If Christianity were that innocent, Honi, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'm sure there are Christians who are praying every day for harm to come to others. Not only that, but they are actually harming others, because they believe they are fulfilling god's will.
"If God listened to the prayers of men, all men would quickly have perished: for they are forever praying for evil against one another."
A Christian doesn't pray for evil against someone else, so all men wouldn't have perished quickly.
So when Christians on both sides of a war pray to God for help or protection are they not praying for harm or 'evil' to befall the soldiers of their enemy? Or are the deaths of young men, the creation of widows and fatherless children, the unnecessary suffering,the ilnesses, the starvation and all the other unhappy consequences of war and battle not 'evil' in Christian terms ?
I've yet to hear of soldiers praying that the soldiers of the enemy be protected from harm
So when Christians on both sides of a war pray to God for help or protection are they not praying for harm or 'evil' to befall the soldiers of their enemy?
What make you think they pray for help or protection? Maybe they don't, or maybe they just want protection without evil to the other. You know, like peace. Some Christians, in even dire situations, just pray 'Lord, let your will be done'.
Dancegirl, christianity can be innocent if you make it innocent. You have to worry about yourself instead of who's doing wrong. We will be judged according to our own deeds. I don't worry about what Tom, Dick, and Harry are doing, and that why it seems childless when someone is always bi*****g about God's name being here or there. They need to forget the things that's only hurting their ego. They could put atheist on money, in schools, or any freaking where, it wouldn't bother me, and that's what makes it innocent with me.
Well, I could say a lot more, but I believe you get my point.
Posts: 6638 | Location: Land of Lincoln, USA | Registered: 07-04-02
So when Christians on both sides of a war pray to God for help or protection are they not praying for harm or 'evil' to befall the soldiers of their enemy?
What make you think they pray for help or protection? Maybe they don't, or maybe they just want protection without evil to the other. You know, like peace. Some Christians, in even dire situations, just pray 'Lord, let your will be done'.
No point in praying then, if all they are going to ask for is that God's will be done.He will do what he wants anyway, without suggestion or encouragement from mere mortals!
Seems to me that they pray for something rather more positive.Protection 'without evil to the other' would, indeed, be a start. I suppose they leave everyone else, be they the soldiers on their side or the enemy's to do their own praying for protection 'without evil to the other'.'Without evil to the other' is not transparently clear: getting killed would seem pretty bad and 'evil' in the usual way. Pity that not everyone's prayers for protection will be answered. What have the ones who get killed or injured done, or not done,that means that the same god doesn't protect them?
Let's face it, they are going to killed, or not, quite regardless of how devout, or not, they are and whatever they pray for. They still pray, though. Practical factors like the state of their physical protection, their position, the tactics of their leaders and the size, quantity and quality of their armaments, how well they use them (n.b.heathens, atheists and the evil may shoot better than Christians ) make a difference and the difference is fatal.
Praying for peace seems a non-starter too. Their god didn't stop them getting into a war, so why would he be affected by their prayer to end it?
Prayer and faith do serve a purpose. It makes perfect sense that a human would seek comfort and support from faith.That faith is a very present help in times of trouble and it matters not what faith it is.
Honi, the flip side of putting god's name on money, or in schools, etc. is not "putting atheist on"; that makes no sense. The opposite would be to leave god's name and other religious references OFF money, OUT of schools, etc. That is how to separate church and state, as the constitution requires.
Originally posted by dance girl: The bible advocates violence.
When you say this, what precisely do you mean and what is the context of the scripture?
Psalms 11:5 "The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates."
James 1:19,20 "...Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires."
Posts: 7742 | Location: in the backwoods of North Carolina | Registered: 06-07-02
Perhaps an omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent God knows better than Epicurus. We are so limited in our knowledge. Farbeit for me to have an answer for every circumstance, but it is clear that suffering and trials can be to our benefit. Joseph and Job were among those who suffered greatly in the Bible. As the ultimate example, a sinless Son of God suffered and was, essentially, murdered so that we may have eternal life.
Consider:
Psalm 119:71 "It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees."
2 Corinthians 12:7 - 10 "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."
1 Peter 1:6-7 "...though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed."
Galatians 6:2 "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ."
Christians are certainly not promised that they are immune from suffering. Ministries that preach otherwise are misguided.
Posts: 7742 | Location: in the backwoods of North Carolina | Registered: 06-07-02
Originally posted by dance girl: The bible advocates violence.
When you say this, what precisely do you mean and what is the context of the scripture?
Let's start with Leviticus:
20:12: If a man "lies" with his daughter-in-law, then both must be killed.
20:13: Homosexuals must be executed.
24:10-23: A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded."
quote:
Perhaps an omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent God knows better than Epicurus.
Benevolent?
Exodus: 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."
22:24 If you make God angry enough, he will kill you and your family with his own sword.
Leviticus: 23:29-30 Don't do any work on the day of atonement or God will destroy you.
Numbers: 1:51 "The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death."
23:24 God's people will kill like a lion and then "drink the blood of the slain."
A very nice response, dg. The Old Testament is strong stuff! Have you considered the New Covenant:
John 8: 1 - 11 "But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
For God to have so loved the world that He sent his own Son, in the flesh, to die on the cross for our sins is more than sufficient benevolence for me.
For Christians to pray harm on others is a rejection of their own faith. For now I will simply leave you with this:
Colossians 3:12-14: “Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.”
Posts: 7742 | Location: in the backwoods of North Carolina | Registered: 06-07-02
Fr. Alec S Mitchell informs The Times here that " we deserve a few more prophets like Elisha" When Elisha was insulted by some small boys for being bald he cursed them in the name of Yahweh. Two she-bears then came out of the woods and tore 42 of the children to pieces !
John 8: 1 - 11 "But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
But as with other books of the bible, John is full of contradictions, and at the end of the day, is open to varied interpretations. You say god loved the world so much, that he gave his only son. Perhaps look at it this way:
John: 3:16 God had his own son tortured and killed, as an example to parents everywhere?
and
3:36 The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers.
15:6 Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned.
Romans: 1:31-32 Homosexuals (those "without natural affection") and their supporters (those "that have pleasure in them") are "worthy of death."
2 Thessalonians:
1:7-9 Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire."
There are so many examples of violence in the New Testament. But one of the things of most concern is the way the NT supports the Old Testament. In Matthew 5; 18-19 Jesus endorses the entirity of the Old Testament Law:
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Having said this, Fuse, I don't doubt the sincerity of your beliefs. I find what you have to say more interesting than the rhetoric that has been posted here (by some) in the last few months. I look forward to learning about your beliefs. I doubt you'll change my views, but I am genuinely interested in yours. dg
Thanks, dg. I wish I had a thimble full of the knowledge of those who have been through the quest to discover the truth in the apparent contradictions. What I might do is start a thread on what I believe to be at the heart of hatred for Christians: exclusivity. Or has that already been done here?
It is late here, and there is enough in Jesus's fulfillment of the law to have a long discussion. Consider what it means for Jesus to have accomplished His purpose and fulfilled the law. What then happens to the law?
Maybe "Atheism" isn't the best place to post this
Posts: 7742 | Location: in the backwoods of North Carolina | Registered: 06-07-02
I think that's a great idea. I don't hate christians, and I don't see exclusivity as the main concern, atheists, at least, have with christianity. Rather, it is the attitude of some christians, that they have a duty to convert non-believers, and shape our society according to their own beliefs. I think this would make an interesting thread.
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