I am continuously curious about the reasons people stay married. A couple in our church has been married for 60 years, my parents are going on their 55th year. And I can read love between the lines of Frankvan's posts every time he mentions his wife, so mostly I'm poking into his business, but it makes me think 'what keeps people with differing views of God together?'
I'm going to phrase these questions directly to Frank, but everyone feel free to jump in with comments to me. And I don't have to tell Frank "tell me to mind my own business" because I already know he will.
It seems typical that the woman is usually the faithful one, but it can be the other way. Was it that way with you? Was she a churchgoer from the beginning? What was it exactly that made you desperate to marry her? What did her parents think of you? When raising children in her faith, or going to church, or making wills, or any issue came up, how were they resolved? ********************************************************** 02-08-07, 01:40 PM babthrower (Jumping in!) My hubs was raised atheist. But we do have differing views! I'm fascinated by religion because it is such a potent social and political factor. He's just bored by it. If I'm watching a program on the Vision channel and he walks into the room, he'll walk out again and go to the other television set, or go outside and chop wood, or see if there are some dishes waiting to be washed. He has watched a couple of shows on Stonehenge, though. Razz
02-08-07, 03:34 PM dance girl
quote: Originally posted by babthrower: He has watched a couple of shows on Stonehenge, though. Razz
So maybe he's a druid Big Grin
My children have been raised as atheists in a very religious community. With that in mind I have taught them to respect, and be interested in other peoples faiths. They are well informed about christianity as well as other religions. From an early age they were exposed to bible stories, but were taught to understand they were just that..'stories', with perhaps, at the most, some good moral lessons on how to treat (or in some cases, not to treat) others.
As they have grown older, they have begun to select their own reading material, and to examine the arguments for and against the existence of a god(s).
They remain atheists. My 17 year old daughter just finished reading Sam Harris' "Letter to a Christain Nation" and said that she felt it clarified what she had been feeling all along about right-wing christianity.
02-08-07, 03:46 PM juanruiz
quote: 'what keeps people with differing views of God together?'
Perhaps their priority is each other, not theological dogma.
02-08-07, 07:04 PM frankvan Sorry to keep you waiting. Weary old bones, you know. I'll try to curb my long winded nature and simply answer, as best I can, the questions VV asks. First question: What was it made me desperate to marry her? Raging hormones - I was 21, she was just weeks short of her 18th b'day - drop dead gorgeous and the competition was fierce. You had to be there!
Was she a churchgoer from the gitgo?: Ostensibly, but she used church attendance as an excuse to escape her parents and spend an hour or two with me. We also worked together where she was a riveter of airplane wing sections, of which I was the inspector.
What did her parents think of me?: They didn't learn of my existence until we had to get their approval for us to get engaged to marry. They were opposed but only because they had someone else in mind. Something they would have arranged. When they found out I was not a catholic, they insisted that I become one. I didn't care one way or another but after a meeting or two with their parish priest he told her father that he already had enough bad catholics without wanting another. So as long as I agreed that any children resulting from the union would be raised catholic, they relented.
Going to church?: We were married in her church where, because I was not catholic, the ceremony was performed in the sacristy. I think that's no longer the case for non catholic/catholic weddings. She attends regularly, I attend funerals, weddings and exorcisms, if family members are involved.
Making wills - resolving issues?: I don't believe in wills because real life situations are subject to change throughout one's lifetime, and would necessitate constant revision or replacement. So we have drawn up living wills, durable power of attorney for health issues, and a revocable living trust. My wife and I are trustees of everything we own and we have appointed my eldest grand-daughter as successor trustee. In that way, I think we have covered all eventualties. We have prepaid funeral arrangements for ourselves with burial in a Veteran's cemetary together, she from her church and I in a secular military cceremony.
Oh yeah, resolving issues! Generally by fistfights in which winner takes all. I win occasionally. Wink What's your method?
02-08-07, 07:11 PM babthrower Does she know abou Renee Zellweger? Eek
02-08-07, 07:29 PM frankvan
quote: Originally posted by babthrower: Does she know abou Renee Zellweger? Eek
Let thst remain OUR little secret, Babs, darlin'. In memory of Paris. Wink
Frank, that's one of the funniest things I ever read on this site.
02-08-07, 08:10 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by VelvetVoice: It seems typical that the woman is usually the faithful one, but it can be the other way.
Well, in my case, my husband is the believer. He's a Catholic. I don't know what I am. Somewhere between an atheist, an agnostic and a Buddhist.
quote: When raising children in her faith, or going to church, or making wills, or any issue came up, how were they resolved?
We don't have any children yet, but I have pretty much said that he can be in charge of their religious education. I have nothing against religion and think it is good for children to be raised in one, actually. The only thing that I'm not sure of is how an atheist/agnostic/Buddhist mother plays a part in raising a Catholic child, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I've also told my husband that I don't mind if he wants to give me a Catholic burial and what-not if I die first. I don't particularly care how my funeral is as long as it brings comfort to those I love.
Last weekend I tried to convince him to go with me to a Universal Unitarian church. He took one look at the picture from the website and decided it was too weird for his taste. Sigh. He would go to an Episcopalian church if I wanted to (that's the church I was raised in), bt I figure if I'm going to go to a Church that doesn't feed my spiritual development anyway, I might as well go to the Catholic church. Plus, Catholics have mass in Spanish, and I've yet to find an Episcopal church that offers that (Spanish is my husband's first language, and he prefers mass in Spanish if possible). To be perfectly honest, all of our discussion about which Church to attend is kind of moot, since most of the time we wake up on Sunday morning and decide we're feeling too lazy to go to anywhere. Wink
Mostly it works for us because we're both pretty tolerant people, I think. I'm not one of those high-and-mighty non-believers who thinks believers are idiots. I like religion and I think it does more good than harm, and I appreciate the fact that it brings comfort to him. In the same way, he's not one of those high-and-mighty believers who thinks non-believers are going to hell. He fully admits that the Catholic church may not be quite right, but he believes in God and feels that all religions are pointing a way toward Him, so he's going to stick with the one he is most comfortable with. He doesn't think about things like hell and all of that; I think the thought of those things actually scares him a bit. Basically, he prays daily and tries to be a good man, but he doesn't think about religion as often as I do. He doesn't read the Bible or enjoy deep discussions about religion. He would be with Babthrower's husband, walking out when a program about religion comes on the TV. When we do go to mass, I'm the one who listens to the sermon. He doesn't pay much attention, which I always tease him about. He mostly just goes for the ritual and comfort of church, I think. He isn't worried about me at any rate; I think he figures I'm finding my own way.
It's not a big issue in our relationship, really. Sometimes I wish he were a bit more willing to experiment in his religious beliefs, and sometimes I'm sure he wishes I weren't so weird, but we love each other and that's been more than enough so far.
02-09-07, 09:10 AM VelvetVoice Frank: what a romantic story, I enjoyed it thoroughly.
JR: I am not religious by choice, I was called by God, and I believe because it is who I am. It's like being gay (although I hate to use such a comparison), I didn't wake up and say 'today I will believe in God'. Life would be a lot easier if it was a choice.
On the other hand, love IS a choice. My pastor says 'love is not a feeling, it is a choice to set your affections on someone'. In the same way you'd love your children even if they did something bad.
The incidence of divorce is higher among Christians than it is among the general populace, and I guess I want to know why. So, if it is hard to stay married even when you have strong beliefs in common, how do people with different backgrounds resolve things?
I think Frank said once, it is luck of the draw. Is that all there is? All this comes up not only because of Valentine's Day, but the songs I've been listening to, and the threads of Dvd's funeral and the one about xenophobia too.
Ed and I started out Catholic, so it was no problem for us. He was nominal though, and went to church because I went. However, it caused a little family confusion when I converted, the only one who understood was my mother, saying 'you are more intense than most people'. Ed has a strong character to be married to me and not be overwhelmed with my personality.
Oh, and I had to stop beating Ed, he started to scar and age, so I had to leave him alone. He wins all our fights now.
02-09-07, 10:05 AM VelvetVoice I think Sarai has hit upon the very thing that would bother me if I was married to an atheist. I would forever wonder what was holding us together, he thinking that I was foolish for believing a fairy tale, wasting time and money going to church. And on the other hand, a believer would need to give up his or her love for God, opting for earthly fulfillment rather than counting on God for love that transcends time and space.
We are not to be unequally yoked (1 Corinthians 7:39), and bad company corrupts good intentions (1 Corinthians 15:33). It's one thing if you marry before you come to a religious conviction, but its really a choice after conversion. I'd slack off going to worship after a while, I'm sure of it. I'm supposed to win over my spouse without saying anything. All the talking and explanations and intellectuallizing never won anyone.
02-09-07, 10:35 AM juanruiz I knew you'd bring up the yoking business. This, from a guy who eschewed sexual relations and marriage. Why should you make the rules if you don't play the game? Anyway, religions have insinuated themselves into marriage, not to make the marriage stronger (seems the divorce rates bear that out), but to make themselves stronger, hoping subsequent generations are added to the fold.
02-09-07, 10:55 AM newnickname Possibly the assumption that people need to agree on fundamentals in order to sustain a marriage is wrong. People change - even if you are spiritual, emotional and intellectual clones of each other at twenty, why would you be the same at thirty?
Being good at maintaining a relationship is maybe a whole set of skills itself - independent of religious, political or whatever convictions. In fact, certain religious world views, those that seem to be based on the idea that 'I have the truth and it's not open to question', are probably not the best paradigm to bring to a partnership.
Do two people from the same sect and background necessarily agree on spirituality, or even their own church's dogma?
02-09-07, 11:57 AM babthrower When I was a kid the neighbors were politically opposed. He was a Liberal, she a Conservative. So they never voted, since they cancelled each other out. Other than that they got along fine.
I can see an atheist and a religious getting along, as long as they don't try and convert each other. The problems seem to arise when the partners are of different religions.
02-09-07, 12:34 PM frankvan
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: Why should you make the rules if you don't play the game?
Why indeed? Experience alone should alert us to be suspicious of rule-makers of every stripe. What benefit could accrue to the rule-maker to motivate making this or that particular rule ? Should the benefit to the rule-follower be some "prophet's paradise to come" ? Sorry, I'll "take the cash and let the credit go"!
02-09-07, 12:41 PM frankvan
quote: Originally posted by babthrower:
I can see an atheist and a religious getting along, as long as they don't try and convert each other.
Of course! Atheists are notoriously flexible. How else would they ever have become atheists?
02-09-07, 12:48 PM juanruiz I know of no atheists who attempt to proselytize their unbelief. I certainly don't.
02-09-07, 01:05 PM frankvan
quote: Originally posted by VelvetVoice: I think Sarai has hit upon the very thing that would bother me if I was married to an atheist. I would forever wonder what was holding us together, he thinking that I was foolish for believing a fairy tale, wasting time and money going to church. And on the other hand, a believer would need to give up his or her love for God,
Believing someone is foolish or naive doesn't preclude their being loveable for a multitude of redeeming virtues, does it? As to wasting time and money on church, even atheists make some foolish expenditures on hobbies, political activism, etc. Compromise is possible. In my opinion, mutual religious belief is the least likely glue for holding marriages - or anything else - together. Look around at the present ecumenical 'harmony', big success?
02-09-07, 01:39 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by VelvetVoice: I think Sarai has hit upon the very thing that would bother me if I was married to an atheist. I would forever wonder what was holding us together, he thinking that I was foolish for believing a fairy tale, wasting time and money going to church. And on the other hand, a believer would need to give up his or her love for God, opting for earthly fulfillment rather than counting on God for love that transcends time and space.
This is exactly how my husband and I DON'T think. I don't think he's foolish, and he doesn't feel that he has to choose between God and me. I respect religion and religious sentiment. I don't think it's foolish. I approve of giving money to the church; most of it goes toward charitable causes. If nothing else, it supports an organization that brings comfort to people.
He does not believe that loving me means he has turned his back on God. Obviously that isn't true, since my husband still believes in God just as much as he did the day we married, and he still prays on a daily basis. In fact, I suspect that my husband would say that love is something that God always approves of. If there is a God, is there a better way to honor him than to love someone?
quote: We are not to be unequally yoked (1 Corinthians 7:39), and bad company corrupts good intentions (1 Corinthians 15:33).
Jeez. I guess Jesus, surrounded by all of those sinners, was in a fine mess. Anyway, I think my husband would say that I am not bad company. The fact that I don't know what I believe does not make me a bad person. I try to live a moral life. I try to do the right thing. My husband doesn't believe I am a bad person, nor am I a bad influence on him. When it comes to thinking about morality, we generally agree. We both try to be honest and caring. He admires Jesus; I admire Gandhi. The two men have quite a bit in common, so we don't often disagree about how to live life.
quote: I'd slack off going to worship after a while, I'm sure of it. I'm supposed to win over my spouse without saying anything. All the talking and explanations and intellectuallizing never won anyone.
Well, my husband didn't go to church regularly, ever. So I don't think I've held him back; in fact, I think I encourage him to go. I know it comforts him, so I like for him to go. If he doesn't go to church regularly, it isn't because I'm discouraging him. Quite the contrary.
My husband and I love each other, and we see no conflict between love and God.
02-09-07, 01:55 PM juanruiz
quote: if I was married to an atheist. I would forever wonder what was holding us together, he thinking that I was foolish for believing a fairy tale, wasting time and money going to church. And on the other hand, a believer would need to give up his or her love for God,
I think the problem here is the notion that there is some sort of atheist dogma, that being married to an atheist would be like married to a Methodist, or Lutheran, or Catholic. And that you would have to defend your religious beliefs. Atheists don't care. I would say to you "Believe what you wish, contribute what you want. I respect your beliefs and desires." But it seems you want to make marriage theocentric, which is maybe why you have expressed so many times in the past your sentiments about your husband's approach to the subject.
02-09-07, 02:27 PM babthrower
An friend, a very smart woman, was an atheist who married an Anglican and they lived contentedly until his death, in his early fifties. Then she got cancer, and in hospital was visited by some Roman Catholics. They didn't make amy 'moves' on her, just were friendly and helpful, and since she was hospitalized for quite a while, she looked forward to their visits. Then one day, one of them brought up the subject of religion.
"I'm sorry," she told me she said to her, "but I have no sense of god."
"Do you have a sense of love?" the woman asked her.
"Yes, of course."
"Well, that's god."
And my friend is now a fervent Catholic. She said that she feels god's love through the love of other people. For her, all that was needed was to have something 'behind' the word 'god' to give it meaning.
Just goes to show that atheists and theists can connect.
(Doesn't work for me, though, I think love is totally human.)
02-09-07, 02:30 PM juanruiz
quote: "Well, that's god."
Sorry, but pouring through the Bible I have a hard time finding a god of love.
02-09-07, 03:06 PM doñadiana Maybe you just haven't looked in the right places.
DD
02-09-07, 03:07 PM frankvan I think a god of love is far more acceptable than the god of the various scriptures, that's what I find attractive about Buddhism.If I weren't so confirmed an atheist, I might delve into that like Sarai.
But I'm also not so sure that, as Babs says, love is completely Human. I think "Human" is 90% chimpanzee. We tend to flatter ourselves with our "God-like" attributes.
02-09-07, 03:54 PM aminator2002 Flatter ourselves or demean God... one or both, you choose.
02-09-07, 03:55 PM aminator2002
quote: Maybe you just haven't looked in the right places.
That just makes me chuckle. Pick and choose as needed but when put to test the entire document is held up as infallible. It's a strange business.
02-09-07, 03:57 PM babthrower "I think "Human" is 90% chimpanzee. We tend to flatter ourselves with our "God-like" attributes" sez Frank.
I have godlike attributes -- jealous, vengeful, rageaholic, loving to be praised -- even adored! But I have struggled for years to overcome them. Eek
02-09-07, 04:05 PM VelvetVoice
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: I think the problem here is the notion that there is some sort of atheist dogma, that being married to an atheist would be like married to a Methodist, or Lutheran, or Catholic. And that you would have to defend your religious beliefs. Atheists don't care. I would say to you "Believe what you wish, contribute what you want. I respect your beliefs and desires." But it seems you want to make marriage theocentric, which is maybe why you have expressed so many times in the past your sentiments about your husband's approach to the subject.
No, I think that I understand Ed's distance a lot more now, he feels these things but does not express them like I do. I like to put everything on the table all the time, but imagine listening to me when I'm in a mood. I'll confuse the crap out of you. I can see a distinct change in his outlook since his conversion. He has put all his beliefs to the test, and for him not much has changed as far as dogma, he couldn't care less about theology. When it comes to application, he is better than me. He lives his convictions, and I'm not always good at it. I have more weaknesses.
02-09-07, 08:27 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by frankvan: I think a god of love is far more acceptable than the god of the various scriptures, that's what I find attractive about Buddhism.If I weren't so confirmed an atheist, I might delve into that like Sarai.
This is off topic, but Buddhism doesn't worship a God of love, Frank. Buddhists do not have a God. So you can be a Buddhist and an atheist at the same time. Wink
02-10-07, 07:41 AM doñadiana
quote: Originally posted by aminator2002:
quote: Maybe you just haven't looked in the right places.
That just makes me chuckle. Pick and choose as needed but when put to test the entire document is held up as infallible. It's a strange business.
Context is important.
quote: Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments, and He repays those who hate Him to their face, to destroy them. He will not be slack with him who hates Him, He will repay him to his face (Deut. 7:9-10).
Those who can only see an unloving God in the Scriptures, perhaps are identifying themselves with the enemies of God.
DD
02-10-07, 09:54 AM juanruiz
quote: Those who can only see an unloving God in the Scriptures, perhaps are identifying themselves with the enemies of God.
I don't think pointing out instances where the Judeo-Christian god's actions (Noah, Job, etc) clearly demonstrate a lack of love has anything to do with association with the "enemies of God." Anymore than pointing out the lousy playcalling of the Bears in the Super Bowl makes one an enemy of the Bears.
02-10-07, 12:26 PM frankvan
quote: Buddhism doesn't worship a God of love, Frank. Buddhists do not have a God. So you can be a Buddhist and an atheist at the same time.
That's what I meant, Sarai. The non-theistic aspect of Buddhism is what I find appealing. Once a god or gods become an essential part of any religion, s/he has to be described some way. Usually, for obvious reasons, he resembles the individual who worships him/her/us. God seems far too human for my requirements. Roll Eyes
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