This expression has been bandied about in recent threads. It certainly had a specific definition for some Jews during the Second Temple Period, but I don't believe Christians share in that scenario. When you say Kingdom of God, what do you mean?
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03-21-07, 06:51 PM
philalethist
When I say it I mean just as is written in Luke 17:20 KJV. Add not to it nor take away from it.
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03-21-07, 06:55 PM
juanruiz
Very good, Phil. Luke is the Kingdom of God gospel.
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03-21-07, 07:14 PM
philalethist
Why thank you Amigo. Compliments are few and far between. Even with a full basket you can continue to shake the tree of knowledge.
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03-21-07, 07:22 PM
juanruiz

quote:
Compliments are few and far between.



Yes, and mores the pity.
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03-22-07, 08:36 AM
Bibleman
A kingdom is a government in which a king (or queen) rules over the people.

The Kingdom of God is a real govrernment ruled by God, a Theocracy if you will.

Israel until the time of Babylon was the Kingdom of God in a representative sense.

Note this from Isaiah: 9:6, 7 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." (KJV)

Daniel 2:44 is in harmony with this.

Then we read in Luke 22:29 & 30 - "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

This is in harmony with Revelaion 5:9, 10 - "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Some claim that the Kingdom is something inside one's heart, but that is not logical nor Scriptural. In Luke 17:21 Jesus said: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (KJV)

However, for one thing he was talking to the Pharisees who showed no evidence of God's influence in their lives, so the "kingdom" certainly would not have been in their wicked hearts.

Also noteworthy is the marginal reference in the KJV it says "or, among you." Thus, the NWT renders this as: "Neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
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03-22-07, 03:34 PM
VelvetVoice
The OT kingdom and NT kingdom "overlap", up until 70 AD, and the NT kingdom will be built from now until the Day of Judgement. You hint at knowing a specific definition of the OT kingdom in the Second Temple period, please share it with us.

Jesus makes it clear that He is the King of the Kingdom of God.
Matthew 4:From that time Jesus began to preach and say, " Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Matthew 12:28But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Matthew 13:41"(AL)The Son of Man (AM)will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all (AN)stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and (AO)will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place (AP)there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43"(AQ)Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father (AR)He who has ears, let him hear.

He also says it is not an earthly kingdom:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "(A)My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not [a]of this realm."
Luke 22:30 that you may (A)eat and drink at My table in My (B)kingdom, and (C)you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Not everyone gets in automatically:
Matthew 7:21 " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matthew 11:12 " From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

We have some of the Kingdom in the present:
Most of Matthew 13 is analogy to describe the Kingdom here on earth.
28Therefore, since we receive a (A)kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may (B)offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe;
James 2:5Listen, (A)my beloved brethren: did not (B)God choose the poor of this world to be (C)rich in faith and (D)heirs of the kingdom which He (E)promised to those who love Him?
Matthew 6:33"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and (A)all these things will be added to you.
1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

We are to spread the news of the Kingdom:
Matthew 24:14"This (A)gospel of the kingdom (B)shall be preached in the whole (C)world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The fullness of the Kingdom will be given to the elect on the Day of Judgement:
Revelation 5:"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, " The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
Revelation 12:Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

God's purpose will be accomplished"
Revelation 17:17 "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.
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03-22-07, 04:01 PM
juanruiz

quote:
You hint at knowing a specific definition of the OT kingdom in the Second Temple period, please share it with us.



Oh man! This may take several posts. To start with, one has to distinguish the "Kingdom of God" as it was held by Judaism (which I will go into further) and the Christian definition, which became a metaphor for ethical behavior or a recondite aspect of theology.

Unlike paganism, with its complex mythologies, Judaism declared all was brought into being by the will of a single Being, YHWH. He made a covenant with the Jews, claiming them as His people. Yet, over the centuries, there were vicissitudes, and thus arose the question: "If we are YHWH's people, what went wrong?" The Hebrew Prophets responded that Jews themselves had flouted YHWH's will. They had drifted into paganism, ignored the Law. The bad times were punishment for this: the Babylonians, Seleucid Greeks, Romans. Yet, YHWH would be true to His people. He would pour out his spirit. And it is here that Judaic Messianism comes in. The conquered would become the conquerors. Israel would receive an annointed one, a Davidic king, or a wise prophet, through whom it would throw off its oppressor. Then YHWH would rule his people in a literal, physical kingdom. All would be well, since all would acknowledge YHWH. His grace and blessings would flow out to all Jews. The days of strife would be no more. This was totally co-opted by Paul's Christianity. Lost was the idea of an earthly kingdom, as the concept became internalized; the Kingdom is within you. Gospel writers, especially Luke, picked up on this. Since there was no longer a select group in the covenant, but rather all those who accepted Jesus wherever they lived, a real territory (Israel) ceased to be relevant. Thus, the inevitable symbolic notion of a Kingdom.
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03-22-07, 05:30 PM
GarColga

quote:
Originally posted by philalethist:
Compliments are few and far between.

I would like to compliment all the believers here for holding fast to a set of bizarre beliefs, despite a lack of evidence that they are true, and which require adopting the world-view of an uneducated person of the first century.

Very good. Way to go.
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03-22-07, 06:06 PM
juanruiz
Gar, you really do crack me up.
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03-23-07, 10:39 AM
VelvetVoice

quote:
Originally posted by GarColga:
I would like to compliment all the believers here for holding fast to a set of bizarre beliefs, despite a lack of evidence that they are true, and which require adopting the world-view of an uneducated person of the first century.

Better than being a bitter old man that has to make himself feel better by belittling others. Show us your 21st-century enlightenment and superior education by posting something other than inflammatory insults.
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03-23-07, 11:03 AM
juanruiz
This Kingdom of God scenario was the backround of much of what was occurring in Judea and the Gallilee during the the first century CE. The Essenes had left Jerusalem, considering it hopelessly corrupt and unsalvageable, forming their New Jerusalem at Qum Ran. Roman tyranny simply exacerbated an already bad situation. They already had put down the Jewish revolt of 6 CE led by Judas the Gallilean, and had taken over control of Jerusalem, leaving Gallilee to Herod Antipas. The priests served at the pleasure of the Roman Prefect.

It is at this time that certain zealot sects within Judaism came up with the idea of "forcing the end." By that is meant, attempting to force the Romans' hand; get them to engage in a major military campaign. They believed that if they could get that to happen, YHWH would respond in defense of his people, conquer the Romans, and establish the Kingdom of God. In other words, get YHWH to do for them what he appeared not ready to do. We all know that this eventually happened in 67-70 CE, and resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple. Moral? Don't mess with YHWH.
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03-23-07, 11:25 AM
juanruiz
It is also against this backdrop that John the Baptist comes on the scene. Some scholars believe that he had been a member of the Qum Ran sect, but was not content with the cliquish nature of the group, and felt he should go out and attempt to "save" fellow Jews. Most of what is known about him comes from Josephus. But here we must be careful. Like most historians of his time, Josephus wrote with a slant. He was of the Jewish aristocracy, a Sadducee himself. He disliked Herod, because he was and Idumean. And disliked John, because he rocked the boat. Josephus' attention to him indicates John's importance.

This importance obviously concerned the gospel writers, since they go out of their way to lower John and raise Jesus. One going so far as to make them cousins and have John leap for joy in the womb. While the gospel writers co-opt the John story for their own purposes, it is likely that he too saw the Kingdom of God scenario as a real, physical territory, entrance into which he sought to prepare his fellow Jews.
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03-23-07, 11:35 AM
babthrower
I don't think 21st century enlightenment quite works when dealing with people who in spite of seeing their god-given propecies fail time and time again, and the promises of Jehovah laughably unreliable, still believe he is the creator of the universe and the supreme power in it, and is the perfection of all virtues; instead of the obvious: that he is just another petty tribal god invented by a desperate people at a time when they believed they were on the edge of extinction.

And what do they tell themselves when yet another divine promise is broken?

"We must have sinned and disobeyed. Or one of us must have had a secret hidden sin. Let's make up some more really stupid wasteful cruel rules to obey, maybe that will please him."
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03-23-07, 11:51 AM
dance girl

quote:
Originally posted by babthrower:
"... Or one of us must have had a secret hidden sin. Let's make up some more really stupid wasteful cruel rules to obey, maybe that will please him."



I'd like to plead "guilty as charged" babs, for not playing by the rules....oh and the hidden sin bit too.
But life's so much more fun this way!
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03-23-07, 12:04 PM
babthrower
Oh, well, go slaughter a hundred oxen or something, that should make it all right. The smell of burning blood, hair and bone is pleasing to the magnificent one. Just don't fan the smoke in my direction! Eek
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03-23-07, 12:08 PM
VelvetVoice
If you are not adding something constructive to the thread by way of its original intent, then start a new one. Someone around here said: "Sarcasm, in my opinion, is a way of bullying, that not only leaves a sour taste in the mouth of the reader, but also devalues the opinions of the writer using it." I think it's pretty shallow for someone to say something and act the opposite way.
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03-23-07, 12:15 PM
dance girl
What was that you were saying on the previous thread babs about " Hail Mary full of grapes?"..

or was it "Hail Mary full of sour grapes" Big Grin
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03-23-07, 12:24 PM
dance girl

quote:
Originally posted by VelvetVoice:
"Sarcasm, in my opinion, is a way of bullying, that not only leaves a sour taste in the mouth of the reader, but also devalues the opinions of the writer using it." I think it's pretty shallow for someone to say something and act the opposite way.

Oh I'm not being sarcastic VV, I break the rules, and I'm sure I have plenty of sins !

You've managed to insult two people today already. You called me shallow, and I believe you just referred to another member as a "bitter old man". Way to go VV!
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03-23-07, 12:27 PM
juanruiz
And then we arrive at Jesus. What an enigmatic figure for someone worshipped as a god by billions of people! G.A. Wells maintains he never existed; that he is, like William Tell, a legend. That outside the NT, there is next to nothing said about him, makes it all that much more difficult. The great German Biblical scholar and exegete, Rudolf Bultmann, gave up all hope of ever finding an historical Jesus, decalring all the NT has to offer is the Christ of faith.

Nonetheless, a veritable cottage industry has developed among scholars, attempting to divine who this person was: a cynic (Funk), a revolutionary (Crossan), a magician (Smith), a Pharisee (Maccoby), an Essene (Vermes).

Some believe that Jesus started out as a disciple of John the Baptist. Perhaps this explains, in part, the gospels' desire to make that latter into a flunkie. But because all we really have are the gospels as the source of any clues, we have to look there. Paul's epistles are of no help. He proclaims the Christ, and has no interest in the historical figure.

In some ways, the gospels are stuck. They have tried to sanitize Jesus as much as they could. But apparently some things were known so well, they could not omit them. Two events are key I believe: the cleansing of the temple, and the crucifixion. The former reveals a violence indicative of a zealot Jesus, one looking to purify Judaism through action. The latter, a jesus who was found guilty of sedition, a revolutionary seeking to overthrow Rome. Again, a zealot attempting to "force the end." For history cannot be contramanded here: crucifixion was reserved for revolutionaries. The targum over his cross stated his crime: King of the Jews was something Rome would not allow.

So if you shed all the theological accoutrements, it seems you end up with a much more bellicose Jesus than the gospels will admit to. This reputation is borne out in some of the Apochrypha, particularly the child-Jesus stories.
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03-23-07, 12:30 PM
VelvetVoice
Anyway, getting back to the thread:
I am assuming for the purposes of this thread that the Tanakh is true and an accurate history of God and Israel. It's true that the Kingdom of God in OT times was a physical, tangible thing with boundaries, meaning heritage and establishment of a place. God spoke to them directly, and helped them win battles despite incredible odds.

It is a testament, I believe, to God Himself, that they still survive as a nation with a distinct culture. However, it seems to be only an ethnic or political distinction, since most Jews today claim to be atheist or are nominal in practice of faith. I have recently corresponded with some Karaite Jews, and they got into a disagreement on what the prophets meant. Secular Israel will never be able to rise until spiritual Israel is united.

You can pretty much say the same for Christianity too. However, I will be judged as an individual, whereas the Tanakh seems to indicate they will get their reward as a people. And according to these Karaites, righteous Gentiles will also receive grace and blessings. But I am an idol worshipper, too, because of my beliefs. So how can I be both righteous and and idol worshipper?
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03-23-07, 12:32 PM
VelvetVoice
I can trade insult for insult too. I am not required to be a doormat for you or anyone else.
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03-23-07, 12:35 PM
juanruiz
So, there you go VV. My view on the subject. Hope you believe it was constructive to the thread.
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03-23-07, 12:37 PM
GarColga

quote:
Originally posted by VelvetVoice:

quote:
Originally posted by GarColga:
I would like to compliment all the believers here for holding fast to a set of bizarre beliefs, despite a lack of evidence that they are true, and which require adopting the world-view of an uneducated person of the first century.



Better than being a bitter old man that has to make himself feel better by belittling others. Show us your 21st-century enlightenment and superior education by posting something other than inflammatory insults.


Wow! Bitter old man!! Good one VV!
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03-23-07, 12:39 PM
VelvetVoice
With all due respect, if you dish it out, you should be able to take it too. It's too bad this thread is ruined with petty bickering.
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03-23-07, 12:42 PM
juanruiz
I have spent a lot of time posting on this thread. So if if it is deleted I am going to blame some people in this room.
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03-23-07, 12:46 PM
VelvetVoice
Please save your work, JR. I am having a hard time responding when I'm feeling pressured and bullied. I'm sorry to you if I am the cause of this erasure, if any. I made copies of your posts, and will respond in a while.
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03-23-07, 12:51 PM
juanruiz
To tell you the truth, I enjoy the spunkiness of the rejoinders. I just feel I have added some serious commentary here which I would not like to see deleted.
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03-23-07, 12:54 PM
juanruiz
And, btw, where are other Christians like DD, Aire, etc to answer the original question? I do want to know what people define as the Kingdom of God.
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03-23-07, 01:03 PM
juanruiz

quote:
I made copies of your posts

Thanks, because I write off the top of my head and don't save anything I post here to a separate file.
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03-23-07, 01:11 PM
DorianGreyed
While not a prophet, I foresee this thread closing if the insults don't stop.
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03-23-07, 01:17 PM
juanruiz
Close it if you must, but please don't delete. Too many of my brain cells are in it.
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03-23-07, 04:12 PM
GarColga

quote:
Originally posted by DorianGreyed:
While not a prophet, I foresee this thread closing if the insults don't stop.

The only personal insults are coming from VV. Why not just tell her to stop with the ad hominems?
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03-23-07, 04:44 PM
babthrower
I think we have to hand the palm to JR who steadfastly stuck to the topic, and in addition gave us some very interesting stuff. The rest of us are not guiltless. Red Face
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03-23-07, 06:19 PM
Sarai
Gar - you gotta admit that post congratulating believers might have been a tad bit insulting.
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03-23-07, 07:11 PM
GarColga

quote:
Originally posted by Sarai:
Gar - you gotta admit that post congratulating believers might have been a tad bit insulting.

Regardless - it was not a personal insult.

I have been attacking Christianity for years now. I have mocked the beliefs of "christians" - they are welcome to mock mine, and they have.

That post was no more inflammatory that many others made here. Honestly, I don't think mahal even ever tried to insult me on a personal level.

Shame on VV.
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03-23-07, 07:14 PM
juanruiz

quote:
Honestly, I don't think mahal even ever tried to insult me on a personal level.

Wish I could say the same.
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03-23-07, 10:45 PM
GarColga
Yeah, he really had it in for you.

However - all is forgiven. I am neither 'bitter' nor an 'old man', so I wasn't really offended.
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03-23-07, 10:54 PM
juanruiz

quote:
Yeah, he really had it in for you.

yes, he did. I could never figure the animous he felt for me. Can only think of one other person that got that personal.
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03-24-07, 09:05 AM
juanruiz

quote:
"Sarcasm, in my opinion, is a way of bullying, that not only leaves a sour taste in the mouth



Rather ironic, since the Greek root word means "to tear flesh"...presumably raw.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,

As I read it and it speaks to me in a new tongue which is to say read between the lines, or if you prefer precept on precept.
Duet 30:20 add not to it nor take away from it.
1 Corinthians 11:3 The head of every man is Christ (NO respect of persons)
John 1:1 The word is God
John 17:17 The word is truth
1 John 4:8 God is Love.

Therefore Love and truth are one and the same.
It can be spoken to me anytime. Even though I have never met any of you all personal, I love you all. Even if this thread does tickle my funny bone just a bit.

As an after thought I might add Deut 32:47.
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03-24-07, 12:54 PM
babthrower
I think what we atheists tend to forget is that a denial of a theist's god is personal. It's like you're insulting their father. So if a theist gets a bit snappy back, it's very understandable.

The only theist who has insulted me was a guy name Enzo. He wasn't around long, though. I think he kept calling me a liar when I told of religious events in my young life as a Roman Catholic. I've forgotten exactly what he used to say but I know I was really mad at him.
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03-24-07, 12:58 PM
juanruiz
If I recall, Enzo was Roman Catholic...and tended to believe the RCC's official history.
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03-24-07, 01:37 PM
babthrower
Yeah, he worked as a birth control specialist for a diocese in California, I think. That must have been fun to watch.

I was thinking of him last night while watching a CBC special on the coverup of pedophilia in several dioceses in Quebec and Ontario. The details supported my memory of being taught specifically in catechism class that if we know of a sinful priest we must keep it secret so as not to bring scandal upon the church.

It's coming back to me now, I think Enzo said that had never happened, I was just a Catholic-basher, and if it did happen, it was because I lived in a really backward area. Mad
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03-24-07, 02:01 PM
juanruiz

quote:
Yeah, he worked as a birth control specialist for a diocese in California,

Can you say oxymoron?
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03-24-07, 06:47 PM
GarColga

quote:
Originally posted by babthrower:
I think what we atheists tend to forget is that a denial of a theist's god is personal. It's like you're insulting their father. So if a theist gets a bit snappy back, it's very understandable.

Keep in mind that Christian theists gleefully worship a god that they wholeheartedly believe will punish us for our disbelief. For eternity.

In my mind this is a belief that needs to be insulted.
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03-24-07, 07:03 PM
babthrower
Hey, I'm not trying to come off holier-than-thou. Wink I've done my share of religion-bashing. It's just that when they come back, it's because they believe their god is a real person and he expects them to defend him. (I think.) Roll Eyes
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03-24-07, 07:15 PM
GarColga

quote:
Originally posted by babthrower:
Hey, I'm not trying to come off holier-than-thou. Wink

LOL
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03-24-07, 07:35 PM
dance girl
I see your point babs.
However, does that give them carte blanche to make personal insults? I don't think it should.
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03-24-07, 08:52 PM
philalethist
[B]Carte blanche ¿[/B
Would this be simular to Ephesians 6:13-17 as in the KJV ?

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Carefull; James 3:5-6 KJV
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03-25-07, 12:05 AM
Momma Angel

quote:
Keep in mind that Christian theists gleefully worship a god that they wholeheartedly believe will punish us for our disbelief. For eternity.

In my mind this is a belief that needs to be insulted.



I guess my problem with your statement here is you sure make it sound like we are gleeful because you (generalized) are going to be punished for eternity?

Wow, do you ever have a lot to learn about what real Christianity is. A Christian doesn't boast. A Christian isn't arrogant and haughty and thinking they are all better than others.

You have the exact same choice to make in life that we all have, according to the Bible, so whatever choice YOU make is YOUR responsibility.

And be honest with yourself, even if you are not directly attacking a person the words you use are a coward's way out of confronting someone face to face with what you want to say. That, is strictly my opinion.

Anyway, JuanRuiz! Great to see you! It's been a long time! I loved your posts on this thread. Kudos!
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03-25-07, 12:17 AM
babthrower
Phil, you mean
Ephesians 6 :13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

What the cotton-pikin' does this have to do with anything in this thread?

Carte blanche means a white card, upon which you can write whatever you like.

You must have experienced an unusual childhood.
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03-25-07, 07:52 AM
GarColga

quote:
Originally posted by Momma Angel:
[QUOTE]Keep in mind that Christian theists gleefully worship a god that they wholeheartedly believe will punish us for our disbelief. For eternity.

In my mind this is a belief that needs to be insulted.



quote:
I guess my problem with your statement here is you sure make it sound like we are gleeful because you (generalized) are going to be punished for eternity?



OK leave out the word 'gleefully' then. Christians choose to worship such a god.

quote:
Wow, do you ever have a lot to learn about what real Christianity is. A Christian doesn't boast. A Christian isn't arrogant and haughty and thinking they are all better than others.



I suspect that 'real Christianity' is different for each Christian. I'll wager that there are Christians that don't consider you to be a 'real Christian'. Don't be silly - Christians are prey to the same foibles that beset everybody else. Plenty of them are boastful and arrogant. Christians fill our prisons. They get divorces, gossip, and even lie. They are responsible, so some of them boast, for reelecting George Bush. Some Christians have plenty of blood on their hands and a lot to answer for if there is an afterlife.

quote:
You have the exact same choice to make in life that we all have, according to the Bible, so whatever choice YOU make is YOUR responsibility.



Not sure what the biblical reference is, but that goes without saying. I am responsible for the choices I make.

quote:
And be honest with yourself, even if you are not directly attacking a person the words you use are a coward's way out of confronting someone face to face with what you want to say. That, is strictly my opinion.



I don't get this at all. Any criticism of Christianity is a cowardly attack on 'someone'?

quote:
Anyway, JuanRuiz! Great to see you! It's been a long time! I loved your posts on this thread. Kudos!



No comment.
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03-25-07, 08:39 AM
juanruiz

quote:
Anyway, JuanRuiz! Great to see you! It's been a long time! I loved your posts on this thread. Kudos!



Thank you. Nice to see you again MA. Welcome back.
03-25-07, 11:15 AM
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philalethist

quote:
fiery darts


03-25-07, 01:28 PM
babthrower
Oh. Yeah, well I see your point. But couldn't you just have said, 'fiery darts of the wicked' instead of making me look it up? Big Grin
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03-25-07, 02:23 PM
GarColga
Who is 'wicked', phil? Man that's worse than 'bitter' I think.
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03-25-07, 02:25 PM
Momma Angel

quote:
Originally posted by GarColga:

OK leave out the word 'gleefully' then. Christians choose to worship such a god.



You seem to have some misconception going here. Yeah, we choose to worship God, true. But you make it sound like we run around laughing at the non-believers or think we are better than they are. That is NOT Christianity.

quote:
suspect that 'real Christianity' is different for each Christian. I'll wager that there are Christians that don't consider you to be a 'real Christian'. Don't be silly - Christians are prey to the same foibles that beset everybody else. Plenty of them are boastful and arrogant. Christians fill our prisons. They get divorces, gossip, and even lie. They are responsible, so some of them boast, for reelecting George Bush. Some Christians have plenty of blood on their hands and a lot to answer for if there is an afterlife.



According to God, as per the Bible, there is only one type of Christianity and that would be the real Christianity. Anyone can claim to be a Christian but that doesn't make them one.



quote:
I don't get this at all. Any criticism of Christianity is a cowardly attack on 'someone'?



No, that is not what I meant at all and I apologize for not making it clearer. Words like deluded, stupid beliefs, crazy, etc., are completely unnecessary in my opinion. All one needs to do is say "this is what I don't believe and why." The negative words really detract from some very good statements I feel. And in my experience, people that use those words, are meaning that the person is what they are saying. If that is not the case with you then fine, but I think you can understand my point?
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03-25-07, 03:06 PM
juanruiz

quote:
According to God, as per the Bible, there is only one type of Christianity and that would be the real Christianity. Anyone can claim to be a Christian but that doesn't make them one.



In theory this may be true, but in the the real world there are thousands of Christian groups who seem to spend most of their time finding fault with each others' beliefs. The Lutherans alone bear this out.
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03-25-07, 03:20 PM
GarColga
The idea that there was or is only one 'type of Christianity' is an oft-repeated canard that doesn't hold up to the slightest scrutiny.

In the NT itself we see there are already at least three different Christianities -Pauline, Gnostic, and the Jewish Christianity of James in Jerusalem.

Celsus wrote near the end of the second century:

"Christians, needless to say, utterly detest one another; they slander each other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse, and cannot come to any sort of agreement in their teaching. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own with deceitful nonsense..."
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03-25-07, 05:11 PM
babthrower
The Kingdom of God
"Christians ... utterly detest one another..."

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Roll Eyes

Later Celsus says:

"The following are the rules laid down by them. Let no one come to us who has been instructed, or who is wise or prudent (for such qualifications are deemed evil by us); but if there be any ignorant, or unintelligent, or uninstructed, or foolish persons, let them come with confidence. By which words, acknowledging that such individuals are worthy of their God, they manifestly show that they desire and are able to gain over only the silly, and the mean, and the stupid, with women and children."

Or they're educated with the Old Testament for a science text.
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03-25-07, 07:29 PM
philalethist

quote:
Originally posted by GarColga:
Who is 'wicked', phil? Man that's worse than 'bitter' I think.

My thoughts were along the line of Proverbs 23:7
and with this thought in mind it might be a good idea for each to step back and look at theirselves in the mirror of life.

Then again as in Jeremiah 23:36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man’s word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God
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03-25-07, 10:03 PM
juanruiz
I'm wondering where these Celsus quotes are coming from. Nothing he wrote survived; all we have is what Origen said he said. Sorta like Socrates and Plato.
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03-28-07, 10:22 PM
doñadiana

quote:
Originally posted by juanruiz:
This expression has been bandied about in recent threads. It certainly had a specific definition for some Jews during the Second Temple Period, but I don't believe Christians share in that scenario. When you say Kingdom of God, what do you mean?



The theme of the Kingdom of God runs through both Testaments, focusing God's purpose for world history. In the Old Testament God declared that He would exercise His kingship (His sovereignty) by ruling over people's lives and circumstances through His chosen King, the Davidic Messiah, in a golden age of blessing. The Kingdom of God is the reality that came with Jesus as the fulfillment of God's plan for history, of which Old Testament prophets had often spoken and is known wherever the lordship of Jesus is acknowledged. Jesus is presently enthroned in heaven as ruler over all things, King of kings and Lord of lords. The kingdom is present in its beginnings but future in its fullness. (New Geneva Study Bible, NKJV)

DD
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03-29-07, 07:46 AM
GarColga

quote:
Originally posted by juanruiz:
I'm wondering where these Celsus quotes are coming from. Nothing he wrote survived; all we have is what Origen said he said. Sorta like Socrates and Plato.



Hi juan - the Celsus quote I used was from "The Philocalia of Origen". XVI. ----Concerning those who slander Christianity on account of the heresies in the Church.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/origen161.html
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03-30-07, 03:37 AM
tsaeb

quote:
Originally posted by philalethist:
When I say it I mean just as is written in Luke 17:20 KJV. Add not to it nor take away from it.



Move on to Luke 17.21 in which we find that the kingdom of God is within you. Therefore, the kingdom is not a government, and such a way of thinking is abominable, since it is written that a lying tongue is the second abomination after a proud look. The kingdom of God is God manifesting as God + the Word + the Holy Spirit + Jesus. As a theist here, I have to pity those who cannot be Spirit led but insist on eating the moldy bread spit up by their religious leaders. When the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch, which is to say, one liar breeds other liars. Philalethist is correct here, and I would sooner stand next to juanruiz, GarColga, and babthrower, who deny God, than those who should know better but call God a government. If babthrower acts up and calls my website tacky, I will just have to stick her with one of its tacks. How in the world can anyone who is agnostic or atheistic here come to any appreciation of a deity who is billed as a government by theists? I am literally having a choking coughing fit as I type these words to those who call God "Lord, Lord" but who God will tell, "I never knew you." You all get out your concordances and look up "within" to see where God as the kingdom lives, not in some fairy-tale land called heaven, where you intend to go when you die, adding lie upon lie. You achieve heaven when you acknowledge God as the kingdom within you. God, help all of us right now!
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03-30-07, 07:46 AM
philalethist
John 14:6 KJV

If one reads it and ask the question of themselves OF What they may come to the conclusion that the answer is Your own life and the length of thy days as in Deut 30:20 KJV and maybe, just maybe some may learn to listen to the voice of their very own life. How Be It
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04-08-07, 01:25 AM
Mike121
Interesting question and thread and I’m way late checking in…

I’ll throw in that John the Baptist heralded the kingdom as being “at hand” indicating that it was just beginning and that Jesus alluded to the kingdom of God as being “inherited” and/or “entered” indicating that this kingdom was not one of subjugation but one of acceptance – a terribly interesting point given the current culture. Even if the Gospel authors were complete liars this is still a very interesting point. In fact, if they were lying this seems damned creative and ingenious. But to what end?
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04-08-07, 08:38 AM
philalethist

quote:
But to what end?


Isaiah 42:16 KJV And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight.

Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 52 Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

And they know not that the mountains, hills, the crooked and the rough ways are but the ways of men.

Psalm 49:20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.
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04-30-07, 11:15 AM
juanruiz

quote:
I’ll throw in that John the Baptist heralded the kingdom as being “at hand” indicating that it was just beginning

And, of course, this has caused no end of problems for those of an eschatalogical bent. If the Baptist announced it as such, it has been "at hand" for nearly two millenia.

tsaeb
That "at hand" interpretation is the false, unregenerate one, because it is about the kingdom being out there near one's hand about to occur on earth but not within one. There are others which involve having a knowledge of how one's mind can understand the kingdom as being within one; they are the true, regenerate interpretations.
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05-01-07, 07:16 AM
juanruiz
That's one rationalization. Another is "We're dealing with God's time here, not a watch." Problem is, why was the Baptist trying to get so many people to repent so quickly if 2000 years later there is still nothing? What was his take on the timetable?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,