I'm an atheist, but I don't particularly want to be. Technically I guess you would say I'm an agnostic, since I think it's possible that there is something more out there. However, I really don't think I'm capable of believing things without having any reason to believe them other than the desire to believe them. I've tried, believe me. I have learned a little about just about every religion I can think of - from Western religions to Eastern religions to New Age ideas. So far, I have felt no epiphany and really can't buy any of it. Sometimes I think I get close, but then just as I think I'm finally on to something, the magic wears off and I just see the atheist truth underneath it all again. I think I'm mildly depressed about it, because I just don't quite know what my life is about exactly, as corny as that sounds. Not dangerously depressed, mind you, just sort of tired. It doesn't help that everything else I want to believe in seems sort of like a sham as well.
Has anyone else gone through this? Atheists, how did you come to accept atheism without feeling sort of hopeless or meaningless?
Believers, did any of you go through this? What finally brought to you to your faith? (And please don't say "Knock and the door shall open," because my knuckles are starting to bleed!)
Thanks. ****************************************************** 02-14-05, 10:25 PM jusork As a non-believer, I don't feel hopeless because I don't see how there's anything to be hopeless about. I'm living, doing what I want to, and so there's simply nothing that I feel like I'm missing from my life.
I'm curious why you aren't finding satisfaction in simply living?
Did you look into Buddhism? What about some kind of philosophical religion like that?
02-15-05, 06:32 AM MommyTimesTwo Sarai
I feel the same way. I thought I had found my path through the Methodist church, but pretty quickly the inconsistencies came up. I thought I had found my path through paganism, specifically Wicca, but that also didn't do it for me.
I've come to realize that I'm meant to know God without the help of others, as in, not through a religion, and that's working much better.
Perhaps your path is the same.
Jusork
Many atheists feel that there is little point to living life or being a good person when in the end you're just going to rot in a grave anyway. That is one source of hopelessness. It is great that you don't feel that way, but it really isn't very respectful to ask someone to justify their feelings like that. Spirituality is very emotional and there's usually no logical justification behind it anyway, even if someone "needed" to justify their feelings in some way by answering "Why aren't you finding satisfaction in simply living?"
If anything, such a question would just about guarantee making the person feel worse, and in my opinion is very insensitive and borderline rude.
02-15-05, 08:16 AM Bibleman You may want to read the publication Is There a Creator Who Cares About You? available from Jehovah's Witnesses.
quote: We are in good company when asking, What caused the universe, our planet, and our life on it? And how does this relate to our finding a satisfying meaning in life? The clear answers in this book can help you add meaning to your life. 192 pages.
02-15-05, 08:36 AM juanruiz
quote: Atheists, how did you come to accept atheism without feeling sort of hopeless or meaningless?
Your question presupposes that some sort of divinity is a necessary part of the equation of life; that just living is itself not wonderful. The many experiences I have had, the joys and sorrows in love, friendship, career, have been enough for me...just living life has been enough for me. I feel I have no void by not having a deity present, a deity which demands being the center of one's life and attention. But I also realize that, in the final analysis, it is up to each individual to decide.
02-15-05, 09:38 AM VelvetVoice There is no magic bullet of faith. Not everyone has that 'conversion' experience either. You can't look for everything to be rosy and all your ills cured by faith, it doesn't work that way.
Everybody goes through that empty feeling, as I am also prone to depression. And the thing about churches is that they are full of people, with all their faults and foibles. That doesn't eliminate your need to associate with people, though.
I have been seeking my own mission in life, and despite all the education, experience and the spirituality, the only thing I have left is what I have inside, and how God speaks to me personally. There never will be scientific evidence to prove the existence of God, but that doesn't shake my belief.
Life is not in the knowing, I think it is in the seeking, the journey. Having God as a companion gives me comfort.
Jesus told a story about a sower in Matthew 13, and then explains its meaning. Go and read it. Also know that sometimes when you earnestly seek God and His Word, evil forces may overcome you and make the despair a lot deeper. Jesus said that his way is not easy to follow and that you can expect this sort of persecution, not necessarily physical, but spiritual and emotional. It is not easy to follow the narrow way.
I also recommend you read all of the Gospels, Matthew is a good one to start with. Come back and ask questions here. Read a chapter or two, and ask God to reveal Himself to you. I hope this helps.
02-15-05, 09:39 AM Sarai Everyone, thanks for your responses.
Jusork - I understand what you're saying. MX2, thanks for your understanding response. Jusork's post wasn't offensive to me, however. I expected at least a couple of responses like that. For some atheists, a post like mine is upsetting precisely because they don't relate to that feeling at all, and because there is a stereotype among believers that atheists all secretly want to be believers. I know that there are many perfectly happy and fulfilled atheists. It just so happens that I am not one of them. There are times when I feel the same way he does - that people should be able to feel fulfilled without spirituality, and that life should be enough. However, as often as I feel that way, I also often feel that I want something more spiritual in my life. Jusork- I have looked quite a bit into Buddhism. If you look far enough back into AP religions posts, you'll see that I went through a phase of really trying to become a Buddhist. I read a lot about it, visited a temple, tried meditation. Unfortunately, no dice so far. It seems to range from being as superstitious as any other religion to being just a pretty version of atheism.
Mx2- thanks for your thoughtful response. I'm curious: what made you decide that there is a god that you could follow without religion? I've tried to take that route, but I can't really see any reason to believe in god, except that I want to.
Juan- I don't know that it is a deity that I need. I don't think I do, particularly. Just some sort of spirituality. Living life for me is usually enough - when things are going well. But when I hit a rough spot, or when I begin to suspect that I'm not good enough or not doing things the way I should, it always brings me to the questions - what is the way I should do things? How do I know I'm not doing more harm then good? And why does it matter? If it doesn't matter, why am I trying so hard? Sometimes I think I can use logic to decide what is moral or correct, but the only logical morality I have ever found in my life is that of Gandhi, and sadly, I just don't have the moral fortitude to follow him.
Mmm... as Mx2 said, it is really hard to explain exactly what it is I feel, but it is something like that. Life is great, but sometimes it seems sort of empty (for me - I'm not implying that it feels that way for all atheists! In fact, that's the point of my post. I want to know if you've ever felt this way, and if so, how do you get past that feeling?).
Bibleman - thanks for the recommendation. It isn't easy for me to get books like that where I live, but I will try to find it next time I'm in the states. Are there any websites that you might recommend in the meantime?
02-15-05, 09:43 AM VelvetVoice Also, you can try reading Ecclesiastes, Solomon wrote it, and the conclusions he comes to are very similar to some of your feelings. He had all riches and wisdom, and spirituality and a special relationship with God and His people. His conclusions? Eat and drink and enjoy the fruits of your labor, for that is your reward in life. Also, fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man's all. For God will bring every work to judgement, including every secret thing, whether good or evil.
02-15-05, 09:45 AM Sarai VV- we posted at the same time. Thanks a lot for your post. You seem to understand where I'm coming from. And I'm sure your right - even believers must go through phases of emptiness. Perhaps that's just part of life.
I have read the gospels more than once. As I get older, I understand them better and differently, so it can't hurt to read them again, and I have no doubt that I will. Howevedr, so far I haven't crossed the line between feeling that the gospels are art to feeling that they are truth.
I've only read Ecclesiastes once, and it was as a teenager, when I was as anti-religion as they come. I will take your advice and read it again now that I'm older and a bit more patient. Smile Thanks.
02-15-05, 09:47 AM juanruiz
quote: I want to know if you've ever felt this way, and if so, how do you get past that feeling?).
Who hasn't? Man, there have been times when my life was a rollercoaster, others when it was a merrygoround. This is the first time I've ever admitted this, but many years ago I was sitting on my bed with literally a gun to my head. Times like that have been balanced out by great happiness. What do I do, just go forward to the next adventure. That's what life is for me, another corner to turn, everyday.
02-15-05, 10:05 AM VelvetVoice Not to be cliche, but I am working my way through The Purpose Driven Life, I'm on Day 24. I haven't been ripping through it because I am trying to absorb and really live the lessons I am learning, but it does help.
Also, let me recommend another book. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones wrote Spiritual Depression. It's a pretty heavy read, and aimed to Christians not able to express their joy, but it may be a useful read for you. It shows that a Christian does not have to look, act or feel depressed. Don't let life rob you of joy, you may find it yet.
02-15-05, 10:16 AM newnickname Confessions of a Philosopher isn't a well-known book. It's Bryan McGee's autobigraphy. In it, he describes a rational search for a higher meaning to life.
One idea from the book has stuck with me - that our senses and our brains evolved on this one planet, and suit conditions here. If there were some higher power, why would we expect to be able to sense or comprehend it? Of course there could be 'something bigger' - but to assume we are capable of recognising it, or that it is interested in making itself known to us, is a leap of faith.
A lot of atheists are drawn to Buddhism, maybe, as the most rational-seeming religion. You're not asked to believe self-contradictory things, nor condemn anyone who doesn't. Buddhism isn't atheist, really, but it does contain this idea that the whatever-it-is that makes up the ultimate reality can't be explained by us; we shouldn't even try. Buddhism has, like all religions, collected a whole lot of mundane traditions, heirarchies and ritual nonsenses which can be off-putting, though.
Evangelists of other religions may start on this tack in attempts to convert - we can't know there isn't a God of some kind. This is fair enough, but then they make the leap to where they know exactly what kind of God there is and how - along with details of the commands he has for our politics, diet, sexual orientation and so on.
I haven't read Bibleman's recommended pamphlet, but have come across snippets of it. Where it loses me, and would lose most atheists I guess, is in its proposal of the "Intelligent Design" schtick - supported by the usual, tiresome, misleading quotes and half-truths.
Is it possible to find a kind of spiritual peace knowing the possibility of 'something bigger', and accepting also that we needn't necessarily be able to connect with it?
02-15-05, 12:49 PM Bibleman
quote: Originally posted by Sarai:
Bibleman - thanks for the recommendation. It isn't easy for me to get books like that where I live, but I will try to find it next time I'm in the states. Are there any websites that you might recommend in the meantime?
I do not know where you are, but Jehovah's Witnesses are are almost everywhere, although in lands where we are outlawed we may not be as visible as in others.
In any case, and in the meantime:
CLICK HERE for a list of addresses to which you can write and possibly obtain the book.
Also, there is quite a bit of information at the Official Website of Jehovah's Witnesses.
One such article of interest you may find there is Why Care About Spiritual Things?
02-15-05, 01:03 PM Sarai Bibleman- thanks for the links. You're right, now that I think of it - I probably could find Jehovah's Witness books here if I look hard enough, since there are JWs around.
I think it is highly unlikely that a form of Christianity is right for me, simply because I was raised Christian and have spent more time thinking about Christianity than any other religion. If Christianity were the right religion for me, I probably would already be a believer. I mean no disrespect toward Christians, Jews or Muslims, but the God of Abraham feels unreal to me intuitively, and Western Religions often violate my sense of logic and at times, of morality. To really believe in a spiritual philosophy or religion, I think it would have to feel true and make logical moral sense to me. At the very least, I would need to experience something, some kind of inner change or outside revelation. Christianity has never done that for me, and I have gone to many different kinds of services and am pretty familiar with the Bible.
To be honest, I've read so much about Christianity that I've sort of decided that I'm barking up the wrong tree with it. If you spend years of research and learning about something and still aren't convinced that it's true, at some point you just have to decide to give up. I'm pretty much at that point with Christianity, although I promise to re-read Ecclesiastes at VV's urging. While I could lose weeks reading a book that might, in the end, mean nothing to me, I know that the Bible, while not necessarily the Truth, is always an enlightening thing to read.
However, I do think it is important to stay open, and I really appreciate your advice. I will check out the websites.
NNN- _Confessions of a Philosopher_ sounds very interesting. I'll put it on my wish list! Smile
quote: Is it possible to find a kind of spiritual peace knowing the possibility of 'something bigger', and accepting also that we needn't necessarily be able to connect with it?
It must be possible to make peace with not knowing. So far, I haven't found it, but a lot of people do. Do you ever feel that you need some guidance in your life, though?
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sarai, 02-15-05 01:37 PM
02-15-05, 02:15 PM Professor There is, of course, no physical evidence for the existence of a deity. Zero. Supernatural belief requires a "leap of faith" that transcends rationality and reality, and this is especially true of religious beliefs.
So, Sarai, life to you seems pointless and devoid of purpose or meaning. Get over it Smile I constantly feel deep existential loneliness, and I know that death is the end of existence, yet I love life and hope to live as long as I can. Family and friends are important to me, too.
Note that atheism does not mean a lack of spirituality or emotion. When I look up at the sky on a starry night, or marvel at the complexity of biochemistry, or witness childbirth, I am deeply moved without resort to supernatural or theistic beliefs. That's how I reconcile my humanity with a naturalistic world view.
And I am (or at least strive to be) a moral person. For me morality is rooted in the recognition that moral behavior makes me feel better and makes the world a better place to live. My moral imperative derives neither from hope for reward (Heaven) nor fear of punishment (Hell) after death. It's strictly a matter of choice, not coercion.
Even though I had a religious upbringing and education, I just never bought into the idea of God, even as a small child. For years I cautiously called myself an agnostic before finally realizing that atheism is not a dirty word.
I take some comfort in knowing that as an atheist, though in a minority, there are many others like me who have carefully thought things out.
Perhaps some day, far in the future, humanity will abandon religion as an irrelevant relic of evolutionary biology. I'm not a big fan of former Minn. governor Jesse Ventura, but when he told Playboy that "organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers," I knew what he meant.
Meanwhile you have to call it as you see it, and get on with your life. As Woody Allen once said, "Not only is there no God, but try finding a plumber on Sunday." Wink Peace.
02-15-05, 02:46 PM frankvan Here's one more atheist who is perfectly contented and enjoying life without any need to search for some defined purpose or divine plan. I don't know where these atheists are that MX2 speaks of who feel there is no point to living life or being a good person since you're just going to end up rotting in the grave, etc. but I certainly am not one of them. I can appreciate that Sarai and perhaps many others who consider themselves atheist can at the same time feel a need to continue the search for some more neatly wrapped package that contains all of the answers. But I can honestly say that if one lives long enough it is perfectly possible to learn to accept the undeniable fact that we can be happy, we can be satisfied with a moral code based on enlightened self-interest and the recognition that each of us is but one individual in a family of billions. I think that belief should be based on evidence alone and tested in every way available at each moment in time, and adjusted according to the latest evidence. At the age of 82 I can guarantee that I expect to continue to enjoy every hour I possibly can, accepting any sad eventuality that comes along as best I can but not borrowing trouble by worrying about things over which I have no control. I have a loving wife for the past 61 years, 2 children, seven grand-children and 2 great-grandchildren. If that isn't reward enough for having lived a fairly inoffensive life, I don't know what is. But I don't expect rewards or punishments from any gods. I think virtue is its own reward and life after death will probably be very much like it was before birth. As Omar Khayam said: --- Ah take the cash and let the credit go, Nor heed the rumble of some distant drum.
02-16-05, 08:38 AM doñadiana NNN:
quote: One idea from the book has stuck with me - that our senses and our brains evolved on this one planet, and suit conditions here. If there were some higher power, why would we expect to be able to sense or comprehend it?
The question makes a very good point and I believe that the answer is to be found in God's Word which we now have in written form called the Bible. God always reveals Himself to mankind. Man doesn't go around hunting for God...at least not the "true God." When man looks for a god, he generally ends up inventing a god that is an image of himself....with all mankind's failings.
Occasionally God reveals Himself in very direct ways but more usually He sends His messengers (preachers, also known as angels) to spread the Good News (gospel). In Christian circles this is known as the Great Commision.
Unfortunately, critics have a tendency to zero in on the defects of the messengers and attribute these defects to God.
It does take a "leap of faith" to get started on a God-centered relationship since we have been brain-washed for many generations to believe that everything has to be proven in a laboratory situation or it just isn't so. However, if you stop to think about it, no one knows from the beginning to the end and our lives are filled with "leaps of faith" until the day we die.
Sarai: I believe that God is in the process of revealing Himself to you and I pray that you don't get side-tracked by vain philosophies that will lead you nowhere.
DD
02-19-05, 05:13 PM tsaeb Sarai: Your first paragraph sounds like a prayer to God. Reread it, trying to focus on Him, instead of being so eager to ask for human input. He will answer either by Himself or through someone else.
"I'm an atheist, but I don't particularly want to be. Technically I guess you would say I'm an agnostic, since I think it's possible that there is something more out there. However, I really don't think I'm capable of believing things without having any reason to believe them other than the desire to believe them. I've tried, believe me. I have learned a little about just about every religion I can think of - from Western religions to Eastern religions to New Age ideas. So far, I have felt no epiphany and really can't buy any of it. Sometimes I think I get close, but then just as I think I'm finally on to something, the magic wears off and I just see the atheist truth underneath it all again. I think I'm mildly depressed about it, because I just don't quite know what my life is about exactly, as corny as that sounds. Not dangerously depressed, mind you, just sort of tired. It doesn't help that everything else I want to believe in seems sort of like a sham as well."
02-19-05, 06:36 PM Sarai Thanks, DD and Tsaeb. Still working on it. Smile
02-21-05, 10:27 AM aminator2002 I see life as a gift. No religion can add to that feeling.
I don't not believe in everything, but I don't see a need to buy into the most improbable things or those things which may have happened but there is no real proof. I find it perfectly fine to just say "There is no way for me to know that"
02-22-05, 04:27 AM Adi I think MommyTimesTwo may have your answer. For some, those that tend to question and have inquisitive minds, it is not so easy to believe. Usually thse people are put off by organised religions because they see the innate weakness of people who corrupt or bend the religion they are supposed to serve and equate this with a failure of that religion and their God. For example: Islamic Mullahs who issue Fatwahs directing followers to kill people, Catholic Priests who abuse children, Protestant priests and TV evangelists who steal church money, etc... I expect you are one of these 'questioning' doubters. IMHO you will not find the solution in any 'established' religion but in a personal frame that you will define. I would advise to look into yourself and not outwards to find your answer. Here you have to find define your own 'rules' about acceptable behaviour,etc. Can you define your own rules by which to measure yourself?
02-22-05, 05:02 PM Sarai Thanks, Aminator and Adi. Smile
...mulling it over...
12-21-06, 05:49 AM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by Sarai: I'm an atheist, but I don't particularly want to be. Technically I guess you would say I'm an agnostic, since I think it's possible that there is something more out there. However, I really don't think I'm capable of believing things without having any reason to believe them other than the desire to believe them. I've tried, believe me. I have learned a little about just about every religion I can think of - from Western religions to Eastern religions to New Age ideas. So far, I have felt no epiphany and really can't buy any of it. Sometimes I think I get close, but then just as I think I'm finally on to something, the magic wears off and I just see the atheist truth underneath it all again. I think I'm mildly depressed about it, because I just don't quite know what my life is about exactly, as corny as that sounds. Not dangerously depressed, mind you, just sort of tired. It doesn't help that everything else I want to believe in seems sort of like a sham as well.
Has anyone else gone through this? Atheists, how did you come to accept atheism without feeling sort of hopeless or meaningless?
Believers, did any of you go through this? What finally brought to you to your faith? (And please don't say "Knock and the door shall open," because my knuckles are starting to bleed!)
Thanks.
Ask yourself the question: What is existence? Not just your existence, but existence itself! Your existence is just one instance, form, or example, of existence, isn't it? But before you can make forms from glass, or iron, or clay, or stone, or ANYTHING you MUST HAVE the substance from which these forms are made FIRST, must you not?
The same thing applies on the cosmic scale: The quintessence of existence existed before ANY forms of existence came into being. It is NOT a specific form of existence! But the existence of forms fashioned from out of it is absolute proof of its existence, isn't it?
12-24-06, 11:23 AM babthrower Good golly, Miss Mollie, you just turn your back for a minute, and this sort of thing happens!
Zik says:
“Ask yourself the question: What is existence? Not just your existence, but existence itself! Your existence is just one instance, form, or example, of existence, isn't it? But before you can make forms from glass, or iron, or clay, or stone, or ANYTHING you MUST HAVE the substance from which these forms are made FIRST, must you not?
The same thing applies on the cosmic scale: The quintessence of existence existed before ANY forms of existence came into being. It is NOT a specific form of existence! But the existence of forms fashioned from out of it is absolute proof of its existence, isn't it?”
Zik, zik, zik. (I’m sounding like my cat, post-hairball! Sorry.)
What you say sounds so quaintly Scholastic.
As the pre-Socratic pagan Parmenides said, sort of:
That which exists, exists. That which does not exist, does not. It can never be that things that are not, are.
So thinking and essence are the same.
Or as SomeMaps said: I think, therefore I exist.
There is no existence apart from my own thought. Or presumably yours, if you exist. So there is no quintessence.
There is no evidence that there is some primal stuff from which all other stuff evolved. Such speculations are beyond physics because they cannot be tested. Theoretical physicists today have come up with some very clever (and mathematically supported) notions – (“Is it strings?”) – but so far can’t prove any of them.
But what does all this have to do with theism or non-theism?
12-24-06, 11:26 AM juanruiz Wow Babs, welcome back!
quote: Originally posted by babthrower: Good golly, Miss Mollie, you just turn your back for a minute, and this sort of thing happens!
Zik says:
“Ask yourself the question: What is existence? Not just your existence, but existence itself! Your existence is just one instance, form, or example, of existence, isn't it? But before you can make forms from glass, or iron, or clay, or stone, or ANYTHING you MUST HAVE the substance from which these forms are made FIRST, must you not?
The same thing applies on the cosmic scale: The quintessence of existence existed before ANY forms of existence came into being. It is NOT a specific form of existence! But the existence of forms fashioned from out of it is absolute proof of its existence, isn't it?”
Zik, zik, zik. (I’m sounding like my cat, post-hairball! Sorry.)
What you say sounds so quaintly Scholastic.
As the pre-Socratic pagan Parmenides said, sort of:
That which exists, exists. That which does not exist, does not. It can never be that things that are not, are.
So thinking and essence are the same.
Or as SomeMaps said: I think, therefore I exist.
There is no existence apart from my own thought. Or presumably yours, if you exist. So there is no quintessence.
There is no evidence that there is some primal stuff from which all other stuff evolved. Such speculations are beyond physics because they cannot be tested. Theoretical physicists today have come up with some very clever (and mathematically supported) notions – (“Is it strings?”) – but so far can’t prove any of them.
But what does all this have to do with theism or non-theism?
How can you think - or indeed do ANYTHING ELSE - unless you exist FIRST?
12-24-06, 07:06 PM babthrower Hi, JR and NNN, and a very merry Solstice to you too! I'm sort of like the ancient Druids, who, it is said, did not quite believe the sun would start to return until they actually measured its rising and setting against something nice and reliable -- like a 12-ton boulder! So I won't really celebrate it until the 25th. But, oh joy, when it returns!
Zik says: How can you think - or indeed do ANYTHING ELSE - unless you exist FIRST?
Since they're equivalent, how can you exist -- or indeed do anything else -- unless you think first?
12-24-06, 07:38 PM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by babthrower: Hi, JR and NNN, and a very merry Solstice to you too! I'm sort of like the ancient Druids, who, it is said, did not quite believe the sun would start to return until they actually measured its rising and setting against something nice and reliable -- like a 12-ton boulder! So I won't really celebrate it until the 25th. But, oh joy, when it returns!
Zik says: How can you think - or indeed do ANYTHING ELSE - unless you exist FIRST?
Since they're equivalent, how can you exist -- or indeed do anything else -- unless you think first?
They're NOT equivalent! Thinking, a species of action, is merely a property of existence. Action is possible only from out of being. It is NOT equivalent to it.
12-25-06, 02:20 AM babthrower See, the thing is, I know thinking exists. That's all I know directly. Everything else is inference.
The old Greeks had a way of getting around the awkwardness of language. They did not require a subject in a sentence. So in Old Greek, "thinking" is a statement. I suppose in English we would say, "One thinks", or some such.
So my primary perception is 'thinking'. From that I conclude 'existence'.
Can I infer that I must have existed before I thought?
Not at all. 'Thinking' and 'existence' are the same thing, and simultaneous. It is forming the inference (a third entity) that takes a little time.
12-25-06, 02:43 AM Professor Hey, Babs -- good to hear from you again!
12-25-06, 10:23 AM babthrower Hi, Perf. Happy Solstice!
Zik, cat got your tongue? Having a problem trying to figure out an answer?
Don't blame yourself. You won't find a connection because there is none.
What you probably will try is the old chestnut, Prime Mover. Sorry. Won't work, except with those who are already theists. Their theism is so ingrained that they don't even know their reasoning is circular.
They are like the old pedant who explained how a sleeping medication works as due to 'its dormative effect'.
12-25-06, 10:41 AM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by babthrower: Hi, Perf. Happy Solstice!
Zik, cat got your tongue? Having a problem trying to figure out an answer?
Don't blame yourself. You won't find a connection because there is none.
What you probably will try is the old chestnut, Prime Mover. Sorry. Won't work, except with those who are already theists. Their theism is so ingrained that they don't even know their reasoning is circular.
They are like the old pedant who explained how a sleeping medication works as due to 'its dormative effect'.
I don't know what you're on about. Thinking is possible only by an ALREADY EXISTING being. It doesn't happen without existence being there FIRST! - NOTHING DOES!
12-25-06, 12:26 PM babthrower Shouting doesn't make it true, Zik.
Consider that 'existence' is the label that thinking applies to itself.
When SomeMaps made the statement "I think, therefore I am," he wasn't really drawing a conclusion. He was just ... thinking about thinking.
If anything exists apart from thinking, it is quite independent of thinking.
Thinking does not create its own contents. It just is. It is one thing. The existence of thinking does not require that anything else preceded it.
12-25-06, 12:39 PM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by babthrower: Shouting doesn't make it true, Zik.
Consider that 'existence' is the label that thinking applies to itself.
When SomeMaps made the statement "I think, therefore I am," he wasn't really drawing a conclusion. He was just ... thinking about thinking.
If anything exists apart from thinking, it is quite independent of thinking.
Thinking does not create its own contents. It just is. It is one thing. The existence of thinking does not require that anything else preceded it.
How do you think BEFORE YOU EVEN EXIST? The idea is utterly absurd!
12-25-06, 01:25 PM babthrower
quote: Originally posted by ZIK: How do you think BEFORE YOU EVEN EXIST? The idea is utterly absurd!
You're shouting again, and no doubt tearing your hair, but thinking is existing. You don't have to worry about 'before'.
Besides, absurd ideas are commonly believed. 12-25-06, 02:11 PM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by babthrower:
quote: Originally posted by ZIK: How do you think BEFORE YOU EVEN EXIST? The idea is utterly absurd!
You're shouting again, and no doubt tearing your hair, but thinking is existing. You don't have to worry about 'before'.
Besides, absurd ideas are commonly believed.
I'm merely highlighting the absurdity in the idea that one can act without existing FIRST! Of-course hordes of the mentally incompetent can always be found to believe ANYTHING! That doesn't make what they believe valid, does it?
12-25-06, 02:20 PM babthrower
quote: That doesn't make what they believe valid, does it?
Why not? Who can say who is mentally incompetent? Those who hold absurd opinions? In that case, the whole human race is mentally incompetent, since we cannot even agree on a decent creation myth.
12-25-06, 02:28 PM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by babthrower:
quote: That doesn't make what they believe valid, does it?
Why not? Who can say who is mentally incompetent? Those who hold absurd opinions? In that case, the whole human race is mentally incompetent, since we cannot even agree on a decent creation myth.
Inability to agree does not mean everyone is wrong. It could just mean atheists are wrong; Especially if they typically think that they can eat Xmas turkey, for instance, without even existing FIRST.
12-25-06, 03:09 PM babthrower Zik opines: "Inability to agree does not mean everyone is wrong. It could just mean atheists are wrong."
So the Hindi view of many, many gods, and the Jewish view of only one god, who prefers Jews to all other people, and both right, because they are not atheists. Congratulations, Zik, you have surpassed even yourself. Cool
Personally I kinda lean to the Greek gods, if I were ever to feel a craving to believe in gods. I'm going to start a new thread now.
12-26-06, 05:31 PM Sarai Atheist seeking theism I just saw this thread. Interestingly, although I started it over a year ago, I still feel pretty much the same way, except that I'm working hard to convince myself of Buddhism. Smile
Whether existence comes from thought or thought comes from existence isn't particularly important to me. I agree that thought is probably a product of existence or at least just one part of existence, and is not existence in itself, but I disagree that there must be a first cause of all of this. It is quite possible that there is an infinite regression backwards of cause and effect.
12-26-06, 05:55 PM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by Sarai: I just saw this thread. Interestingly, although I started it over a year ago, I still feel pretty much the same way, except that I'm working hard to convince myself of Buddhism. Smile
Whether existence comes from thought or thought comes from existence isn't particularly important to me. I agree that thought is probably a product of existence or at least just one part of existence, and is not existence in itself, but I disagree that there must be a first cause of all of this. It is quite possible that there is an infinite regression backwards of cause and effect.
I take it you're talking about cycling? Well, you'll find you still need to exist FIRST before you can do ANYTHING. So there can be a Primal Existence that doesn't need to be produced. In fact, there MUST be one. But NOT a Primal Action that is not preceded by anything. It is preceded by the Primal Existence. Of-course, being formless and featureless, this Primal Existence will appear to weaker minds like nothing - which is really just no-thing. No thing that weaker minds can relate to. For they know only finite forms and cannot conceive infinity.
So when the Buddha spoke of the no-thingness of Nirvana, they think he was talking about the nothingness of non-existence. He was not!
12-27-06, 02:43 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by ZIK: I take it you're talking about cycling? Well, you'll find you still need to exist FIRST before you can do ANYTHING. So there can be a Primal Existence that doesn't need to be produced. In fact, there MUST be one. But NOT a Primal Action that is not preceded by anything. It is preceded by the Primal Existence. Of-course, being formless and featureless, this Primal Existence will appear to weaker minds like nothing - which is really just no-thing. No thing that weaker minds can relate to. For they know only finite forms and cannot conceive infinity.
I think it is possible that you're right, and it is possible that you're wrong. I'm pretty sure that it has nothing to do with how smart a person is or how strong their mind is, however. It is possible also that there is a primal existence and that this thing is not God. A lot of things are possible.
quote: So when the Buddha spoke of the no-thingness of Nirvana, they think he was talking about the nothingness of non-existence. He was not!
I'm not quite sure where you heard that Buddhists believe that the Buddha taught that Nirvana is non-existence. That isn't accurate, to my knowledge. Nirvana is a change of consciousness and a release from the cycle of birth and death. It is not existence but it is not non-existence either. Tibetan Buddhists talk about the mind of pure light. I don't know exactly what enlightenment or the mind of pure light is or how to understand it and I suspect that no other unenlightened person knows either.
12-27-06, 02:54 PM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by Sarai:
quote: Originally posted by ZIK: I take it you're talking about cycling? Well, you'll find you still need to exist FIRST before you can do ANYTHING. So there can be a Primal Existence that doesn't need to be produced. In fact, there MUST be one. But NOT a Primal Action that is not preceded by anything. It is preceded by the Primal Existence. Of-course, being formless and featureless, this Primal Existence will appear to weaker minds like nothing - which is really just no-thing. No thing that weaker minds can relate to. For they know only finite forms and cannot conceive infinity.
I think it is possible that you're right, and possible that you're wrong. I don't know. It is possible also that there is a primal existence and that this thing is not God.
quote: So when the Buddha spoke of the no-thingness of Nirvana, they think he was talking about the nothingness of non-existence. He was not!
I'm not quite sure where you heard that Buddhists believe that Nirvana is non-existence. That isn't accurate, to my knowledge. Nirvana is neither existence nor non-existence. I'm not quite sure what it is and I suspect that no other unenlightened person knows either.
Nirvana is simply existence free of Maya (illusion). In other words, a state of existence free of constraints upon the consciousness.
There is only existence or non-existence. There is NOTHING ELSE!
God, is that Being existing prior to the coming into being of Manifestations. Very simple. These things are always very simple - unless we choose to make them difficult. Difficulty is unnatural. Afterall the universe exists without effort, doesn't it?
12-27-06, 03:03 PM babthrower Zic says "God, is that Being existing prior to the coming into being of Manifestations."
Who percieved him/her/it/them, then, and was later able to report seeing the being? i.e. On what basis of evidence do you claim this being existed before the coming into being of manifestations?
Zic says "the universe exists without effort, doesn't it?
What on earth does that mean? How do you know what 'effort' the universe requires to exist?
Ah, small point, but I'm curious. Why do you capitalize being and manifestations?
12-27-06, 03:10 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by ZIK:
Nirvana is simply existence free of Maya (illusion). In other words, a state of existence free of constraints upon the consciousness.
There is only existence or non-existence. There is NOTHING ELSE!
Maybe. But I don't think nirvana is existence as we know it. I don't presume to know, however.
quote:
God, is that Being existing prior to the coming into being of Manifestations. Very simple. These things are always very simple - unless we choose to make them difficult. Difficulty is unnatural. Afterall the universe exists without effort, doesn't it?
If there is a primordial existence, I'm not sure why that must necessarily be God. It is possible that it is not conscious and that it is purely disorganized matter. It is also possible that it is pure consciousness. Again, I don't know. I'm glad you are so certain, but I am not.
12-27-06, 03:26 PM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by Sarai:
quote: Originally posted by ZIK:
Nirvana is simply existence free of Maya (illusion). In other words, a state of existence free of constraints upon the consciousness.
There is only existence or non-existence. There is NOTHING ELSE!
Maybe. But I don't think nirvana is existence as we know it. I don't presume to know, however.
quote:
God, is that Being existing prior to the coming into being of Manifestations. Very simple. These things are always very simple - unless we choose to make them difficult. Difficulty is unnatural. Afterall the universe exists without effort, doesn't it?
If there is a primordial existence, I'm not sure why that must necessarily be God. It is possible that it is not conscious and that it is purely disorganized matter. It is also possible that it is pure consciousness. Again, I don't know. I'm glad you are so certain, but I am not.
Matter is something that MUST be generated - and maintained. It can NEVER have ANYTHING to do with a primal form of existence!
And what is wrong with calling the Primal Existence "God"?
The Primal Existence possesses within itself EVERYTHING that is to be found EVERYWHERE ELSE in the universe - in their purest ramifications! EVERYTHING ELSE is just some specific expression of its potential. If we as human beings have consciousness, it exists in its purest and strongest form in the Primal Being.
12-27-06, 05:56 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by ZIK:
Matter is something that MUST be generated - and maintained. It can NEVER have ANYTHING to do with a primal form of existence!
How do you know that?
quote: And what is wrong with calling the Primal Existence "God"?
If it is just disorganized matter or something like that, I'm not quite sure that it adds any meaning to life.
12-27-06, 05:58 PM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by Sarai:
quote: Originally posted by ZIK:
Matter is something that MUST be generated - and maintained. It can NEVER have ANYTHING to do with a primal form of existence! [?QUOTE]
How do you know that?
[QUOTE]And what is wrong with calling the Primal Existence "God"?
If it is just disorganized matter, I'm not quite sure that it adds any meaning to life.
It CANNOT possibly be ANY SORT of matter.
12-27-06, 06:03 PM Sarai How do you know that?
12-27-06, 06:06 PM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by Sarai: How do you know that?
Matter is characterised by gravity. Gravity confines - constrains. The Primal State is COMPLETELY unconstrained. There is no bias WHATSOEVER in it.
12-27-06, 06:09 PM newnickname
quote: Matter is characterised by gravity.
Is that in the Newtonian or Einsteinian sense?
12-27-06, 06:10 PM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by newnickname:
quote: Matter is characterised by gravity.
Is that in the Newtonian or Einsteinian sense?
Both.
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