I'm not familiar with those AA meetings, so I don't know if they all start with a prayer or not. I recently heard an Atheist/non believer in God, who attended one of the meetings complaining about the prayer and refused to go back. He said the prayer wasn't neccessary because it had nothing to do with getting dry (as he put it).

Anyway, if a person wants to get help, why on earth would they complain about the word God in a prayer? How could anyone put their hate for God above their health? It just doesn't make sense to me?
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02-20-05, 10:15 PM
jusork
Yeah, if I was intent on getting sober, I'd just move to the side while they did their thing. I could see how he might get annoyed at everyone at the meeting praying and he didn't want to, but as long as they didn't make it some official portion of the meetings, I wouldn't mind that much. Hopefully, they wouldn't just do it right in front of him and have him just sit and do nothing.

02-21-05, 07:43 AM
juanruiz
Methinks he doth protest too much. Before you can join AA, you have to have a sponsor. One of his responsibilities is to explain the Twelve Steps, one of which is accepting that there is a power greater than yourself. Now AA is careful to say that doesn't mean a divinity; but many do look at the power as that.

02-21-05, 08:48 AM
MommyTimesTwo

quote:
Anyway, if a person wants to get help, why on earth would they complain about the word God in a prayer? How could anyone put their hate for God above their health? It just doesn't make sense to me?



There are people who would do that--put their "principles" above their own health. My mom says, people who stand too strong on their principles can't afford a ladder, by which she means that there are people who throw their "principles" into everything and everyone's faces all the time because they can hide behind their "principles" and blame that for their own failures.

For example, I knew a vegan who was on welfare because "everyone in all the jobs I go to eats meat and I can't stand to watch it!" So they couldn't provide a living for their family because they might at some point see someone eating a sandwhich in the breakroom.

In other words, if your friend there blames AA's prayers for his nonattendance, then it's not his fault that he is an alcoholic. It's theirs, for being "churchy". In other words, a cop out.

02-21-05, 09:18 AM
Professor
A close personal friend of mine goes to AA, and they confirmed exactly what juanruiz said above.

02-21-05, 10:40 AM
GarColga
Being uncomfortable with forced prayer to a deity one doesn't believe in doesn't translate to 'hate'.

Atheists don't hate your god, honilov, they claim that he/she/it doesn't exist!

The spiritual pretensions of AA are laughable anyway.

02-21-05, 12:20 PM
frankvan
Atheists don't hate god (or God) , honi. I just don't believe he/she/it exists. But in answer to your question, I suspect that many alcoholics are only too ready to latch on to any excuse to avoid changing their ways. Probably someone had been nagging him to go and he wasn't ready.

I'm equally sure that even though what Juan says about the sponsorship and one of the required steps being the acknowledgemnt of a "power greater than yourself", the membership probably do start their meetings with a prayer. Theists are all too fond of trying to squeeze their beliefs into every assemblage of people. I suppose it's inevitable if you are sure that God approves of what your doing, you will feel justified in doing it - no matter if one or two others may be offended. I'm afraid that prayers to some unnamed power just hardly ever seem to occur.

Common courtesy prevents me from embarassing my friends and/or associates un-necessarily so I try to keep my beliefs, which I know they do not share, to myself. Belief in God does not excuse callous disregard for others. If the meeting is for religious purposes, or you think you are only supposed to save theists from the ravages of alcoholism, then admit it and tell the agnostics and atheists to go to hell! Where is the poor sinner supposed to go??

02-21-05, 02:24 PM
jusork

quote:
Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo:

There are people who would do that--put their "principles" above their own health. My mom says, people who stand too strong on their principles can't afford a ladder, by which she means that there are people who throw their "principles" into everything and everyone's faces all the time because they can hide behind their "principles" and blame that for their own failures.



Is being too strict with one's priciples necessarily the same as blaming one's priciples for one's problems?

I wonder how many people would rather starve to death than eat a fellow human for food.....

02-21-05, 03:59 PM
honilov
MTT, this man is not my friend, but I know him well. I've paid him on several occasions to wash my car for me. I do believe though, that the prayer is just an excuse because he's not ready to quit drinking.

Frank and GarColga, I'm sorry I used to word 'hate'. That was a bad choice of word. I respect your beliefs but I am so glad that I have God in my life. No, I haven't actually seen him, but I've felt his presence and it's a great feeling. I'm keeping the faith.

If I was an Atheist and an alcoholic, and wanted to get/stay sober, I don't believe the prayer would stop me. I really think it's just a cop out for this man. If I was an Atheist, I believe I could overlook the prayer anywhere except at home. That's why I can't understand all the hoopla about prayer in public places. Prayer ain't hurting nuttin' except pride.

02-21-05, 04:53 PM
juanruiz
An atheist friend of mine was a member of AA for some 20 years, and never let the prayer bother him; for him, the higher power was a tornado. He's still with AA, but converted to Catholicism a couple years ago.

02-21-05, 05:30 PM
juanruiz

quote:
That's why I can't understand all the hoopla about prayer in public places.



Depends on the public place, Honi. If we're talking public school, during class time, I'd have to disagree with you.

02-21-05, 06:33 PM
frankvan
QUOTE: "I wonder how many people would rather starve to death than eat a fellow human for food....."

________________________________________________

What is the principle involved in this case? The opposition to cannibalism, or the opposition to dying when there is an available source of food? I seriously doubt that anyone could reliably predict their reponse to such a situation unless and until they actually experience starvation.

02-21-05, 06:46 PM
frankvan

quote:
I respect your beliefs but I am so glad that I have God in my life. No, I haven't actually seen him, but I've felt his presence and it's a great feeling. I'm keeping the faith.



I respect your belief, honi, and everyone else who has one. My wife of 61 years is a regular church-going, practicing catholic and even though she costs me plenty with her contributions, I wouldn't try to convince her otherwise. Most atheists feel pretty much as I do. We wouldn't try to convert anyone - if only more of them would return the compliment. Can you not see that there is an element of insult in attempts to convert anyone to a different belief if they haven't expressed any dissatisfaction with theirs? Smile

02-21-05, 08:33 PM
FredPuli
1) Nobody joins AA; it is not a club; though for ease of explanation we do talk of 'joining' and 'membership' the 'qualification'is no more than that you think that drink has become a problem to you and you would like some help and support.

2) nobody needs a sponsor to 'join' AA. As I say it is not a club; you don't get proposed for membership. Also AA holds 'open' meetings where anyone, whether drinkers or not, may go and sit in . Otherwise all you need to do is accept that you have a problem and turn up at the door; you'll be welcomed in by the first person you see. Nobody ever took me; I just went and, by the way, I had to have a couple of very stiff drinks at the nearest bar just to pluck up the courage to do that ! Nobody minded that I smelt of booze; everyone there had been the same as me once, all were pleased that I had just come,whether I had come there in some feeble, forlorn hope of help (I had) or not. They had 'been there' too.They wouldn't have cared whether I believed in a god or gods or no god; they did care that I was there though and hoped to end the misery.

In big cities in particular there are often meetings just for absolute novices ; these serve to explain AA and to show that there is nothing to be shy or scared about; but going to an open meeting, with a friend who has no problem at all if you like, can serve just as well.

A lot of people, though, do get a sponsor in time. That is some person who has been sober for a goodly time and who volunteers to help the newcomer. It is entirely optional and you just ask around for one; you then choose someone whom you can get on with and they will stick with you, through tough times and good, always at the end of a phone, always meeting you regularly as you work your way through the twelve steps of the AA program and beyond. Being a drunk is a lonely business, and a friendless one, and it helps enormously to know that there is someone to turn to, someone who has, by definition, been just the same as you and knows and understands exactly what being a drunk is like.

I never had a sponsor; as I say, it is optional.

3) Religion and AA. Well, Britain is a godless, irreligious, country, as you may know. The USA is something else Smile So how do we deal with God in AA ? When AA was founded it was by two men who were Christian, in Christian times, in a Christian country.They, naturally, felt strengthened by faith as they battled the drink. Now, you may imagine that many Britons drink too much, many are in AA and a great many of those have no time for religion or any belief in God. The same surely applies in the USA but, no doubt, is not so obvious. We still have the 'Serenity prayer'though. Here it is (the words vary slightly from place to place because of different local usage of the definite article):

God grant me (the) serenity to accept the things I cannot change, (the) courage to change the things I can and (the) wisdom to know the difference.

In the UK this is recited by all at the end of each meeting. The convention here is to talk not of God but of 'your higher power' but in my own anti-religious way then I just substituted 'May I be granted' for God. The original twelve steps contained five steps which referred to God including one that speaks of giving ourselves to the care of God " as we understand him" ( an attempt to accommodate non-Christians and all sects ).In Britain all this is downplayed. We are encouraged to have faith, the belief, that we shall become and remain drink-free if we keep attending meetings and work the program but whether we appeal to any god to help us is entirely a matter for the individual. People who are Christians or who are religious may find it easier if they can persuade themselves that their God is in there on their side, to support them. ( They do, of course have to accept that their god seems not to have stopped them becoming drunks in the first place, for all their prayers and those of their family...but if it helps, it helps )

Finally, it may be that the individual referred to in the first post was, indeed,genuinely upset by the mentions of God, however made and by the one prayer.

If there's one thing an alcoholic knows it is just how we grasp any excuse for not stopping, just as we grasp at any excuse for starting and any excuse for taking our previous drink. We do of course lie to ourselves, as much as to anyone else. I would be slow to think that a prayer or any reference to God or a higher power in the proceedings, was the true reason . Believe me I've been there !

02-21-05, 09:20 PM
jusork

quote:
Originally posted by frankvan:
QUOTE: "I wonder how many people would rather starve to death than eat a fellow human for food....."

________________________________________________

What is the principle involved in this case? The opposition to cannibalism, or the opposition to dying when there is an available source of food? I seriously doubt that anyone could reliably predict their reponse to such a situation unless and until they actually experience starvation.



I was thinking the principle would be cannibalism, although I suppose the other would work just as well, just flipped.

03-17-06, 06:48 PM
sheanima

quote:
Originally posted by juanruiz: Before you can join AA, you have to have a sponsor. One of his responsibilities is to explain the Twelve Steps, one of which is accepting that there is a power greater than yourself. Now AA is careful to say that doesn't mean a divinity; but many do look at the power as that.



Actually, one is not required to officially "join" AA. You just go in and blend in and do your thing along with everyone else. It is expected, however, as a matter of course, that you obtain a sponsor to help you along the rough spots.

A Higher Power can mean whatever you want it to mean, according to AA. Personally, I would suggest to an atheist or Agnostic, to consider the subconscious part of the mind as their Higher Power.

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