6 Herds of camels will cover your land,
young camels of Midian and Ephah.
And all from Sheba will come,
bearing gold and incense
and proclaiming the praise of the LORD.

7 All Kedar'sflocks will be gathered to you,
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
and I will adorn my glorious temple.

8 "Who are these that fly along like clouds,
like doves to their nests?

9 Surely the islands look to me;
in the lead are the ships of Tarshish, [a]
bringing your sons from afar,
with their silver and gold,
to the honor of the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor.

10 "Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
in favor I will show you compassion.


_____________________________________

whats the general interpretation of the above verses.... (among jews and christians)? Is it not refering to the muslims builiding the current Mosque in Jerusalem? or is it something not yet happened ?

This prophecy has not yet come to pass. It will be interpreted in the KJV.

This is a prophecy of the triumph of Israel over the rest of the world, as Jehovah promised long before Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. The Zionists who formed the state of Israel are preparing the way for the fulfillment of this prophecy.

This (and oil) is why the Palestinians were driven from their ancestral lands by a coalition of European nations and the United States, using the U.N. as a cat's paw.

The preceding verses say:

1 Arise, shine; For your light has come! And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you. 2 For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people; But the Lord will arise over you, And His glory will be seen upon you. 3 The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising. 4 "Lift up your eyes all around, and see: They all gather together, they come to you; Your sons shall come from afar, And your daughters shall be nursed at your side. 5 Then you shall see and become radiant, And your heart shall swell with joy; Because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you, The wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you.

So the gentiles (including the Christian and Islamic adherents) will play their part in bringing this prophecy to pass.

Here are the following verses:

11 Therefore your gates shall be open continually; They shall not be shut day or night, That men may bring to you the wealth of the Gentiles, And their kings in procession. 12 For the nation and kingdom which will not serve you shall perish, And those nations shall be utterly ruined. 13 "The glory of Lebanon shall come to you, The cypress, the pine, and the box tree together, To beautify the place of My sanctuary; And I will make the place of My feet glorious. 14 Also the sons of those who afflicted you Shall come bowing to you, And all those who despised you shall fall prostrate at the soles of your feet; And they shall call you The City of the Lord, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 "Whereas you have been forsaken and hated, So that no one went through you, I will make you an eternal excellence, A joy of many generations. 16 You shall drink the milk of the Gentiles, And milk the breast of kings; You shall know that I, the Lord, am your Savior And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 17 "Instead of bronze I will bring gold, Instead of iron I will bring silver, Instead of wood, bronze, And instead of stones, iron. I will also make your officers peace, And your magistrates righteousness. 18 Violence shall no longer be heard in your land, Neither wasting nor destruction within your borders; But you shall call your walls Salvation, And your gates Praise. 19 "The sun shall no longer be your light by day, Nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you; But the Lord will be to you an everlasting light, And your God your glory. 20 Your sun shall no longer go down, Nor shall your moon withdraw itself; For the Lord will be your everlasting light, And the days of your mourning shall be ended. 21 Also your people shall all be righteous; They shall inherit the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified. 22 A little one shall become a thousand, And a small one a strong nation. I, the Lord, will hasten it in its time."

Christians co-opted this section, claiming the prophecy did not apply to Zion, but to them.
It's interesting that the three major religions that hold these prophecies sacred each believe they will have great earthly wealth and power.

Of course Christians will have to sort out among themselves just which sect will hold the real power. The Roman Catholic pope has made a very strong claim, to the right to rule the world.

I don't know what a camel is worth these days, but if you have a multitude of them, that's bound to be worth some serious money. Mind you, if I were a Zionist, I'd be putting a major marketing effort into promoting camel meat as a table item. That is where their value would lie these days. As a means of transport, they have pretty much been displaced by trucks, trains and planes.

Funny the prophet doesn't mention the oil. It's worth a lot more than any amount of camel meat.

Lebanon doesn't export much cypress, pine or boxwood these days.

"Pearls, precious stones and metals are Lebanon's major export items, accounting for more than 30% of the total in 2003. Other major export items include electrical equipment (12% of the total), processed food (10%), and chemicals (8%) and base metals (8%). In terms of destinations, Switzerland is by far the largest buyer of Lebanese goods, taking up a 36% share of the total, followed by Iraq (12%), Syria (10%), UAE (10%) and Saudi Arabia (10%)." Lebanon's exports by products, 2003.

Still, it would only take one piece of each type of the specified wood to fulfill the prophecy.

I don't know how Muslims interpret it, but I would assume they claim it applies to Muslims who will triumph and rule the world.

I guess the rest of us will just have to wait and see.

quote:

Originally posted by babthrower:
I don't know how Muslims interpret it, but I would assume they claim it applies to Muslims who will triumph and rule the world.

Muslims generally dont even know about the above verses and generally dont do any bible reading...

I quoted them as i believe the above is not somthing that will happen BUT has already happened.

Kedar's flock...... that refers to Ismaiel's (peace be upon him) descendants and so the bulk of the prophecy related to them. They are the ones who will built the place of worship..... this is something that has allready happened.
The prophecy is not about the triumph of Israel over the rest of the world but acceptance of Jerusalem as a holy place by the rest of the world. The rest of the world have also been defined....

Kedar's, Midian's , people from Ephah and people from Sheba ....


The only reasonable explaination (unfortunately)a christian or a jew can give is that this is something that will happen.

Bik, you claim this has already happened?

quote:

For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people ...

quote:

That men may bring to you the wealth of the Gentiles...

quote:

And their kings in procession...

quote:

Also the sons of those who afflicted you Shall come bowing to you...

quote:

You shall drink the milk of the Gentiles, And milk the breast of kings...

quote:

Violence shall no longer be heard in your land, Neither wasting nor destruction within your borders

You claim this has all come to pass for the Zionists, if you're Muslim?

I must have slept right through the 11 o'clock news!

I dont know what r u trying to say with some selected quotes. All the references are when muslims conquered jerusalem some 1400 years ago.


for instance when u quote this :

Also the sons of those who afflicted you Shall come bowing to you.....


Who destroyed the Jewish temple ? Once the Babylon (Iraq) and then the Romans. The Roman destruction did not take place at the time of Isaiah... so the sons of those that afflicted you refers to Babylon who ultimately became muslims and ALSO paid their homeage when muslims built the thrid temple.... the one that still is present today. Which part is confusing here ? Kings or tribal leaders most of them came under Islam and paid their due homeage to the holy place.
The rest of the quotes are figurative and applying them to muslims is very easy....

Too easy, Bik. The rest of the quotes are very literal. Prophets do not toy with those whom they address. To 'play' figuratively would be to insult the source of the prophecy which would be the god.

The Christian literal interpretation is:

quote:

This was fulfilled when the king of Persia, and the governors of the provinces by his order, were aiding and assisting Nehemiah in building the wall about Jerusalem.

This is better than your interpretation because it speaks of 'walls' not the temple.

But if we allow figurative interpretation, here is the Christian interpretation of 10:

quote:

this is accomplished in them that serve Christ, being converted by his gospel.

If you wish to interpret the prophesy figuratively, then you must accept that the Christian interpretation of the rebuilt temple is just as correct as your version:

You can rebuttal and play as you like......
but verses such as
You shall drink the milk of the Gentiles, And milk the breast of kings ...OR
For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people .....

are nothing but figurative. There is no possible literal meaning of it.

_________________________________________
your quote :
The Christian literal interpretation is:
quote:
This was fulfilled when the king of Persia, and the governors of the provinces by his order, were aiding and assisting Nehemiah in building the wall about Jerusalem.

is actually a good one... even though the provinces under Cyrus ie the people of Iraq under Cyrus themselves never worshipped ONE GOD.
Atleast now you are looking in the past for the answers. You still forget..... Kedar's flock
. This part was only fulfilled through Islam. There is no possible interpretation for this.....

Walls of Jerusalem....in verse 10 BUT temple in verse 7. Walls... for guarding Jerusalem and the well being of its people and temple for worship.

Well that's the whole problem with interpreting prophesy. The interpreters select from it what is in agreement with their own views, and what they do not agree with is called 'figurative'.

That is why from Judaism you have Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Hasidism, and Kabbalah.

In Islam you have Sunni, Shi'ite, Sufi, Druze, Nation of Islam, and Ahmadiyya

In Christianity you have two major divisions, Catholic and Protestant; but each division is in turn divided into sects.

Each deciding as they wish what is literally true, and what is merely figuratively true, in the texts and translations they prefer.

Your example that no one can drink the milk of kings is arbitrary. If a virgin can give birth, and a man can rise from the dead, why could not a king breastfeed his favorite people?

And your god could not bring darkness to the earth if he chose? Do you try to limit the god's power to perform miracles?

quote:

Originally posted by babthrower:
Each deciding as they wish what is literally true, and what is merely figuratively true, in the texts and translations they prefer.

well so far what ever i have written in these posts to my memory nothing was explained figuratively.

Your demand to show literal meanings of phrases like 'drink the milk of the Gentiles' OR 'the darkness shall cover the earth'...... are basically answers/queries and rebuttals only for the sake of answers/queries and rebuttals. Atheism claiming to be revoloving arround science, logic and common sense.... i did have better expectations. My mistake.

Bik, you are approximately as adept at divining my methods and my agenda as you are at interpreting O.T. prophecies. Good luck in your search for truth.

quote:

Originally posted by babthrower:
Bik, you are approximately as adept at divining my methods and my agenda as you are at interpreting O.T. prophecies.

Finally a comment from Bab i can really relish.

Again you interpret according to your innermost desires. Not unlike Croesus, king of Lydia, who interpreted a Delphic prophecy according to his innermost desires rather than more skeptically. I hope yours works for you better than his did for Croesus!

We skeptics are harder to lead around by the nose.

All the old Testament prophecies were fulfilled the day of the Cross:

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

But there are similitudes for the Prophecies, But Fulfillment was the day of the Cross.

God promised David He would raise up David’s son, according to the flesh, the next child seen in Scripture was conceived with Bathsheba while she was still Uriah’s wife. Under the law, Such a Child could not enter the Congregation, even till the tenth generation.

As God used a 100 year generation in speaking of Israel in Egypt, That is 1,000 years, The Child died 7 days after Birth, Is REBORN at Bethlehem after 1,000 years, that is 1004 B.C. to 4 B.C. when Jesus is Born to Mary, But Reborn is the correct word.

Isaiah 60:22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

That is the last verse in Isaiah Chapter 60, But the first verse in 61 is a real nice one. It was read by Jesus when He started His Ministry:

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

So Isaiah
Chapter 60 starts with the word “ARISE” which is ARISE from the Dead. As all children go to God at death, Jesus also is SENT FROM HEAVEN.

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.

Kings come to the Brightness of Thy raising (Brightness of the Moon in Isaiah 60:19 is what the Wise Men (Kings) were following), they knew the prophecy for David, Knew when the Child died, Knew it was this Child, and knew it would be a thousand years, Knew the Brightness of the Moon was what to follow, Knew who should follow, and knew to bring Gold and Incense or Frankincense and Myrrh. And knew to come on Camels.


Now for a little Footnote, You want to think on Temples? Better remember there is a Temple seen in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 40:4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

NOTE: TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

Not to Islam, Not to Christianity. Fulfilled the day of the Cross, But the Future similitude is for 2029 A.D. and it is to the House of Israel. When the House of Israel sees that Jesus is the Messiah, and puts the Scriptures in the Correct order. And most of the World will follow them. God shows only a few holdouts.

Ken

I love it the way you guys keep vindicating my posts! I had said that Bik selected only the verses from the prophecy that seemed to support Islam; I quoted the entire chapter to show what Bik had omitted.

Now someone from the 'other side' comes in and selects and omits in the same fashion as does his Muslim brother.

Ken says Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1; but Jesus wa not the first, nor the last, to quote only what supported his own chosen position.

Then Ken hits us with the zinger: he brings in another prophet, Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 40:4 "... declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel."

No problem with me there, Ken. Clearly Jehovah was a Jewish god. The promises he made was to the Jews, and not to all sorts from all over the world. Most of the promises about supremacy were suitable for those times. It was feasible that a particular desert people could dream of ruling all of the other middle east 'nations' - to them, 'the world'.

But notice, it was the world that they knew. They were ignorant of the larger world that we know. They didn't even know that the world is a sphere.

The Christians explain this away by saying that the Jews sinned by betraying the messiah; but in the process, they don't explain why Jehovah made the promises to the Jews in the first place, and then reneged. Because Jehovah, if he is a god and not just a deified tribal chief, ought to have predicted that the Jews would deny Jesus as the messiah.

And they had very good reason to do so. He was not a successful messiah. He didn't do what the messiah was supposed to do. He was a great disappointment to the Jews.

This is what Christians can't explain, even after two thousand years. They can't explain why the prophet did not perform as foretold.

The only thing they can do is what Bik has done: select the prophecies that apply most closely; 'explain' that the prophecies did not come about were 'merely figurative'; and just pretend.

quote:

Originally posted by babthrower:
I love it the way you guys keep vindicating my posts! I had said that Bik selected only the verses from the prophecy that seemed to support Islam; I quoted the entire chapter to show what Bik had omitted.

Yes no one can go and see the Bible, access very limited, great deception by me.
I did not sea that u edited one of ur last posts with a demand that 'If a virgin can give birth, and a man can rise from the dead, why could not a king breastfeed his favorite people?' really made my day today. LOL. Thank you. Its always a pleasure to see an atheist all defensive.

KEN you see everything being fulfilled in the cross. Nothing new. But please answer the verse most relevant for my interest. Thats verse 7 of Isaiah 60th chapter.

Sorry, Bik, that was not a late edit. We can't do late edits any more. That is because it makes subsequent posts too confusing.

Defensive? Moi? No, not at all. It is your claim (that the carefully-selected texts you cite as evidence that for only Muslims have fulfilled the prophecy(s)) that is under attack.

See, to an atheist like myself, all this spooky business is equally nonsensical.

So to see Christians and Muslims alike vying to support their own claims to validity by referring to moot prophecies written for ancient Jews, while technically irrelevant to me, still these claims cry out for skeptical analysis; they are a trap for the unwary.

All this world does not need at this time is to have the number of fanatics increase.

Not unless some truly benevolent god were to come and take our nuclear weapons from our idiotic hands. But wishful thinking solves nothing.

So. As I said, spurious claims call out for rebuttal. If you can't deal with that, I know there are lots of sites where you can 'preach to the converted' -- i.e. speak with your fellows who already believe as you do. But on this site, you must expect to have opposing views presented.

So discussing a verse or giving an interpretation of a verse, makes a person fanatic

Its not me that cant deal with ur rebuttals , but its you that cant deal with the interpretations i have given. At ur age i do realise not knowing answers OR especially knowing answers that dont fit ur ideas is very hard.

Careful text selection by little old me....! i rather use the word precision, verses that cannot be explained in more than 2 ways reasonably. Verses where we cant blabber.

Sorry Bab but it was still a late edit... maybe be an edit after 10 minutes but ur original post was ended at 'Each deciding as they wish what is literally true, and what is merely figuratively true, in the texts and translations they prefer'. And i just did not see the examples after that yesterday. Either i was blind or your loosing ur memory with age.
My conclusion still remains :
There is not a single verse in chapter 60 that is not fulfilled under Islam and verse 7 can only be explained as fulfilled by Islam or yet to happen.

Bik says “... but its you that cant deal with the interpretations i have given.”

Au contraire , Bik, it seems to me that I have dealt with them quite nicely already. We’ll let the readers be the judges, shall we?

Bik continues with a fallacious ad hominem (or should I say an ad feminam ?) argument:

“At ur age i do realise not knowing answers OR especially knowing answers that dont fit ur ideas is very hard.”

You don’t get it, do you, Bik? Ageism (like racism and sexism) is the last recourse of a desperate and defeated debater.

Who has said that I am an old woman?

Why, I have said so myself! So do you actually think that you demean or belittle me by calling me ‘granny’ as you have done, and so forth? (Actually I'm a great-grandmother.)

You only degrade yourself. And you display the background that has led you to believe you can score points by such behavior.

Because if I am so disabled by age as you suggest, what does that make you? I handle you quite easily, even though you seem not to realize it.

quote:

Originally posted by babthrower:

Why, I have said so myself! So do you actually think that you demean or belittle me by calling me ‘granny’ as you have done, and so forth? (Actually I'm a great-grandmother.)

Or do you think you demean me or other people of different relegious affiliation and their points by calling them fanatics ? or passing insulting remarks about people i or they hold, dear....!
Oh now trying to play a sympathy card , are'nt we.
No you did not handle me, there was nothing to handle here. I just explained how ridiculous you sound in ur rebuttals and now you are getting all touchy.