A Collection of Ahmed Deedat's Debates High Quality Videos
Deedat's Encounter with Christians Missionaries Was Christ Crucified ?
It's a great debate between Sheikh Ahmed Deedat who is well-known as a muslim scholar in comparative religion and Dr.Floyd E. Clark who is a professor emeritus at Johnson Bible College USA. In this debate was the first appearnce for Dr. Anis Shorrosh whom Sheikh Ahmed Deedat had many debates with The Quran or The Bible Which is God's Word
http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12179 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 03-15-07, 03:00 PM juanruiz What if you fail to see the validity of either side? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-20-07, 07:35 PM Ken1Burton Alwan.
Without even looking at the debate, I assume those who are Christians would say Floyd Clark won, and those who are Moslem would say Sheikh Deedat won.
Muslim Scholar? Does that not apply to both parties? Seeing the Word Muslim means a true believer in God, and Jesus and the Disciples are seen as Muslims in the Quran.
I do not see either of those two parties on this Forum, So how about you? What do you have to say about if it was Jesus who was crucified? I prefer to speak to the other parties on a Forum, Not quotes from people who will not be the one answering.
Allow me to take this in a different direction. Quran says it was someone like Jesus, Who was crucified.
Would you consider a Murder, a rapist, a blasphemer, a thief, a Child molester, Jesus?
The person on that Cross, Not a Righteous Person, But one with all the Future sins of the World on Him? Is that Jesus? (Past and presents sins then were paid for “With His stripes we are healed.”
But Future sins (While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.)
Is that person with all those sins Jesus, or not? Or is the Quran really saying, It was His Body, But not really Him?
God’s eyes are seen as purer then to look upon Iniquity, Iniquity God laid upon a person, And Most see Jesus as the Fulfillment of that prophecy.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
There is a Big Problem. The Quran was written in the Seventh Century. When it is written Allah makes the Statement that the Book which was given the People (Old Testament or Jewish Holy Scripture.) And the Gospel given to the followers of Jesus (New Testament) are True and there are believers in Both.
So as of that point in time, We can not go back and say all of the real Christians were killed, and Christianity followed Paul. For it would have had to happen after Allah said they were true.
And as Allah also says in the end, He will bring us all together. I guess it would still have to be true till we got brought together. For if there is no real Christian believers, and no real Jewish believers alive, Allah can not put us together, can He?
Also the idea that many have the Quran memorized, So what? Did God not have Jeremiah rewrite the Book which the King burnt in the Fire word for word, and added many like words? God can have anyone rewrite word for word, Anything He inspired. In any language He desires, or in all languages if He so chooses.
Can mankind eliminate God’s word by burning or changing all the words if God does not want that to happen? If you can see Allah with the power of God, being God. Why do so many Moslems see Allah as not being able to bring back the Old and New Testaments if anyone really changed them as some people claim?
This is an open Forum, and anyone can jump into this discussion. No one needs to know a lot of verses in the Bible or the Quran, we are all at different levels or learning, and of the things of Scripture which seemed to interest us more.
Lots of Christians have never read the Quran, Lots of Jews have never read the New Testament or the Quran. However as Allah said He gave all three books and they are true, I guess Moslems have no reason not to read all three. Allah did say He sent them.
Ken +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-20-07, 07:45 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton: Allow me to take this in a different direction. Quran says it was someone like Jesus, Who was crucified.
Would you consider a Murder, a rapist, a blasphemer, a thief, a Child molester, Jesus?
Quran does not say it was someone like Jesus (peace be upon him) that got crucified. quran says Jesus (peace be upon him) was never crucified but saved.
Gospel of Barnabas says it was someone else (Judas) that got crucified. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-20-07, 07:55 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton: However as Allah said He gave all three books and they are true, I guess Moslems have no reason not to read all three. Allah did say He sent them.
We have Quran the revelation and Quran the book. Muslims claim they are exactly the same.
We 100% believe in the revelation received by the Biblical prophets. However they were not books that they received (to my understanding). People wrote them and then copied them as generations passed. As per Islam mistakes (genuine or deliberate were made).
I cant answer with certainity 'why' for many questions.... as the knowledge for that is only with Allah. Suppose if God does help mankind discover a very very old bible which is significantly different than the current one. I can bet you it wont replace the current bible used by 2 billion people or would it?
Quran as per muslims as the last revelation from God unchanged for over 1400 years. It overrides previous revelations , again as per muslims. We respect the bible but follow only and only Quran.
Finally while we certainly do believe the revelations received by the Biblical prophets, I certianly dont see why we (muslims) should accept the writing of the disciples (based on their own inspiration) , especially the self proclaimed disciples.
I do not know the Quran verses all that well. That might have been what I have run into when speaking to Moslems as to Jesus and if it was Him Crucified.
I can go through it verse by verse and see what is there. I just do not have a good recall to what is where.
Allah still speaks in Similitudes, the Same as seen in Hosea 12:10. So saying it was not Jesus, Might imply the Jesus mankind sees, and not the Jesus with sins which God could not even look upon.
I am not sure where this “Gospel of Barnabas” is coming from, But it holds no credibility as far as I am concerned, We have Barnabas in Scripture, and that was not his message.
You said “We have Quran the Revelation, and Quran the Book.”? Are we talking the Same BOOK? The one Mohammad wrote down, Called “The Holy Quran.”? or are you speaking of two different books? Given to Islam?
I do not see major changes in the way God is. He may change as how He is dealing with different people or circumstances, But His objectives remain the same. His desire for mankind remains the same.
The Truths God has established remain the same. So more or less books do not mean much, If they show us more things while not contradicting what He has shown already.
Now going from a strict law to Grace has been a part of that desire by God, Not to do something out of fear, or to get rewarded, But do it out of your heart, and your love for Him.
Consider the Opposite, If we discover a Very old Bible (Old Testament) that is exactly like it is today, Will Islam drop it’s claims the Scriptures have been altered?
For the New Testament is really a fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecies. So if the Prophets show Jesus was to be Crucified, Will Islam accept it?
Every day the Jewish nation had Sin offerings, Burnt offerings, etc, Till what Christians see as the Final offering, So Jesus is the One who ended the Daily Sacrifice as Christians believe.
Peter and the Disciples did not carry on with daily sin offerings.
Ezra 6:8 Moreover I make a decree what ye shall do to the elders of these Jews for the building of this house of God: that of the king's goods, even of the tribute beyond the river, forthwith expenses be given unto these men, that they be not hindered. 9 And that which they have need of, both young bullocks, and rams, and lambs, for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the appointment of the priests which are at Jerusalem, let it be given them day by day without fail: 10 That they may offer sacrifices of sweet savours unto the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king, and of his sons. 11 Also I have made a decree, that whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill for this.
There is a curse for the One who ended the Daily Sacrifice, and it sounds like they are to be Crucified.
Christianity is a Dunghill? No problem, Sounds like good nourishment for the Tree of Life.
1 Corinthians 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea , and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
When you list the Quran as the last Revelation from God, Did He die after He gave Mohammad those words? Leave the Universe? Turn His back for eternity from mankind?
God says a lot of hidden things in the Bible, and the Quran, Who is doing this revealing? Or shows the REVELATION of the meaning? Is not Allah very much in touch with Islam? Are you not asking Allah to reveal to you even now things you do not see? Do you not write them down if Allah does show you something. Like what you are typing today?
For if Allah has revealed one tiny thing to anyone since Mohammad, That was not the last Revelation. And there never will be a Last Revelation, “World without end.”
I do not accept the writings of the New Testament writers, Till I have searched them out with what God said Jesus would do to the Jot and Tittle.
Even the Old Testament prophecies have to be searched out to find the correct meanings, seeing God uses Similitudes, and hides mysteries.
And Allah uses the same things, And hides things using the same methods. The Jewish Nation can not see Jesus as God’s Son, Neither can Islam. Mohammad said if Allah were to beget a Son, He would be the First to worship Him, You want to be Second, if Allah has begotten a Son?
Ken +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-21-07, 07:43 AM Ken1Burton Bik74
QUR'AN 4:157 That they said in boast, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. QUR'AN 4:158 Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
Allah is speaking of things the Jewish people thought and said, That They killed Him, that They crucified Him. And bragging of being able and having the power to do that to Jesus.
Was it not God who did both? Did not God give Jesus the power to lay down His life, and to take it up again. Where then did they think? They were powerful enough to do these things, and to brag how powerful they were?
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Peter is speaking error, Jesus had all sin, They were without fault.
Jeremiah made the same Mistake, of seeing the Wicked destroying the righteous. Not seeing Jesus has taken their wickedness and rendered to them, His Righteousness. That is why all our righteousness is as filthy rags, Jesus gave us His.
Jeremiah 12:1 Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously? 2 Thou hast planted them, yea, they have taken root: they grow, yea, they bring forth fruit: thou art near in their mouth, and far from their reins. 3 But thou, O LORD, knowest me: thou hast seen me, and tried mine heart toward thee: pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, and prepare them for the day of slaughter.
The Sheep are the Wicked. (We all as Sheep have gone astray, Isaiah 53:6) And Jeremiah sees as most people see. He is looking at a vision of the day of the Cross. Seeing the People wicked, and Jesus righteous. Not seeing as God sees with Jesus having upon Himself all of our righteousness.
So when Jesus rendered to man His righteousness, The Sheep then are credited with feeding the Hungry, Clothing the naked, Visiting the sick and in prison. The Goats seen as if they had not been cast off in Zechariah 10:3/6.
Here is the Cute part, Hell seen as never full, So they fed the hungry, Hell seen as naked before Him, So they clothed the naked, Sin seen as sickness and hell as a prison, So they visited the sick and in prison.
Some things look impossible to do. Like how does Scripture say?
Job 22:6 For thou hast taken a pledge from thy brother for nought, and stripped the naked of their clothing.
To strip the Naked has to be a nice trick. Unless Hell being naked before Him, and God sets them all free. Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Zechariah 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
The Lamb is slain from the Foundation of the World, which is the New World which began the day of the Cross, and the Sheep enter the Kingdom prepared for them from the Foundation of the World, or from the day of the Cross.
So by Grace are we saved, Through Faith, and that not of ourselves, (Jesus gave us His Faith as part of His righteousness.) That is why Jesus took the Baptism of repentance from John the Baptizer. He did not need it, He was preparing the Righteousness we needed.
So that Faith is a gift of God, and the Gifts and Callings of God is without repentance.
Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.
Many do not want the Gift God gives, Too bad, You will live also because Jesus took our sins upon Himself, and under the law in Deuteronomy 24:16 every Man is put to death for His own sins. So they had to BELONG to Jesus at Golgotha.
Ken +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-21-07, 07:48 AM Ken1Burton Bik74
QUR'AN 4:157 That they said in boast, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. QUR'AN 4:158 Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
Allah is speaking of things the Jewish people thought and said, That They killed Him, that They crucified Him. And bragging of being able and having the power to do that to Jesus.
Was it not God who did both? Did not God give Jesus the power to lay down His life, and to take it up again. Where then did they think? They were powerful enough to do these things, and to brag how powerful they were?
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Peter is speaking error, Jesus had all sin, They were without fault.
Jeremiah made the same Mistake, of seeing the Wicked destroying the righteous. Not seeing Jesus has taken their wickedness and rendered to them, His Righteousness. That is why all our righteousness is as filthy rags, Jesus gave us His.
Jeremiah 12:1 Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously? 2 Thou hast planted them, yea, they have taken root: they grow, yea, they bring forth fruit: thou art near in their mouth, and far from their reins. 3 But thou, O LORD, knowest me: thou hast seen me, and tried mine heart toward thee: pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, and prepare them for the day of slaughter.
The Sheep are the Wicked. (We all as Sheep have gone astray, Isaiah 53:6) And Jeremiah sees as most people see. He is looking at a vision of the day of the Cross. Seeing the People wicked, and Jesus righteous. Not seeing as God sees with Jesus having upon Himself all of our iniquity.
So when Jesus rendered to man His righteousness, The Sheep then are credited with feeding the Hungry, Clothing the naked, Visiting the sick and in prison. The Goats seen as if they had not been cast off in Zechariah 10:3/6.
Here is the Cute part, Hell seen as never full, So they fed the hungry, Hell seen as naked before Him, So they clothed the naked, Sin seen as sickness and hell as a prison, So they visited the sick and in prison.
Some things look impossible to do. Like how does Scripture say?
Job 22:6 For thou hast taken a pledge from thy brother for nought, and stripped the naked of their clothing.
To strip the Naked has to be a nice trick. Unless Hell being naked before Him, and God sets them all free. Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Zechariah 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
The Lamb is slain from the Foundation of the World, which is the New World which began the day of the Cross, and the Sheep enter the Kingdom prepared for them from the Foundation of the World, or from the day of the Cross.
Ken.
So by Grace are we saved, Through Faith, and that not of ourselves, (Jesus gave us His Faith as part of His righteousness.) That is why Jesus took the Baptism of repentance from John the Baptizer. He did not need it, He was preparing the Righteousness we needed.
So that Faith is a gift of God, and the Gifts and Callings of God is without repentance.
Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.
Many do not want the Gift God gives, Too bad, You will live also because Jesus took our sins upon Himself, and under the law in Deuteronomy 24:16 every Man is put to death for His own sins. So they had to BELONG to Jesus at Golgotha. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-21-07, 11:16 AM philalethist
quote: So that Faith is a gift of God, and the Gifts and Callings of God is without repentance
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
You still have to learn to rightly divide it.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
When it comes time to fight some are found on their knees as with Gidion in choosing those whom were worthy. John 8:31-32. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-21-07, 03:31 PM Ken1Burton Philalethist.
Faith comes by hearing, and Hearing by the Word of God.
Good, As we read, We hear the words in our head. Our minds thinking. Job 33:26 shows He rendered to man His righteousness, Which is for Jesus on the Cross, Just after the Prophecy for the one called the Good Thief, and before the prophecy for Judas repenting.
It was Christ’s faith in God that saved us. For that FAITH is not of ourselves. But it is given as a Gift from God to mankind.
quote: When it comes time to fight some are found on their knees as with Gidion in choosing those whom were worthy. John 8:31-32.
Whom were Worthy? Jesus is the Living Water, God used those who lapped their tongues at the Water. Not those who bowed down to the water. God uses those who spoke against Jesus the day of the Cross for the Battle.
They are called GOATS. And seen in Zechariah 10:6 as if they had not been cast off.
Zechariah 10:3 Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.
Judges 7:5 So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink. 6 And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water. 7 And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.
God speaks in Similitudes, (Hosea 12:10) Some are not too hard to figure out.
The day of the Cross, Did God use the Believers in Christ to do His works, or those who hated Jesus without a cause? Those who lapped their tongue at the Living water.
The ones with Gideon who bowed the knees were sent home.
Ken +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-21-07, 04:14 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton: You said “We have Quran the Revelation, and Quran the Book.”? Are we talking the Same BOOK? The one Mohammad wrote down, Called “The Holy Quran.”? or are you speaking of two different books? Given to Islam?
I am talking about one book. What I am saying is that Allah (God) did not reveal/deliver a book to Muhammed, Jesus or Moses (God bless them all). God spoke to them , may it be through the Gebraiel, direct talk or the Holy Spirit. The prophets then spoke those words to the people who then recorded them. The message that prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) received was called Quran and compiled as one book.
The point to think does Quran or the Bible contain anything human OR did it miss out any of the message from God. ________________________________________
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton: Consider the Opposite, If we discover a Very old Bible (Old Testament) that is exactly like it is today, Will Islam drop it’s claims the Scriptures have been altered?
Question reversed.... though i think you did not answer mine. If we find a bible 3,000 years old AND the work done on it is not behind closed doors but open infront of members from every party, I will try to be be more open towards the idea that bible never got changed , or got changed to a minimum (even though it contradicts my belief). +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-21-07, 04:25 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton: And Allah uses the same things, And hides things using the same methods. The Jewish Nation can not see Jesus as God’s Son, Neither can Islam. Mohammad said if Allah were to beget a Son, He would be the First to worship Him, You want to be Second, if Allah has begotten a Son?
I do not know of the above quote, but atleast there is an 'if' to it.
Ken, the most commonly read Bible are the KJV & RSV versions. RSV version to my knowledge says that KJV has grave errors in it.
Now I have said this before to christians and atheists over here. Normally when i tell them that Quran says this and this about so & so, the general comment that comes, is that Muhammed (peace be upon him) borrowed the idea from christian and jews arround him.
The fact is Muhammed (peace be upon him) an illiterate brought a message that GOD does not BEGET a son. The idea that Jesus is God's begotten son is the core of christanity. Muhammed (peace be upon him) disagreed with it 1400 years ago. 1350 years later christains themselves came up with a bible - revised standrd version. Most notable change, the word 'BEGOTTEN' removed for any prophet. Thats what I know. The newly translated bible now agrred with Quran, unfortunately not the christain belief.
From the above we can only have 3 reasonable conclusions:
1 Very very big coincidence 2 Muhammed was more learnt in the bible than any other human in the past 1400 years 3 Muhammed was indeed inspired from God
May Allah bless his soul. I hope you get the above point. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-21-07, 04:50 PM bik74 You have said some interesting things, some I agree and some i have a different view.
003.007 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. _______________________________________
You proberbly know that we muslims do believe in the miraculous birth of Jesus (peace be upon him) and that he indeed was the promised maseeha to the jews. We do not offcourse believe that he was divine and came to die for the sins of mankind.
When you use the word son for him, to my memory the word son is described in the Bible itself and is something used for other prophets as well. So when you go as per word 'son of God' being figurative 'someone who loves God and follows His will', it proberbly is the same as a Islamic phrase for Muhammed 'servant of Allah'.
Aa per our belief all the prophets were muslims and followed Islam. _____________________________________________
Ken you said this: When you list the Quran as the last Revelation from God, Did He die after He gave Mohammad those words? Leave the Universe? Turn His back for eternity from mankind? ___________________________________
003.144 Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.
We muslims are to follow the law from Allah to the best of our abilities. What happens after death to an individual, no one knows for sure. There are sayings of the holy prophet where he said he would plead the case for muslims on the judgement day... but the final decision rests only and only with Allah. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-21-07, 05:05 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton: God says a lot of hidden things in the Bible, and the Quran, Who is doing this revealing? Or shows the REVELATION of the meaning? Is not Allah very much in touch with Islam? Are you not asking Allah to reveal to you even now things you do not see? Do you not write them down if Allah does show you something. Like what you are typing today? For if Allah has revealed one tiny thing to anyone since Mohammad, That was not the last Revelation. And there never will be a Last Revelation, “World without end.”
I do at times seek guidance from Allah just like many others and proberbly there are people out there more learned in relegion than others. Being men of faith we all say that it is indeed Allah who guides. The guidance does not have to be a new law but how to imply the old law 'Islam' under new conditions. If i do see things or something clicks in my mind, it can be from Allah or still just be my delusion/mistake. The important thing would be to stay humble, continue repenting and try improving ones treatment to others.
Peace be upon you. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-21-07, 11:40 PM Ken1Burton Bik74
There are a lot of the Ancient Manuscripts in Museums all over the World, In Moslem countries as well, and a lot of searching ancient ruins going on all the time. Like the Dead Sea Scrolls. Many will be found. Mankind is making a lot of advances in searching for things underground.
Like the Satellite picture that shows the Hidden space in the Sphinx. I think if the older Scriptures were changed, Islam could provide the proof with what they already possess. A lot of discoveries have been made, But no evidence has been shown.
The Book of Isaiah is one book, the Book of Jeremiah is another, Daniel, Hosea, not much different then the Quran. They agree with one another. They bear witness to events which were to come concerning the Messiah. And all those different witnesses do not contradict each other.
To change them, First you would have to change every copy of any one of the Books. That would be a giant undertaking in itself .
If I were to say the Quran has been changed to read something else. Then it would be expected of me being the Accuser to provide proof, Where is the Proof the Scriptures have been changed to read differently?
I am not talking of all the Paraphrase Versions people made to get their own Copyright. Those exist of the Quran translations also, at least into English. I have four different translations into English, they are not all identical. But there does not seem to be a attempt to change it’s meaning. Just good translations and poor translations.
It is not in finding an Older Bible, But what the Older Bible says and can be shown to have been fulfilled as any prophecies. And that is something to be looked at Close.
But knowing the Books of the Old Testament existed before the events of Jesus, then having those prophecies come true is what shows God inspired the Scriptures and Jesus is the One He sent.
For the New Testament is not really a book of many prophecies, More a book showing things which were done at the time of Christ.
The Old Testament contains the Prophecies, and the Jewish people are witnesses they existed before Jesus started His earthly Ministry, and have not been changed to fit Jesus. So it is the Old Testament which Shows God is, But His ability to do these things, and that Jesus is who He sent by fulfilling them in Christ.
What real witness does the Quran have? Did God lay out of events of future generations? What would happen on a certain day so we could see God had to be the only One able to reveal such things?
The Ten commandments were already given, God rested on the seventh day. It had nothing to do with being tired, It was God prepared a world, and made this His Home, or Rested here.
Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
How much of your beliefs have been searched out? Jews read the Old Testament and do not see Jesus there. Could Allah have hidden Jesus in the Quran? As well.
If Allah wanted a Son, He could just declare one. He did:
Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
God said He would raise up David’s son to be His Own, Like adopted.
That is the Birth of the Body of Christ the day of the Cross, and God accepting it as His own.
If any were to preach that Allah would beget a Son, They preach a monsterous falsehood
Ever wonder what Allah had that in the Future tense? Instead of “If any preach Allah has begotten a Son.” Which would seem normal seeing Jesus was 600 years earlier.
Did you know God sent a Lying Spirit? The Similitude is to have Ahab go up and die in Battle. But it is so Jesus goes up to Calvary and dies to fulfill Scripture, Because God likened all the Different prophecies to Lies till they are fulfilled, and not till they are fulfilled.
1-Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him , and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
All prophecies are seen as LIES, Till they are fulfilled. So if any were to preach Allah would beget a Son, It is a lie, UNLESS that comes to pass, So you know it was of God, and not just of man. But it is a lie when it would be said “Allah would” as a future event.
Allah asked Jesus if He said He was the Son of God. Jesus answered “No.” Now, Ask Allah this. “DID YOU Speak Through Jesus and say those words?” For Jesus spoke the words God gave Him to speak. The Words do not belong to the messenger, But to the One who sent the Messenger.
Isaiah 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant? 20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. 21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
QUR'AN 43:81 Say: "If God Most Gracious had a son, I would be the first to worship.
Jesus is an “IF” to all mankind, Seek and ye shall find.
While we are on earth that is. After we leave this earthly body, The “IF” is waiting to take us Home.
I use the KJV. Mainly as I wanted to use one main version, So to keep from trying to find the words I remember from a verse and looking in a different version then the one who had it in.
Also I have been using Computers for about 27 years, They were Slow, No hard drives, and very expensive. There were few Bible Programs. King James Version was one of the Few. They also had KJV in pocket form, Which was great at searching the Scripture. So I stuck with that version, And once you get used to the KJV, The Wording is seen as really nice in 1611 English.
Who desires the 23rd Psalms in anything but the KJV.
I have an early computer program on the Quran, On an old 5 1/4 inch floppy. Which was efore they had hard drives and you had to keep switching the disks.
I also have a Copy of the Revised Standard Version. They took the KJV and compared it to as many of the oldest manuscripts they had available, Translations in 1611 was not to bad, They found a few errors and corrected them. KJV does say it did the best they could at translating what was available.
It is not so much the Translation, Which is not bad, But the King Authorized the Bible to be written in the People’s language, and allowed them to have and share them. With was punishable by death, usually by burning to death before.
And they burnt believers by the thousands.
The Revised Standard Version does list in the preface that there were grave defects, Mainly due to having much older manuscripts available then the ones the King James Version was based on. I do not see much difference. It would have been nice to list the Differences they call Grave in a list.
I will stick to the KJV, I use the RSV for reference. I think I have only found two places where the KJV had contradictions, and the RSV showed the wording was wrong, so no contradiction existed.
My Copy of the RSV is revised in 1952, There were earlier revisions, I will write this as it shows in this version: First for the KJV.
Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Now for the Revised Standard Version”
Psalms 2:6 I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill. Psalms 2:7 I will tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to me, “You are my son, today I have begotten you.
Both “Begotten” both by decree. And both saying the same thing.
God accepting Jesus the day of the Cross when He fulfilled the prophecies as His Son, and we are in that Body born the day of the Cross.
You would have to expect people to see many of the things the Quran says as having already been seen in the Bible. The Quran mentions many of the Prophets, Etc. Some of the Stories are different. Abraham does not attempt to offer Isaac, But Ishmael. No problem with that as far as me, If God wrote another book to Women only, Abraham might have taken Sarah. It is a Similitude. God used a person the reader could relate to.
Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Jesus came to the House of Israel, the House of Israel did not receive Jesus, Jesus had to shake off the dust from His feet, or cast off the Disciples. That which was dear to Him, Like offering your son. Abraham is Midnight to Sunrise, Horror of great darkness is Jesus took sins then.
Song of Solomon 5:3 I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them?
Drinking Blood, even in Similitude separated you from His people
Leviticus 7:27 Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
“Take, Drink, This is My Blood.”
I will cast off the first two conclusions, and I have no problem with the Quran being inspired. Children were seen no different then slaves when young, they had to be accepted as Sons, or they stayed as slave status. So the “This day have I begotten Thee.” is not really a strange wording. Jesus had reached the point where God accepted Him as His own.
No physical relationship other then God is the Creator of all life, Just that God is pleased with the Person Jesus is. And stated it. Did not Pharaoh set Joseph over all Egypt? God and Allah (Names are the same person) speaks in Similitudes. Why take offence with the word Begotten? It is no different then accepting one as your son, who was not your physical child, But your love for them is as if they were.
God speaks in Similitudes, Through Jesus in Parables, and has mysteries hidden in Scripture till you search with your whole heart to Find God.
God gave a Promise to David, That He would raise up David’s son, Which would proceed out of David’s bowels, so a normal child. And that He would build a house for God, (similitude) and God would be the child’s Father, and He would be His Son.
Christianity can not link the Child to David. Two different genealogies, Both going to Joseph. (Allowed under Jewish law, Husband died leaving no heir, Next of Kin took the wife and raised up a heir for the dead man, Two genealogies, One physical, one legal for inheritance.
There is no genealogy for Mary exists, So some claim God came down, Kind of Candy coats it, and moves Jesus from a man to Something much greater. Neither God nor Jesus is toast, and they do not need to be buttered up.
Jesus spoke of coming down from Heaven. But He also spoke of Children, that their angels do always behold the Face of the Father.
The Promise to David:
2-Samuel 7:11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
So After David is dead, God will set up David’s physical son, Solomon became King while David was alive so is not the one, Nor any who David already had before the Promise “Shall proceed.”
God uses that which is despised, By man, that is.
Next Child after the Promise is conceived outside wedlock to Bathsheba . God’s law forbid a child from being put to death for what a Parent did (Deuteronomy 24:16)
God sends a Parable to David about taking Bathsheba:
2-Samuel 12:4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
David took Bathsheba to prepare for the WAYFARING MAN” or the promise of the Messiah is what Jesus came to David.
Jeremiah 14:8 O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?
Jesus is the Wayfaring Man David took Bathsheba to prepare for. The Child dies seven days after Brith, Goes to God, With God for 1,000 years, fulfill 10 Generations or the law of them born outside wedlock (God makes this look like He despises such Children. He did not say He was the Father of the fatherless for nothing)
Jesus is REBORN at Bethlehem to Mary, Mary does not have to be of the House of David, the Child does.
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
First begotten of the Dead as a PRINCE. Jesus went to the Cross as a King.
Wise men were Kings, They knew the Promise to David, They knew the Child born outside wedlock was the one, and they were Bible students, not astrologers. Isaiah 60:22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
They knew through Scripture, Who was to Come, What to ride on, What to bring, and what the Sign was of His coming, Stars for a sign, the Sign was the Brightness of the Moon:
Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Now the first part of Chapter 60 shows a Similitude for Bethlehem, and tells them what they need to know, Christianity will not use the verses, It starts with the Word “ARISE” and that is from the Dead, Kind of hard to claim God came down with “Arise.”
Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. 6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.
Kings come to the Brightness of Thy rising, They come on Dromedaries, They bring Gold and Incense, Frankincense and Myrrh.
God hides the Moon, So they went to Jerusalem, Because they knew “This man was Born there” and the Child born to David was born at Zion, and the Body of Christ would be born there the day of the Cross.
Psalms 87:5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. 6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
Zion was a Castle at Jerusalem, Destroyed later. I assume on the Hill outside the gate, the Hill called Calvary.
I use the “Reese Chronological Bible.” for dates, David’s child born outside wedlock was 1004 B.C. Jesus reborn at Bethlehem 4 B.C. our calendar is four years off.
God knows who is searching, and God knows how to show and reveal things. I assume there are prayers God just waits to hear. Those asking for the lessons needed to help others, etc.
I see Scripture as showing what happens after a person dies. And all are saved by grace. Jesus had to fulfill all the prophecies, and making an end of sin, and bringing in everlasting righteousness is one of those things fulfilled at Calvary.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
We can deny God all we want here, But the Gates of Heaven have been broken down (He openeth, and no man shutteth.) And those gates have a great power, it is called Attitude adjustment. Kind of hard to deny God then, Isn’t it?
God used Jesus to eliminate any obstacle from each of us getting to Heaven, He is more then able to deal with each of us there. And those out of hell are by the gates telling of the Love and Mercy of God. Some will not want to go in for awhile, Some will be too ashamed to go in for awhile. So God has provided ones who know how great His love is.
We all have Eternity with God in Heaven. God is able to deal with each of us in love. And those who are forgiven more, will loveth more.
Ken +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-22-07, 02:00 AM tsaeb
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton: Faith comes by hearing, and Hearing by the Word of God.
Good, As we read, We hear the words in our head. Our minds thinking.
Speak for yourself and all those who cannot hear God's voice, because they are spiritually deaf to the leading of the Holy Spirit. All these spritually deaf ones should not be teaching, because they teach falsehoods. Also, they should not be prophesying, because they prophesy falsehoods. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 04-22-07, 06:20 AM philalethist
quote: Originally posted by Ken1Burton: Philalethist.
Faith comes by hearing, and Hearing by the Word of God.
Judges 7:5 So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink. 6 And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water. 7 And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.
The ones with Gideon who bowed the knees were sent home.
Ken
If one were to be a doer of the word they would be able to figure out why those who bowed their knees where sent home. Try it once and you can not see anything around you while in that possition. But those who lapped water like dogs from their hands were aware of all that was going on around them.
Job 11:6 And that he would show thee the secrets of wisdom, that they are double to that which is!
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 8Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? 9Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? 10Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. 11Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. 12Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. 13Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. 14Then will I also confe
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