total. He shall have Tribulation 10 days.
White horse is the First seal, Clouds seen as sin in Isaiah 44:22. So Jesus taking sins then is the White horse coming in Clouds. Jesus said what He would do, Not He has to go and do it. So the Rider goes forth conquering and to conquer (Sin, death, and hell have to be defeated)
First angel sounds, Fire (God’s word in Jeremiah 23:29) as Jesus pours out God’s word. Hail is Judas greeting Jesus “Hail Master” and Mingled with blood is Peter cuts off the ear.
Sunset to Midnight, “Let there be Light.” I am the True Vine, I am the Good Shepherd, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, In My Father’s House are many Mansions. Etc, etc as Jesus pours out the LIGHT.
The Lamb is slain from the Foundation of the World, and I feel the Earth tremble. The Beginning is the day of the Cross, Begins the New World. Old world had no beginning, it ended the day of the Cross, and the New world has no end.
Jesus fulfilled a lot of prophecies this world has yet to see. God liked to keep secrets. And if no one even knew many of the Prophecies, Who could have set it up? Except God that is.
Sunset to Midnight is Old Heaven, Midnight to Sunrise is Old Earth, Heaven and Earth flee from His Face seen as the Face of a Man on the third beast with 6-wings which is Sunrise to noon or New Earth. New Heaven is Noon to Sunset.
Jesus took all sin, So the Angels gather all things which offend. They came for Jesus, And He is also the Elect, So they gather from one end of Heaven to the Other, from one end of the earth to the Other. All the day of the Cross.
Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
There are 144 with Judas, they form a wall around Jesus, Ezekiel said in that day every wall would fall to the Ground. (Ezekiel 38:20) and because they are likened to a wall, When Jesus told them “I am He.” they went backwards and fell to the Ground.
Adding the Cubit moves them to Angel status, they are the Angels given Charge over Jesus, they are the angels who gather all things which offend. Etc.
Prophecies not even seen:
19 But mine enemies are lively, and they are strong: and they that hate me wrongfully are multiplied.
They qualify to be Multiplied, And Deuteronomy 1:11 does that:
Deuteronomy 1:11 (The LORD God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are , and bless you, as he hath promised you!)
Now there are 144,000 with Jesus, Seen as Virgins in Revelation chapter 14. Seen as Men travailing with Child by Jeremiah :
Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Paleness? Like the Pale Horse, Which is the Fourth seal in Revelation, or Noon to Sunset, Death followed by hell as Jesus died and descended into hell.
Fourth is also the MIDST of the Week, When Daniel saw the Daily Sacrifice end, and Jesus is Who ended the Daily Sacrifice at Golgotha.
Daniel’s vision of the Evening and Morning were for many days, in this case as 70 weeks, in the Case of the Creations story, the Evening and Morning were the First day, and it was also the Second day, and it was also the Third day.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
in “THE DAY”
Now, Make the Bible say what every you want, The Scriptures are more then sufficient to show they are truth, what that truth is, That there is a God by His ability to show the events long before they happen, and that Jesus is whom He sent to fulfill them.
Midnight to sunrise is the Second day, Spiritually dead because of sin, Second physical a future similitude for what has already been fulfilled the day of the Cross. Third day is Sunrise to noon, “With His stripes we are healed.” or now Spiritually risen from the Dead, or Resurrected, So the third physical day is a Future similitude for what was fulfilled the day of the Cross.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. 29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Declaring the End from the Beginning in Isaiah 46:10 is “It is Finished.” Seen at Armageddon as “It is Done.” then the Earthquake seen at Both, The Holy City divided into 3 parts is seeing the day as 3 pictures again in Revelation.
So Juanruit, What will YOU DO with this Man who is Called Jesus?
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Ken ******************************************************* 04-20-07, 01:47 PM juanruiz
quote: Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
“And shall call His Name Immanuel.” OK, Who will call His Name Immanuel? NOTE: It does not say He will be NAMED Immanuel at Birth, But will call His NAME. Immanuel. I call Jesus Immanuel with no problem. I call His Name Lord, I call His Name Master, I call His Name, Rabbi. I call His Name, The Son of God. And there are many other Names, I can call His Name.
Just as an example of what I alluded to above. First, produce the whole narrative context of that part of Isaiah. By which I mean, whom was Isaiah speaking to there and what was the situation? Second, you are splitting hairs here using an English translation to make your point. Isaiah was not written in English, but Biblical Hebrew, where "call his name" and "name him" are synonymous.
For previous discussions on this board about the fallacy of attempting to make exegetic points on the Bible by employing English translations, consult other threads, particularly those initiated by tsaeb. ******************************************************* 04-20-07, 06:57 PM Ken1Burton Juanruit.
Biblical Hebrew? How old is the person who has told you what the correct meaning of this is? I hope they are at least 2400 years old.(Much better if they are 4,000 years old and even sone Hebrew words must have changed meanings between Genesis and Malachi. They might know what Biblical Hebrew meant, The Rest of mankind guesses. Might be educational guesses, But still guesses.
And God speaks in Similitudes, Through Jesus in Parables, and Hides Mysteries. So take Strong and all the education Scholars and ask one question.
How long is God speaking of? In this verse:
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
If your educated in the Biblical Hebrew say more then one 24 hour day, they guessed wrong. Tell then the pointed hat on the stool in the Back Corner belongs to them. Because they might have studied Biblical Hebrew but the Holy Spirit can teach us in Modern day English.
And that is who we are suppose to use for our correct answers. He knows what the meanings are, He knows what the Mysteries are, He know personally Who inspired the Scriptures.
God is Alive, Jesus is Alive, the Holy Spirit is alive and who should we really be looking to? You can consider anyone, But don’t forget Who has the right answer. Faith is that they are there for us to ask things of. Getting the correct answer, and God showing it is the correct answer turns Faith into Sight.
On a Christian Forum many believe we need to know Ancient Hebrew, and the Greek, to have the correct answers. Know God.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
It is not a case of us finding, But God giving. For a person can have nothing, except it be given him from above, and God knows to whom you are seeking the answers from. From God or from the knowledge of men.
You want me to seek answers from men? That is not Scriptural.
Psalms 87:4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there. 5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. 6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
Seems to me the Body of Christ the day of the Cross. With us in that Body was born at Zion:
Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
That did not come from a study of Biblical Hebrew or knowing Greek, It came from knowing God. The believers has had that for almost 2,000 years.
Ken ******************************************************* 04-21-07, 10:49 AM philalethist
quote: Juanruit.
Biblical Hebrew? How old is the person who has told you what the correct meaning of this is? I hope they are at least 2400 years old.(Much better if they are 4,000 years old and even sone Hebrew words must have changed meanings between Genesis and Malachi. They might know what Biblical Hebrew meant, The Rest of mankind guesses. Might be educational guesses, But still guesses.
And God speaks in Similitudes, Through Jesus in Parables, and Hides Mysteries. So take Strong and all the education Scholars and ask one question.
How long is God speaking of? In this verse:
Hebrews4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
With this I would like to add that we all concider Juan to be a gentleman and a scollar.
Look at the number of his posts and compare.
1 Corinthians 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
Before one questions another mans knowledge he should know who God is. For indeed some in thinking that they know the truth are very far from it. Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: ******************************************************* 04-21-07, 11:26 AM babthrower When I encounter reams of this sort of quibbling about what dead languages which never had a dictionary in the first place, and had tiny vocabularies so that one word might have a root meaning, but also had to do service for many more concepts for which that word might have a metaphorical reference, it confirms my atheism.
No rational being, god or man, would allow its followers to wallow in ignorance when a few words of clarification would settle such issues.
Instead we see the emergence or numberless babbling sects, each proclaiming itself to be the god's own truth. Eek ******************************************************* 04-21-07, 01:00 PM juanruiz
quote: With this I would like to add that we all concider Juan to be a gentleman and a scollar.
Why thank you, phil. That is very kind. As for how scriptures have been used by many to support their particular interpretation of Christianity, I have numerous posts, so I really have nothing more to say here on the subject. ******************************************************* 04-21-07, 03:08 PM Ken1Burton Philalethist.
Hebrews 4:7 could be speaking of when those in the Grave would hear His voice. It would be a good day not to harden hearts.
As far as the “We all consider.” I will take that as how you feel. And allow others to speak for themselves.
The Number of posts means little, What is in them is the important thing to consider.
As I come across people’s post, I get a general idea of where they are coming from.
Wording like:
quote: For previous discussions on this board about the fallacy of attempting to make exegetic points on the Bible by employing English translations, consult other threads, particularly those initiated by tsaeb
Are Cute. Like if you do not know the language as I know it, Don’t talk.
I do not get intimidated by those knowing Biblical Hebrew (as if any man on earth does) or how have gone to Seminaries or any place other to study.
Open Forums means we all get to voice our opinions and share as much support for them as possible, So the King James Version in English is what I use, Someone who claims that is not sufficient for reference, Can deal with that themselves.
There was no requirement for knowing Hebrew, Greek, or believing you know what they really meant when spoken, that I saw when I registered for being a member here. Nor was this thread listed as requiring that knowledge to post.
Babthrower.
You have a point about God not wanting His followers to wallow in Ignorance (unless that is their choice to so do). I changed that to my view, or there is a God, and How He feels based on your words which questioned how a god would feel.
But the Bible is not all God gave, He also interacts with mankind as we search out the meanings. I see my Bible coming with a Holy Spirit Tutor, Whom I have to open my heart to, and study what is the meanings of those words. God just made it a lot easier by having the text to reference many concepts, and providing a teacher to go with it.
If I am not really searching, I assume I would not accept too much of what was found anyway.
God does screen out those who are not really searching, We will seek Him and find Him when we search for Him with our whole heart.
I liken searching with our whole heart to having a toddler drift away while at the Mall, How hard would you search?
All are saved by grace. So search or not, God’s love is still there. If we desire Him and want to know Him here on earth, He is there to help up, If not, we come at Death of these earthly bodies.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
God was not irresponsible in putting our salvation in our own hands.
The Scriptures are worded to do Good, and appears to have rewards for doing Good, and Punishments for not being good. But they are guidelines for mankind to live by. Grace is sufficient for those who fall short (all fall short) or do not even care to be nice.
God’s grace is also sufficient for Numberless babbling sects. Errors of Doctrine, etc. Fountains of living water often Babble.
Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
And Paul the “Babbler” was schooled.
Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Unlearned and Ignorant men. Do you think God has a lesson there somewhere?, of how He works?
People can proclaim any thing they want, and others can be as gullible as they want. But the Jewish Holy Scriptures were around, and many copies of the Books existed before Jesus showed up in a manger in Bethlehem.
The Jewish Nation as a whole not accepting Jesus as the promised Messiah makes them a good witness to the fact the Scriptures existed then, and are not changed to fit Jesus. It is the Old Testament prophecies which shows there is a God by His ability to put it all together, and that Jesus is the One He sent.
Ken ******************************************************* 04-22-07, 01:34 AM tsaeb
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: For previous discussions on this board about the fallacy of attempting to make exegetic points on the Bible by employing English translations, consult other threads, particularly those initiated by tsaeb.
juanruiz: One fallacy is your argument, which happens to jump to a false conclusion. The King James Version of the Bible is in the English tongue, which I interpret, using the gift of interpretation of tongues and other spiritual gifts, into accurate English interpretations. As for Ken1Burton's views, his insistence on monkeying around with time makes him, according to Deuteronomy, a discerner of times, which Deuteronomy goes on to call an abomination. ******************************************************* 04-22-07, 06:34 AM philalethist [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ken1Burton: Philalethist.
Hebrews 4:7 could be speaking of when those in the Grave would hear His voice. It would be a good day not to harden hearts.
{Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.}
As far as the “We all consider.” I will take that as how you feel. And allow others to speak for themselves.
The Number of posts means little, What is in them is the important thing to consider.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
In John 1:1 a precept is established. From that point many fall backward and are snared and taken. ******************************************************* 04-22-07, 08:38 AM juanruiz
quote: The King James Version of the Bible is in the English tongue, which I interpret, using the gift of interpretation of tongues and other spiritual gifts, into accurate English interpretations
That's fine by me. I've given up responding to every Christian's take on the Bible. ******************************************************* 04-22-07, 09:32 AM Ken1Burton Tsaeb.
Interpretation of tongues for an accurate interpretation of the English Language? Cute.
Tongues, 4 types all Scriptural.
1. Jesus said these signs would follow all believers, They would speak with new tongues (Changed speech as we talk of the Love of God and share Christ, happens to all believers)
2. Tongues as at Pentecost, Holy Spirit translating the Disciples speaking in Galilean to the language of each different persons birth being heard in their ears, This type is not seen today.
3. Tongues as Paul spoke, Speaking over a person’s head, When most first start to read Paul’s writings, It is very hard to comprehend, So this type is the one needing an Interpreter using easier words.
4. Gift of Tongues, a SIGN to an UNBELIEVER, Sorry Pentecostal people. A believer can not bear witness you are Holy Spirit filled by hearing you speak in tongues. The Unbeliever it is a Sign to is themselves, They did not think they are Holy Spirit Filled, so God gives them a sign so they know for sure.
Monkey around with Time? No, I am Serious about Time.
Time=Creation story in 3975 B.C. (Dates from Reese Chronological Bible) to the Baptism in 25 A.D. (Our Calendar is four years off) “At the Fullness of Time, God sent forth His Son, made of a Woman.”
Times is the day of the Cross, seen as 2,000 years in Psalms 90:4 and Ecclesiastes 6:6.
Half a time in Revelation which is from the Cross in 29 A.D. to 2029 A.D. when the Woman sees the Face of the Serpent. (Now who can Israel not see?) Seen as the Dividing of time in Daniel chapter 7. When the Little Horn (Peter or Church age) was given to have in his hand)
Joshua 3:3 And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it. 4 Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore.
Jesus is the Ark, The Priests or Levites bearing Him up the day of the Cross in 29 A.D. Stay back 2,000 cubits or Years, Then Follow in 2029 A.D. when Israel will Look upon Him whom they have pierces through the Scripture and see Jesus is the Messiah.
NOTE. I am not saying what people call a Second Coming physically for Jesus.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
The River is measured in Ezekiel’s temple vision. At the 4,000 cubit measurement or 2029 A.D. the waters flow into the Sea and the Sea is healed, or Israel will see Jesus is the Messiah, then where ever the waters go, they will be healed. Most of the World will convert and follow Christ, a few holdouts left so we do not put our Bibles away.
Ezekiel 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. 9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. 10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. 11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
Fishers of Men, You nets are not big enough, way to small. As the fish of the Great Sea, Exceeding many.
You think God calls me an abomination? No problem at all, I do not take it personal, When someone says a person said something about me, I usually tell they to add to it, spice it up more, and pass it on.
After all, That is an easy way to get blessed.
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you , and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Imagine a God with love so great, He can love an Abomination. He might be a little upset for me coming up behind Him and touching Him with Super glue on my hands. We spend a lot of time together now. And a Super glue which bonds for Eternity, The Glue is Jesus Christ.
The Bible has been translated into many languages. Bible Translators can use a person like you. After all, with the Gift of Interpretation which works with Languages, You can pick up a page written in French, German, etc, and give the Interpretation immediately. You should get in touch with them, They still need a few more books written to different people groups, and with YOUR GIFT. They can have God’s word and know His love right away.
Philalethist.
God is the God of the Living.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
God speaks through Jesus in Parables. Those who do not know God as Spiritually dead, and they are as graves which appear not, To some anyway.
And the Part of God of Abraham, God of Isaac, That is for Jesus the day of the Cross, The day is taken out of time, the name of the day is “For ever” and the first picture as 4 6-hour periods is:
1=Sunset to Midnight “Lord God of our Father’s” Jesus made as Lord God. 2=Midnight to Sunrise. “God of Abraham”, Horror of great darkness as Jesus takes sins upon Himself. 3=Sunrise to noon. “God of Isaac.” 4=Noon to Sunset, “God of Jacob.” Pale Horse, Death followed by hell as Jesus died and descended into hell.
Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jacob is noon to Sunset, Wrestles with a man, or with Self preservation, He allows Himself to die, then Esau comes, Esau is Edom, seen as a desolate wilderness, or the time Jesus was dead, God hated Esau or the time Jesus was dead, Over Edom will I cast off My Shoe, We are on Holy Ground, Jesus took away sin, Get rid of the shoes.
Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
THIS IS MY NAME “FOR EVER” or the day of the Cross, “For ever and ever” is the day of the Cross and everlasting future.
When God has the Snare, and to be taken is to be consumed into the Body of Christ, It is not a bad deal.
The 144 with Judas seen as a wall in Revelation 21:17. Added the Cubit or reached angel status. Came to take Jesus captive, Ezekiel said in that day every wall would fall to the ground, When Jesus said “I am He.” they went backwards and fell to the Ground.
He took Captivity Captive. They belongs to Jesus at that point. Seen as the 144,000 in Revelation Chapter 14. Seen as the First fruits unto God. So Abel or the Jewish nation offers the Lamb, Cain offers the First fruits. Cain slays His Brother. “No man cometh unto the Father, But by Me.” so they are spiritually dead.
The 144 seen as the Goats, His Battle horse in Zechariah 10:3/6. Seen as if He had not cast them off. Goats seen as hairs in Song of Solomon 4:1. So all the Hairs of His Head are numbered. The Hairs divided or broken into 3 lots, So a third of the Stars of heaven (likened to the seed of Abraham) are cast down, all in the three pictures.
The Head of Christ is God, Jesus has no were to rest His Head, Till He takes away sin the day of the Cross, and in the Seventh day, God rested, or the Head of Christ now has a place of rest, Here with mankind, no separation between us.
Many are called=Heathens, Few are Choosen=Jewish Together makes 100%
Amos 9:12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
Ken
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 2241 | Location: In between | Registered: 06-03-02
Tsaeb says: "... [JR's]] argument ... happens to jump to a false conclusion."
JR had said: "... the fallacy of attempting to make exegetic points on the Bible by employing English translations ..."
The explanations JR refers to, I think, are those in which you study the attributes of printed words. The words are written in King James' English, as it was used in the 17th century. (Okay, some of it was from a slightly earlier period. But it was post-mediaeval.)
You believe these secret messages have been sent to you, hidden in these printed English words, so that you can use the secrets therein from which to prophecy: to make predictions about future events, or to reveal the Jew's tribal god's will and purpose.
You must see that there is a logical problem here. The original words, straight from Jehovah to the Jewish prophets, were recorded in Hebrew or Aramaic. We assume that Jehovah spoke to the prophets in that tongue; even if not, the prophets used those languages. The scribes recorded the prophets' words in written form. They did not use King James' English.
The scriptures have been translated into every human tongue. What if you looked at a text that had been translated from Aramaic into, say, Urdu? Still Jehovah's words; but they would appear on paper to be quite different from the same text translated into English.
So how could you divine Jehovah's secret messages from the appearance of 17th century English words?
[We will leave the main question, which is why would Jehovah wait three thousand years for your arrival on earth to reveal aspects of his message to the Jews as first revealed to Moses and other Jewish prophets, in order for you to reveal this previously withheld information to an eagerly awaiting world? Well, not exactly eagerly. Well, actually more like an indifferent world. One might even say a world that keeps yelling "Stop , Tsaeb! Enough, already! Give it a rest!"
But you see the point.] ************************************************************** 04-22-07, 01:00 PM juanruiz The methodology used here is the equivalent of reading Shakespeare's plays in Italian translation, culling out isolated lines, and then proclaiming the playwright was: a homosexual or an atheist or a pederast or a capitalist or...whatever. ************************************************************** 04-22-07, 02:18 PM Ken1Burton Babthrower
God has a Timetable, And Israel is about to awaken out of the deep sleep of Isaiah 29:10/12. Israel seeing Jesus is the Messiah is likened to the waters covering the sea. Which happens in 2029 A.D.
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
I have wondered if God will do the Physical also. Global Warming should raise the water level, and at some point, The Dead Sea should be flooded. They have tried to build a water channel, or at least have pondered it to raise the Dead sea to former levels.
It now evaporates faster then water flows into it.
God is giving Christianity a chance to get it right. Church age ends in 2029 A.D.
This will be proceeded by seven years of burning weapons or every argument against Jesus being the Messiah will be burnt up by God’s word like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29, Then seven months of burying the bones or putting all the prophecies in the Correct order.
Ken ************************************************************** 04-22-07, 02:36 PM juanruiz
quote: Church age ends in 2029 A.D.
Yeah, and the Millerites said 1832, the JWs said 1914, and Van Impe says 2017, and Agee says any time, and Hinn says "Send me your money." And people have been saying the Apocalypse is soon since Paul. ************************************************************** 04-22-07, 03:46 PM babthrower Yes, it's like the thing about 'wars and rumors of wars'. I had a very intense couple come to my door once, and fix me with their burning gaze, and say very dramatically, "It is the end time. It is written that in the last days, there shall be wars and rumors of wars..." and I of course made the very obvious statement that there had only been a three-year period in human history when there had been no wars and rumors of wars. Roll Eyes ************************************************************** 04-22-07, 06:23 PM GarColga
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton:
God has a Timetable
I think your god needs a new watch! Does Jesus realize he should have returned about 2,000 years ago?
That boy is grounded!. ************************************************************** 04-23-07, 12:44 AM tsaeb
quote: 3. Tongues as Paul spoke, Speaking over a person’s head, When most first start to read Paul’s writings, It is very hard to comprehend, So this type is the one needing an Interpreter using easier words.
You just identified the purpose of my writing prophecy books: to increase true interpretation.
(Our Calendar is four years off) Times is the day of the Cross, seen as 2,000 years in Psalms 90:4 and Ecclesiastes 6:6.
I agree about the four years but not about the rest.
Jesus is the Ark, The Priests or Levites bearing Him up the day of the Cross in 29 A.D. Stay back 2,000 cubits or Years, Then Follow in 2029 A.D. when Israel will Look upon Him whom they have pierces through the Scripture and see Jesus is the Messiah.
NOTE. I am not saying what people call a Second Coming physically for Jesus.
Pray tell, of what are you writing? I hope about a vision on paper as a design . . . repeated, of course.
You think God calls me an abomination? No problem at all, I do not take it personal, When someone says a person said something about me, I usually tell they to add to it, spice it up more, and pass it on.
I already prayed that whoever says something to me or about me adversely or does something against me adversely, God will turn it all into blessings.
Imagine a God with love so great, He can love an Abomination.
Eh, just one of the things I love and trust about Him. . . .
The Bible has been translated into many languages. Bible Translators can use a person like you. After all, with the Gift of Interpretation which works with Languages, You can pick up a page written in French, German, etc, and give the Interpretation immediately. You should get in touch with them, They still need a few more books written to different people groups, and with YOUR GIFT. They can have God’s word and know His love right away.
No, you didn't. God is the one who does the interpreting through me and who tells me what to interpret in the first place. ************************************************************** 04-23-07, 01:09 AM tsaeb
quote: Originally posted by babthrower: You must see that there is a logical problem here. The original words, straight from Jehovah to the Jewish prophets, were recorded in Hebrew or Aramaic. We assume that Jehovah spoke to the prophets in that tongue; even if not, the prophets used those languages. The scribes recorded the prophets' words in written form. They did not use King James' English.
The scriptures have been translated into every human tongue. What if you looked at a text that had been translated from Aramaic into, say, Urdu? Still Jehovah's words; but they would appear on paper to be quite different from the same text translated into English.
babthrower: I am not sure what juanruiz meant, and maybe he did or did not mean what you mean. Anyway, my point is that the scriptures were translated into the English tongue, which I am clarifying, again in English.
You pose another take on newnickname's objection that God would wait so long and pick only interpretations in English to be made. You add that I should try my hand in another language's translation, perhaps a French or a Spanish translation, since I can read a few words of those languages. Interestingly, God has not so led me. Yet, to date, I did get some French and Spanish interpretations. Read my next (scary) post about giving it a rest. ************************************************************** 04-23-07, 01:21 AM tsaeb
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton: God has a Timetable, And Israel is about to awaken out of the deep sleep of Isaiah 29:10/12. Israel seeing Jesus is the Messiah is likened to the waters covering the sea. Which happens in 2029 A.D.
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
I think that this phenomenon will happen twice. You are more likely seeing the first event, but based on the surrounding verses in Isaiah 11, the second event is intended. How do you come to 2029 A.D.?
I have wondered if God will do the Physical also. Global Warming should raise the water level, and at some point, The Dead Sea should be flooded. They have tried to build a water channel, or at least have pondered it to raise the Dead sea to former levels.
Are you saying that who will know and present the Isaiah prophetic interpretation will also know and present the physics interpretation?
Church age ends in 2029 A.D.
This will be proceeded by seven years of burning weapons or every argument against Jesus being the Messiah will be burnt up by God’s word like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29, Then seven months of burying the bones or putting all the prophecies in the Correct order.
If the church age were to end in 2029 A.D., it would do so after the first event of the Isaiah prophetic interpretation. So when do you think that prophecy will make its biggest impact, its peak year? ************************************************************** 04-23-07, 02:43 AM Ken1Burton Juanruiz
Jeremiah was a Prophet. There were a lot of prophets then, He was right. And I am not a prophet, I am showing what the Prophets meant. Time, Times and the half or dividing of time has meaning, and God does nothing without showing it first.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Just look to the Prophets or Scripture for God’s secrets.
Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
We have been made Kings and Priests because we are in the Body of Christ which is King and Priest.
You said “And people have been saying the Apocalypse is soon since Paul.”
And someone else said the Book of Revelation is the day of the Cross. Don’t tell anyone, It is a SECRET.
Babthrower.
Three years with no wars or rumors of wars? Did that start with rain for 40 days and nights?
GarColga.
Make you a Deal, I will buy God a watch, If you will buy glasses.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Kingdom cometh not with Observation, the Kingdom is within us. Don’t use the Glasses to look for Jesus coming, Look at Scripture to see why you would think He is? John 14:19 is in the Bible, Isn’t it? Or did God just paste it in mine?
Tsaeb.
Prophecy books? Keep writing. Good market for them. Even the ones which do not come true. I liked those written of Y2K when that had already come in 1996.
I am just saying in 2029 A.D. Israel will awaken out of that deep sleep of Isaiah 29:10/12 and will see Jesus as He is in Scripture, And they will lead the World to see Him correctly.
I guess we will have to have those people groups who do not have the Scriptures in their own language wait awhile. Good thing God’s grace is sufficient.
“Whose Name ALONE is Jehovah.” That Name applied to Jesus ALONE on the Cross, He is not ALONE any more. That is when He is the “Lord our provider.” Etc.
All prophecy was fulfilled the day of the Cross, 2029 A.D. is a future similitude for that which has already been fulfilled, They already looked on Him whom they have pierced, This is just doing it different, Scripturally seeing Jesus is the Messiah.
The Nation of Israel as a whole will have most of the Prophecies well knows. They will have them for the day of the Cross, And they will have them correct.
If the dead sea is physically healed in 2029 A.D. It happens, I just wondered if He might do it then.
God said to stay back ABOUT 2,000 cubits, But I would say 2029 A.D. will be when the Nation of Israel accepts Jesus, Either way with 7 years of deep searching before, it will be seen they are coming to that point.
As far as Christianity, It is just God working with Israel, I assume many Christians will follow Jesus as the Jewish Nation shows He is. And it is not what Christianity sees.
So it will be a dying off of the Christian Churches as we know them, at least for the Doctrine part.
Ken ************************************************************** 04-23-07, 08:16 AM juanruiz
quote: 2029 A.D
I can't help but come to the conclusion that you arrive at this mystical date in the belief that the crucifixion took place in 29 CE. Problem is, even if tradition says Jesus was 33 when he died, the only two gospels which might offer a clue as to the year of his birth disagree. Matthew gives the period of Herod's reign. He died in 4 BCE. Luke says it was during the Census (6 CE). ************************************************************** 04-23-07, 08:46 AM babthrower
quote: Three years with no wars or rumors of wars? Did that start with rain for 40 days and nights?
Yes, exactly. The time in the ark and the time shortly after when they set foot on land and each little family picked out its favorite spot for its farm. It was just about then that the trouble started. Mad ************************************************************** 04-23-07, 09:46 AM bik74 Matthew 24 36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.
007.187 They ask thee about the (final) Hour - when will be its appointed time? Say: "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord (alone): None but He can reveal as to when it will occur. Heavy were its burden through the heavens and the earth. Only, all of a sudden will it come to you." They ask thee as if thou Wert eager in search thereof: Say: "The knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone), but most men know not."
033.063 Men ask thee concerning the Hour: Say, "The knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone)": and what will make thee understand?- perchance the Hour is nigh!
042.018 Only those wish to hasten it who believe not in it: those who believe hold it in awe, and know that it is the Truth. Behold, verily those that dispute concerning the Hour are far astray. ************************************************************** 04-23-07, 04:54 PM Ken1Burton Juanruiz.
We have no way of knowing exactly what the year is, unless God himself reveals it. I list 29 A.D. as the date, I also list I use the Reese Chronological Bible for dates. So I will stick to 29 A.D. as the time of the Cross, and 2029 A.D. as the time Israel sees Jesus is the Messiah based on those dates being correct.
How close it is to correct. Who knows? But either way, If it is found to be 5 years sooner, Then the dates would all move five years back.
Bik74.
Matthew chapter 24 is about knowing when End times would happen, I know the date for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor, because it already happened, I know when End times was, Good Friday, 29 A.D.
So knowing when they saw the Ark and the Levites bearing it up at Calvary, I know the 2,000 cubits is years to stay back, So 2029 A.D. is when Israel sees Jesus is the Messiah through Scripture.
God does nothing without showing it first.
I like that “perchance the Hour is Nign!”,
And Perchance the Hour is long PAST.
Ken ************************************************************** 04-24-07, 03:20 AM tsaeb I thought that the crucifixion is accepted as having occurred in 33 A.D. and that only Jesus' birth is in dispute. Hence only Jesus' age at his crucifixion, not the year of the crucifixion, would change. ************************************************************** 04-24-07, 07:35 AM juanruiz
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb: I thought that the crucifixion is accepted as having occurred in 33 A.D. and that only Jesus' birth is in dispute. Hence only Jesus' age at his crucifixion, not the year of the crucifixion, would change.
It's all speculation. The age at death is the product of tradition, and seems too conveniently symbolic to me. MT's dating gives us a rough terminus, but is still too vague. LK seems to be more precise, since we know when the census occurred. However, Galileleans were not subject to the census, so Joseph would never have gone to Bethlehem. ************************************************************** 04-24-07, 09:46 AM babthrower There's also the 'star in the east' speculation. there was a comet in 4 B.C. apparently. That means the Magi would have found Jesus four years before he was born.
By the way, I've always wondered about the Magi story. They were Persians, Zoroastrians, at any rate pagans, yet the testament seems to give them credit for the ability to correctly interpret heavenly messages. How come? ************************************************************** 04-24-07, 12:29 PM juanruiz The idea of a star or some other astronomic phenomenon heralding the birth of a king or god was not unusual, Alexander the Great is but one example. As for the Magi, Brown suggests their appearance in MT was influenced by Balaam in Numbers 22-24. ************************************************************** 04-24-07, 01:18 PM Ken1Burton Tsaeb.
John the Baptist was of the House of Levi, So he would have started at age 30 as the law required. Jesus was at least 6 months younger, He also would have started at age 30. Coming to John just after John had started Baptizing unto repentance.
Jesus was carried by the Spirit into the Wilderness just after being Baptized (He was preparing for rendering to man His righteousness in Job 33:26. Doing that we needed, Not what He did not need.
Revelation looks at the day of the Cross, this is as a house built and the name is the Wilderness, So Jesus is given the Revelations, to show unto His Servants, Things which must shortly come to pass, Then given 42 Months to Continue.
The Spirit carried Jesus back and Jesus spend 42 Months or three and a half years teaching His servant the Apostles and disciples, What mush shortly come to pass, or fulfilling all the Prophecies the day of the Cross.
A similitude for this is when Elisha was just given power from God. Then going to Bethel, Children came out and cried unto him, “Go up ye bald head.” and He turned around and cursed them in the name of the Lord, and two she bears came out of the woods, and tore up 42 of them.
The Similitude is Jesus when He started His earthly Ministry after being Baptized did not “Go Up” and reign as King, putting the Romans under Him, Instead He rejected the power He had to reign, and ministered for 42 months, causing the Children of Israel not to see He was the Christ, and as cursed, by not seeing Jesus is the Christ.
So if the date of 4 B.C. is correct for when He is laid in a manger in Bethlehem, then 29 A.D. should be correct for the time of death on the Cross.
There would be a year “0" between 1 B.C. and 1 A.D. So the thirty three and a half years would have put Him into 29 A.D.
There are problems on how we do the Math on age. We really start getting older at Conception, And around 3 months after Birth we are ONE year old, and Start our Second year as the first has been completed. But the way mankind adds, thirty three and a half years.
Babthrower.
They were Bible Students, That is how then knew what the Star was for, and a star is a Sign, and they would have seen the Sign or Star to be the Brightness of the Moon.
And if you are traveling towards a House. And the road towards that house is at the correct angle to your speed, It could well look like the Star or Moon is standing right over the House. Especially if the House was located upon a hill.
God promised David He would raise up his son to be the Messiah: They knew this.
2-Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
The Children David already has do not meet the requirement of “Shall proceed.” and Solomon will not meet the requirement of God will raise Him up after David was dead, as Solomon became King while David was still alive.
After the promise, David conceived a son “Is HE still alive?” by Uriah’s wife Bathsheba. The next son seen after the Promise.
God sends David a Parable about taking Bathsheba to prepare for the Wayfaring man whom has come unto him. The Promise of the Messiah is what has come unto David.
Jeremiah 14:8 O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?
2-Samuel 12:1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. 2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: 3 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. 4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
Thou Son of David, And Bathsheba.
The Child dies 7 days after Birth, God had stricken the Child and He was sick. God’s law in Deuteronomy says a Child is not to be put to death for the sin of a Parent, The Child dies because He is seen as the First begotten of the Dead as a PRINCE in Revelation 1:5, and Jesus went to the Cross as a King seen in Psalms 2:6/7
All of King David’s sons were a Prince.
The law of a Child outside wedlock says He can not enter the Congregation till the tenth generation, God uses a 100 year Generation in the Children being in Egypt 400 years or 4 generations.
The Child was born (all dates I use are from “Reese Chronological Bible) in 1004 B.C., 100 years or ten generations later, A Child is laid in a manger at Bethlehem, Right on Schedule in 4 B.C.
The Wise Bible students knew the Promise, Knew it was the Child outside wedlock, Knew the law required the 1,000 year wait, The Child was with God, So He who He foreknew, He did predestine to conform to the Image of His Son, Born of a Virgin, Born at Bethlehem, Born in 4 B.C.
Mary does not have to be of the House of David, The Child does.
Isaiah 60:22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
Next verse in Scripture starts Chapter 61
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
And we know who this is talking about:
Now to go back to the Start of Isaiah Chapter 60: Where the Wise Bible Students who just happen (at least two of them) to be KINGS. Knew it was the Coming of the King of the Jews, What they were to come on, and what to bring. And it starts with the Word “Arise” which is from the dead, As the Child was with God for the 1,000 years, He comes down from Heaven.
Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
“We three Kings from orient are, Bearing gifts we travel so far.”
Isaiah 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Note: We need women nursing their daughters in the Nativity scene. That is why the Shepherds were told they would find Him laying in a manger, There were other babies there. And when you wrap them, the Hims and the Hers are hard to tell apart.
Isaiah 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. 6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.
They were to come on Camels, The King of Midian, the King of Ephah, and all they from Sheba (Maybe a Queen?)
They were to bring Gold and Incense, which is Frankincense and Myrrh.
Good thing they studied their Bibles and got that right.
Now God kind of hides the Star or the Brightness of the Moon, They thought they were to go to Jerusalem anyway, that also from the Scriptures. So they went To Jerusalem asking “Where is He who is born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the east and have come to worship Him.”
Now, The reason God wanted them to come to Jerusalem, To show mankind (not clear to mankind yet) That “This Man was born there.”
Psalms 87:5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. 6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
Zion would have been the Castle or stronghold David took at Jerusalem, It would have been destroyed when Jerusalem was destroyed, More then likely it was on the hill, we call Calvary or on the higher point outside the City.
2-Samuel 5:6 And the king and his men went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither. 7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.
The Child born to Bathsheba, Would have been born at Zion where David was. And the Body of Christ born the day of the Cross was also born at Zion fulfilling the law.
Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
So This Man (Jesus) is Born there, or at Zion, But He is REBORN at Bethlehem. So He can tell Martha, before going to the Cross, “I am the Resurrection.”
And He can PLAINLY tell the Disciples before going to the Cross “AGAIN” I leave the World and go unto the Father.”
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. 29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. 30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
1-Corinthians 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea , and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
The One Child of David they would never consider:
Psalms 68:5 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.
Bible Students, Not astrologers.
Ken ************************************************************** 04-24-07, 01:46 PM juanruiz
quote: Bible Students, Not astrologers.
Only problem is, there was no Bible then.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 6553 | Location: British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 06-11-02
The Bible existed at that time as the books of the Old Testament which were availible, And they had some of them, Mainly Isaiah.
Bible means Holy Book, and the Book of Isaiah was as Holy as any of the Jewish Scriptures.
Ken ******************************************************************* 04-24-07, 02:17 PM juanruiz Bible simply means book, from the Greek "biblios". "Holy" is an ex post facto add on, like "Divina" to Dante's Commedia and "Moonlight" to Beethoven's sonata. Isaiah itself is a composite work by at least two authors writing far apart in time. ******************************************************************* 04-24-07, 10:37 PM Ken1Burton Juanruiz.
Your right, Bible means book. But most people do not use the word “Bible” when speaking of any Book, So it can be the Bible of Isaiah, The Bible of Jeremiah. And it would be worded correctly. And we could call it the Bible of Bibles. For that is what it is also.
Either way, I think the issue was how the ones called the “Wise Men” knew to come, Knew why they came, Knew what to follow, Knew what to bring, and knew all who should come. Knew what they ought to come riding on.
Now, you want to try to divide the Bible of Isaiah? I really do not care if a hundred men wrote it, Only if the verses are Inspired by God. If one wrote it and another finished it, So what?
Ken ******************************************************************* 04-25-07, 03:46 AM tsaeb Ken1Burton: You say that Jesus was born in 4 B.C. and crucified in 2029 A.D., because he died at age 33. How about he died in 2033 A.D. at age 37?
Also, your lumping all 42 together does not make each of those 42 years. Daniel said that God changes the times--into other times or other measurements. Had you the visions of those measurements, you would not be so conveniently lumping the 42 together as all intending to be years. ******************************************************************* 04-25-07, 09:14 AM babthrower I think he was talking about 42 months of Jesus' activity (preaching), not years, tsaeb. And I think he means the second coming in 2029 A.D. even though he says not. But if he means that Jesus has been living among us since 4BC, that's not at all scriptural.
At any rate, like so many others before him and now, he stares at lines of scripture till he's crosseyed, looking for insight. And he comes up with "“Whose Name ALONE is Jehovah.” That Name applied to Jesus ALONE on the Cross..."
But Jehovah (or a form of that name) was used way before Christianity, for the god of the Jews.
Also, it is common in English to use the term 'alone' to mean 'only'.
Examples:
"Time alone will tell." (We have to wait and see the outcome; that's the only way we can find it out.)
"My loved one, I want you to be mine alone." (I don't want to share you with anyone else. I want you to be only mine.)
“Whose Name ALONE is Jehovah”, using a simple and direct approach to discovering the meaning of and English statement, means "Only Jehovah has that name. There is not another Jehovah."
It takes a real stretch to lead one to believe that "whose name alone is Jehovah" means that when Jesus was alone on the cross his name became Jehovah.
Ken's thinking patterns reminds me of those of Philalethist who put so much emphasis on the phrase "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands", taking it to mean that we are all Jesus, since if we extend our finger we see our own hand: our own hand is Jesus' hand, so we are Jesus.
Some people become obsessive about divining the 'secret messages' of the bible. But why would a loving father hide the truth from all but one, or a very few, of his children?
A loving father would want all of his children to know the truth.
But sometimes jealous children want to believe that they alone know their father's secrets. ******************************************************************* 04-25-07, 10:44 AM Ken1Burton Tsaeb.
I did not really say Jesus was Born in 4 BC. I use the Word “Reborn” or skip it and just list is as laid in a manger. I also said I use the Reese Chronological Bible for dates. I do not assume they are all that accurate. The way the months were uses by the Jewish Calendar, The dating by the years of different Kings, But the use of the different ages of Adam, etc.
This is all guesswork, So let’s keep it as that. We can show what might have been. Like John the Baptizer being of the House of Levi, and they started at age 30. And Jesus would have been 30 also.
42 years? No, 42 Months or three and a half years. From Jesus being Baptized to the time of Golgotha.
Crucified is in 29 A.D. Israel seeing Jesus is the Messiah is 2029 A.D.
As far as having the Visions of those measurements. Consider this, You believe you have these spiritual gifts which qualifies you to be sure of things, Exactly what the true meaning of the English words are etc. Now, you are implying you have been given visions of what those measurements are.
Sorry but those are your beliefs you have that information. I am not going to accept that because you state these things, if it is true. Show it Scripturally. And the exact dates back then can only be assumed.
I show what Time, Times and the Dividing of time is, You see something different, Show it. But show it using Scripture.
Revelation shows a person was given 42 Months to continue, Which fits to three and a half years using the Jewish Calendar if no 13th month is added.
You want to use He died at 37 in 33 A.D. use it. But 2,000 years from whenever it was He was Crucified, the Jewish Nation will see Jesus is the Messiah. I base my dates on assumed dates for back then, as all we have are assumed dates, at least of men. Any Separate God given knowledge will have to be verified Scripturally.
Babthrower.
I do mean the 42 Months spoken of in Revelation, Which is where I said Jesus was taken by the Spirit or taken to the day of the Cross, Shown what He would have to go through, Given 42 months to continue, Taken back by the Spirit and shows the Disciples what will come to pass for three years and a half till they do come to pass.
Jesus ascended to God, He and the Father in Spirit come and make their abode with us, But Physically Jesus is in Heaven sitting at the right hand of God.
I do not mean, I have stated I do not mean a physical Second coming, Jesus said in John 14:19 the world will see Him no more, and that is physically.
Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Psalms 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
“Is BECOME my salvation, ALONE on a Cross.
Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
“For ever: is the day of the Cross when He is ALONE at Golgotha, “For ever and ever” is the day of the Cross and everlasting Future. So the Everlasting Strength is Salvation for Everlasting Future or after the day of the Cross.
I am Cross eyed, I look to the day of the Cross for insight all the time. But the type you are talking about, Happens to be cured a lot by staring at an object. Most are told to stare at least five minutes a day at a pencil held a few inches in front of the nose.
Remember that “Way before Christianity” God foretold of the Coming of Christ and what that would accomplish.
Common English also uses the word “Bible” to mean the Holy Scriptures. And is not seen used just for “Book”
That is why the Biblical Hebrew is just guesses at what the real meaning was, For the real meaning is the meaning when spoken then.
Time, times and the half or dividing together will tell, and 2029 A.D. see for whom the Bell tolls. Israel will see Jesus is the Messiah, in Scripture. Not in person.
A real stretch, or maybe just opening your heart to God to see what He has waiting for us to learn. And when Jesus did a real Stretch on the Cross, That was the fourth 6-hour period. Fourth 1,000 cubit of Ezekiel’s river which is for noon to Sunset records that Stretch.
Ezekiel 47:5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
Isaiah 25:11 And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.
MIDST is also the Fourth 6-hour period, Midst of the day seen as a week, He ends the Daily Sacrifice in the MIDST of the week, The day also seen as 3 pictures, Where ever two or three are gathered together in My Name, There am I in the Midst.
Day spoken of twice, then brought to pass as a third witness. Always written as “Two or Three.”
A loving Father would reveal truth as a way to know who to listen to, Who not.
Like the use of Y2K for the year we call 2,000. Even though a lot knew it was four years off and had already happened in 1996, the year that is. Did we get rid of all who preached Jesus would come again in 2000 A.D.? There would have been a lot cast out. A lot.
But if we had noted them, They were established as False prophets. And it is not you keep guessing to you get one right.
Being Jealous can be a good attribute also, Our Father is a Jealous God. Every one of His Children are precious to Him.
Ken ******************************************************************* 04-28-07, 05:36 AM tsaeb Yes, I did mean 42 months, not 42 years. I must have been feeling my own age: 42+. ******************************************************************* 04-28-07, 05:55 AM tsaeb babthrower wrote (my computer is acting up): "Some people become obsessive about divining the 'secret messages' of the bible. But why would a loving father hide the truth from all but one, or a very few, of his children?
A loving father would want all of his children to know the truth.
But sometimes jealous children want to believe that they alone know their father's secrets."
Diviners make for false prophets/false prophetesses. By picking on one prophet/prophetess at a time to stand out from the pack, God enables attention to be focused on the truth so that it gets out faster whenever He needs it to get out according to His plan. ******************************************************************* 04-28-07, 08:27 AM juanruiz
quote: Diviners make for false prophets/false prophetesses. By picking on one prophet/prophetess at a time to stand out from the pack, God enables attention to be focused on the truth so that it gets out faster whenever He needs it to get out according to His plan.
I don't think you're reaching much of an audience here or through your books. Perhaps a job with the N Y Times would be more beneficial. ******************************************************************* 04-28-07, 11:59 AM babthrower The bible seems to be a kind of Wikipedia of very selective accounts of events from Jewish history
(for example the Egyptians don't even mention the Jews, just lumps them among "Asiatics", whereas according to the Jews, they were an important element of Egyptian life)
and the different Jewish mystics, who, like Tsaeb and Philalethist on these threads, have very different 'takes' on what lies beyond the veil.
Each prophet wrote his own account of things.
And the New Testament seems to show a critical early schism between the Peterites and the later Paulines. On dogma, Paul won; yet Peter is viewed by the majority of Christians as the inheritor of the authority of Jesus.
No wonder Christianity has divided into hundreds of sects, and is dividing itself into even more even as we speak.
Muslim has divided into fewer sects. But they hate each other just as much as any Christian sect hates another.
This seems to tell us more about mankind than about any god. People seem to have this annoying trait of wanting to be the sole expert and authority on the noumena. And will keep on fighting about it either until one view is forced upon all, or until the last of us goes extinct. Or is that only in the Judeo-Christian tradition? ******************************************************************* 04-28-07, 12:49 PM juanruiz
quote: yet Peter is viewed by the majority of Christians as the inheritor of the authority of Jesus.
Only in part. It appears the real inheritor of authority is Jesus' brother James, a figure who doesn't even play a role in the gospels, unless he was one of the group who came to take Jesus away. This is one of these things that somehow made it through the editing process. It's importance is that Jesus apparently envisioned a cosanguinary monarchy after his death. Of equal importance was that James, Peter, and others continued to be practicing Jews. ******************************************************************* 04-28-07, 07:13 PM Ken1Burton Like the Battle with Gideon, God cut the numbers Gideon had to fight with so few there was no question, God was who fought the Battle. Preferring to fight many with few.
The same as the Prophecies, There were a lot of Prophets at the time of Jeremiah, God poured upon Jeremiah, Truth after Truth. Till they all could see, God was speaking to Jeremiah.
1-Kings 22:6 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall I go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king. 7 And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might enquire of him? 8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.
Who was right? The 400 prophets or Micaiah?
Does not God use one and not a multitude to show Himself as the one who sent the prophet?
How many End times prophets jumped on the Y2K bandwagon for the year we see as 2,000 A.D.? I think a lot of them are still eating Spam and wondering what to do with that Generator they bought?
We ought to be able to tell by the Multitude which tell the same Prophecy, they are not from God, He does not work that way.
The European Nations? Will come against Israel? Not a Chance, Russia is the Bear? No, Never was in Scripture, never will be.
Wormwood was the Nuclear disaster in Russia, No, Cute story, Phony Story.
False Prophets grab anything which sounds good to them, So you have hundreds saying the same thing, But when God speaks to a person, No one wants to share that Story. So they preach it pretty much alone.
Tsaeb is right, God uses one so they stand out, John the Baptizer stood out, then Jesus stood out as Jesus increased, and John decreased.
John had a message contrary to the present Beliefs, of what they should be doing, then Jesus had a message far more Contrary.
Most of the messages were to change what you are believing, and see this is what God is showing. As mankind does not like Change, Almost all were rejected, many stoned, Some killed. But God seems to always tap another on the
