In my English translation of these verses, it says:

quote:

Israel could no more cease to be a nation in my sight, says the LORD, than could this fixed order vanish before my eyes…. I could no more spurn the whole of Israel because of what they have done, than anyone could measure the heaven above or fathom the depths of the earth beneath

In the Spanish translation I have, it says:

quote:

Si faltaren estas leyes delante de mí, dice Jehová, también la descendencia de Israel faltará para no ser nación delante de mí eternamente. Así ha dicho Jehová: Si los cielos arriba se pueden medir, y explorarse abajo los fundamentos de la tierra, también yo desecharé toda la descendencia de Israel por todo lo que hicieron, dice Jehová.

So that the non-Spanish speakers can give me their two cents, I'll make an English translation of the Spanish. I'm not good at translation so forgive the choppiness of it - hope it makes sense (maybe Juan will come in and make a pretty translation for you all ):

quote:

If these laws before me were lacking, says Jehova, then the desendents of Israel will be lacking and no longer be an eternal nation before me. Thus Jehova has said: If the skies above can be measured, and the depths of the earth below explored, then I too will undo all of the descents of Israel for all that they have done, says Jehova.

The Spanish version strikes me as quite different. My problem is that I have to explain the view of Israel of those Christians who believe that God continues to hold a very special relationship with Israel and will curse those who curse it and bless those who bless it, etc. to a group of coworkers in Spanish, and this passage is one that some Evangelicals in the US use to support their view that God will never change His special relationship with Israel. The English version appears to say just that, but the Spanish version is less clear: one could say that once the skies and the land have been explored (as they have today), the relationship between God and Israel will no longer hold. Also, while the language in English makes it sound as if the relationship could never change, the language in Spanish makes it sound like a possibility.

So how do I make it clear that the Evangelicals aren't just pulling their beliefs out of nowhere, that they really are being true to what they believe the Bible says? Should I simply state that the English translation is different and appears to have another meaning, or should I make my own translation of the English Biblical version to Spanish, or does anyone know of another Spanish version that is closer to the English version,? Or maybe someone could explain how the Spanish version does indeed support this particular view? What do you all think?

P.S. I am not giving my own relgious perspective nor am I trying to spread any particular belief in this presentation for coworkers (obviously, since I don't share the evangelical view, nor any Christian or Catholic view, nor do I wish to reveal any non-Christian sentiment of my own.) The point is simply to explain why such Evangelicals think as they do, not to judge them or their ideas one way or another, so please don't turn this thread into an argument against Christianity, which will not help me with this presentation. Thanks!

P.P.S

My English source is the Oxford Study Bible, 1999.

My Spanish source is the "Antigua versión de Casiodoro de Reina (1569) revisada por Cipriano de Valera (1602)" with other revisions in 1862, 1909, and 1960.

quote:

Si los cielos arriba se pueden medir, y explorarse abajo los fundamentos de la tierra

This is an interesting rendition. The English makes clear that such a measurement is not possible, therefore Israel will never be abandoned by YHWH. By using the present indicative after the conjunction "si," the verb ceases to indicate a contrary to fact statement, and thereby leaves the possibility open. I'm surprised it wasn't "se pudieran."

Me too, Juan. The Spanish translation just gives a whole different feeling - to me the English translation gives a feeling of love toward the Jews, while the Spanish translation sounds a bit more abivalent, almost ominous.

quote:

while the Spanish translation sounds a bit more abivalent, almost ominous.

Given the translator, the year, and the place, it may not be surprising that the translation offers a threat to the Jews. Spain was one of the most anti-Jewish countries in Europe, despite the enormous contributions Jews had made. This may well be an example of such antipathy.

Well, I ended up giving them the Spanish Biblical version but giving a loose translation of my English Biblical version and said that I couldn't explain the apparent differences in meaning and tone. Everyone thought the difference was very interesting, which it is indeed!

Here is the New World Translation of the the passage in Spanish:

quote:

“‘Si estas disposiciones reglamentarias pudieran ser quitadas de delante de mí —es la expresión de Jehová—, los que son la descendencia de Israel igualmente pudieran cesar de resultar ser nación delante de mí para siempre’”.
Esto es lo que ha dicho Jehová: “‘Si los cielos arriba pudieran medirse, y los fundamentos de la tierra abajo pudieran escudriñarse, también yo mismo podría rechazar a la entera descendencia de Israel por motivo de todo lo que han hecho’, es la expresión de Jehová”.

And in English:

quote:

“‘If these regulations could be removed from before me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘those who are the seed of Israel could likewise cease from proving to be a nation before me always.’”
This is what Jehovah has said: “‘If the heavens up above could be measured and the foundations of the earth below could be searched out, I myself also could reject the entire seed of Israel on account of all that they have done,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

Thanks, Bibleman! Those two translations certainly match each other much better (so much, in fact, that I wonder if one version was translated from the other, rather than both being translated from the original Hebrew?). Either way, it seems to me that it is a very ambiguous passage. Can the heavens be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out? And the use of the passive is interesting, too - if He is talking about Himself, I reckon they can be measured and searched out. If he means by men, then maybe not.