Can someone please help me with this. Why is there a law in the Military that is the 'Don't ask, Don't Tell', law? Is having gay people in the military, serving our country, dying for our freedom, really that bad? When and why did this law come into effect? And how can someone kill someone in their own unit because they are gay???
Oh my gosh, this makes no sence to me at all. They are all doing the same job.
Someone, help me out here. ************************************************************ 12-30-03, 07:22 AM K.K. This law was the first thing that former President Bill Clinton did for America. It was driven by the misconception that our biggest problem was gays being treated unfairly in the military. I have very old relatives who have friends who were gay (back then called queer, again these days called queer), that they are proud to have served with during some of the major war efforts in our country's history.
Like the mass naturalizations before his second term (Before the elections of course) this was just an attempt to 'sew up' a large portion of a particular voting demographic.
It didn't change a thing according to information I have heard from both gay and heterosexual members of the armed forces.
12-30-03, 08:39 AM puppyblues I didn't even know this law exsisted until I was hearing something about it on TV yesterday. There was a man in the military and he was the boyfriend of a man on a reality TV show. He didn't want his face shown because he was an Army Captain. He's served his time in the service now, and has left.
What upset me the most was how much this man was scared and upset to be shown on TV. He had had known people, right there on his base that were gay and got beaten to death...by each other! Not the enemy...no one in Bosnia, but one of their very own.
If it were up to me, I'd make sure my unit had men and women that look out for each other, not kill each other because of their sexual preferences.
This seriously blows my mind. And I still don't really understand the law itself. Does it mean if you are in the military, you can't ask someone if they are gay or you can't tell anyone that you are?
12-30-03, 12:44 PM aminator2002 1.) It is not a law. It is a policy of the military enacted by President Clinton early in his first term in office.
2.) Gays can not serve in the military. They weren't allowed before this policy and they are only allowed after this policy if they do not tell anyone they are gay.
3.) Some gays have historically not been treated well in the military although thousands of men and women who have served this country were closeted gays at the time of their service. There are numerous cases of gays being harrassed, beaten and treated like crap in the military.
The policy was an effort to combat that. It failed.
12-30-03, 02:25 PM puppyblues I see, thanks Ami.
12-30-03, 06:29 PM honilov Under this Clinton's policy, was he telling the fellow-troops not to ask each other, or was he telling their superiors not to ask the troops? I understand 'don't tell'.
12-30-03, 08:38 PM AMoore
quote:Originally posted by honilov: Under this Clinton's policy, was he telling the fellow-troops not to ask each other, or was he telling their superiors not to ask the troops? I understand 'don't tell'.
That's correct. The main problem, from the point of view of the gays was that, on being identified as gay, they would be immediately dismissed from the service rather than being honorably discharged, and therefore denied post-service benefits, such as those provided under the GI bill, retirement benefits, and so forth. Basically, they were treated like criminals, except that usually there was no official punishment such as fines or imprisonment. Often, having been in the service, and not having an honorable discharge to show for it makes finding other employment difficult as well.
Alan Moore
04-03-04, 02:22 PM Sean The only one thing that I dont understand about this is; If Bill Clinton was the Commander in Cheif of all of our armed forces while he was President, then why didnt he use this policy to defend himself when he was asked about Monica Lewinski? All he should have had to do was say,"dont ask" The policy, if I'm not mistaken read about any sexual reference, not just orientation, or preference.
04-03-04, 04:23 PM IndigoFlavours The don't ask don't tell policy was a vast improvement to the prior policy of not allowing gays to serve at all. This way, as long as they just don't tell anybody, they can serve if they want to.
This will also work to my boyfriend's benefit if the draft ever comes back. I'll MAKE him tell them that he's gay Wink Although they didn't ask, he did "tell" so he has to be let go, right? If that doesn't work I'll make him tell them that he is a Quaker. If all else fails, I'll shoot him in the foot.
04-04-04, 05:09 PM AMoore
quote:Originally posted by IndigoFlavours: - snip -
This will also work to my boyfriend's benefit if the draft ever comes back. I'll MAKE him tell them that he's gay Wink Although they didn't ask, he did "tell" so he has to be let go, right? If that doesn't work I'll make him tell them that he is a Quaker. If all else fails, I'll shoot him in the foot.
Don't shoot him in the foot yourself. That would get you in trouble. Have him shoot himself in the foot instead.
Then, having done that, make sure he gets and keeps a letter from his doctor. When I went for a pre-induction physical exam in the late '06s, the "doctor" doing the exams was successful in overlooking the entirely mangled foot of the guy two away from me in line, who'd been expecting his disability to keep him out of the service. My own disability kept me out, but only because I had a letter from a doctor.
Alan Moore
04-11-04, 11:58 PM stampeding turtles Santa Barbara, CA, March 17, 2003 – "The Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military (CSSMM), a think tank at the University of California, Santa Barbara, released a new data analysis following a BBC report that Russia has implemented a ban on gays serving in the armed forces. The data analysis indicates that, with the exception of the U.S., countries that bar acknowledged gays and lesbians from serving in the military are much less democratic than those with non-discrimination policies.
Researchers at CSSMM compiled a list of nations that, like the U.S., do not allow known gay and lesbian citizens to serve in the armed forces. They then assigned each of these countries a number representing its degree of political and economic freedom, or a “democracy indicator.” When compared against the average democracy score for countries with gay bans, the U.S. was found to be nearly three times more democratic than other nations with gay bans. Russia’s score was on the undemocratic side of the indicators scale. The upshot is that, while most countries with relatively high democracy indicators allowed gays to serve in their militaries, the U.S. found itself among the bottom half of otherwise democratic countries which ban gay service."
also: ." Allowing openly gay service members will not hurt unit cohesion or competence. Our closest allies allow openly gay service members, including every member of NATO except Turkey. Research shows none of the countries with openly gay service members have been hurt by their non-discrimination policy. England, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Israel are just some of the 24 nations that allow openly gay members in the military. Even South Africa allows openly gay service members.
Even though many opponents predicted problems in these countries before their bans were lifted, time proved them wrong. Researchers say not a single country with openly gay service members has reported any decrease in morale, recruitment, retention or cohesion. Researcher Aaron Belkin studied this issue for the Liberty Education Forum's recent white paper on the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. He interviewed 100 experts around the globe, many of whom opposed their country's efforts to lift the ban on openly gay military personnel. Not one of the people he interviewed believed that their nation's military performance suffered when the ban was lifted."
It seems that America's policy is very flawed and Un-American in democratic spirit.... more evidence of bullying and cowing to the fear and ignorance about gays. With a little bit of Machoman thrown in for good measu
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