'...By no means do I intend to disparage General Petraeus or his record. In wearing a uniform festooned with medals, ribbons, badges, and tabs, he's the norm among U.S. military commanders. Yet those medals and militaria that our commanders wear are a kind of evidence. Our military, they indicate, is so busy patting itself on the back that its medal-bestowing has come to resemble those Little League tournaments where every kid gets a trophy, win or lose...'Astore on a Military Bemedaled, Bothered, and Beleaguered
Is the US military suffering from 'medal and ribbon inflation'?
I think it might prove embarrassing if, in the course of interviewing these decorated generals, they were asked to describe the meaning of each and every one of the colored ribbons displayed on their chests.
It was once one of my duties to compose the individual citations for officers of the U.S Third Army. On more than one occasion, I purposely used exaggerated, tongue in cheek hyperbole in describing the action, event, and/or circumstance for which the particular medal was to be awarded. No one ever edited or questioned what was so often a case of "you scratch my back - I'll scratch yours" between fellow officers.
Rather curiously, the criteria for getting the Purple Heart do not include any reference to gallantry . The award may be made to anyone serving who suffers an injury caused by the enemy, which injury requires medical attention. How then do you distinguish those who commit acts of extreme bravery in the face of the enemy? If a man hurt by a bit of flying shrapnel is to get the medal then prima facie he ranks, in terms of the medal, with the hero who single-handed and under fire from a nest of machine gunners goes out and rescues his colleagues
Of course the criteria is different for the Congressional Medal of Honor, Silver Star, Bronze Star, etc. But I remember writing up the papers for a Purple Heart awarded to a Warrant Officer, J.G, who was cut by a piece of broken glass, when the area was under artillery fire and a window shattered. You have to realize that these medals are awarded on the recommendation of fellow officers and non-coms. Sometimes it's a case of: "You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours".
So , Frank, one of our great comedians was closer to the truth than we'd suspected . Tony Hancock's persona was of a coward who talked big. In a story in WW2 he was shaving at home when a bomb landed.The bang made him start, causing him to cut himself. He observed huffily to his laughing companions " You may mock but if I'd been an American, I'd have got the Purple Heart for that!"
If a man hurt by a bit of flying shrapnel is to get the medal then prima facie he ranks, in terms of the medal, with the hero who single-handed and under fire from a nest of machine gunners goes out and rescues his colleagues
Unfortunately, the Purple Heart Medal has been cheapened by people that should not have received it, and John Kerry is one of them. The guy who single-handedly goes out under fire and rescues his colleagues will receive a much higher medal, one that has not been cheapened.
Posts: 3165 | Location: From the Mountains to the Sea. | Registered: 06-08-02
That was resolved, Scotty, but not to your satisfaction. Almost every one of the Swiftboaters were found not to have been there, and one who ws there actually got a medal for about the same action. He claimed not to know he did, though. Riiiight.
Try something new, Scotty. Your mud is getting watery.
Posts: 16771 | Location: Lincoln Place, Granite City, IL, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
I wonder if the average general's chestful of awards includes things like the 'Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon'. Wouldn't you be embarrassed to wear something like that? It's kind of like the 'Successfully Swam 25m Breaststroke' patch or 'Stamp Collector' badge a neophyte Cub Scout might be proud of.
"Don't confuse me with the facts. I've got a closed mind." - Earl Landgrebe, Republican Congressman from Indiana and Nixon supporter, when told about incriminating conversations on the Watergate tapes
One of your personal heroes, Scotty?
Posts: 16771 | Location: Lincoln Place, Granite City, IL, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
More lies that you fall for, DG. You will believe anything if it agrees with your way of thinking, won't you? Go ahead and insult me again, that all that you seem to be good at doing. You certainly know very little about the military.As I said above many have cheapened this medal, and I stick by what I said.
Posts: 3165 | Location: From the Mountains to the Sea. | Registered: 06-08-02
Is it possible that all of these fat-assed general officers with the chest full of "fruit salad" earned, through great heroic acts, above and beyond the call of duty, and at great personal risk, every square inch of those decorations??? That's not too hard to believe, is it??
I really tried to avoid posting to this thread for quite a while but the inaccuracies, libel and flat out cowardice displayed have got the better of me.
nnn states:
quote:
I wonder if the average general's chestful of awards includes things like the 'Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon'. Wouldn't you be embarrassed to wear something like that? It's kind of like the 'Successfully Swam 25m Breaststroke' patch or 'Stamp Collector' badge a neophyte Cub Scout might be proud of.
Amazing how little your knowledge of the military actually is. In the Army, officers do not wear marksmanship badges as a general unwritten rule. As Scotty was attempting to explain, there are a number of medals for different things. Your cheapening of any of them by comparing them to a stamp collection I find disgusting at best.
Farnk, I wondered on occasion what you did in the service during the war and now I know. It's apparent that you were a persoonelist or a clerk of some type. Your quote:
quote:
It was once one of my duties to compose the individual citations for officers of the U.S Third Army. On more than one occasion, I purposely used exaggerated, tongue in cheek hyperbole in describing the action, event, and/or circumstance for which the particular medal was to be awarded. No one ever edited or questioned what was so often a case of "you scratch my back - I'll scratch yours" between fellow officers.
indeed reflects honorable service doesnt it? Instead of showing some guts and trying to fix an apparent problem you chose to make mockery of something that should have been honorable.
With less than 1% of the population having ever served it is appalling that some of you have the unmitigated gall to attack something you know so little about. Do some folks get medals they dont desrve? Yes it happens but very infrequently from what I observed in my 25 year hitch. For Frank's next quote:
quote:
Is it possible that all of these fat-assed general officers with the chest full of "fruit salad" earned, through great heroic acts, above and beyond the call of duty, and at great personal risk, every square inch of those decorations??? That's not too hard to believe, is it??
I wonder how many Generals you even know or have met. For one "fat assed" doesn't describe any that I know of currently in service. All still have to pass a physical test every 6 months same as their Soldiers and most lead by example while doing it. As far as their medals, they may get them for serving at higher levels of responsibility, those are for "service" Probably little different than a CEO getting a bonus check but at great personal sacrifice and risk in many cases. Look at the medals for valor, most of those earned come not from taking the lives of others, but from saving the lives of one's comrades. The MOH is certainly one awarded based on that criteria. Guess based on your past behavior it shouldnt surprise me that you hold some enmity for those who actually did something worhthy of their medals huh Frank...or are you just going to say everyone doesnt deserve them?
Edited for content.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Frank, I wondered on occasion what you did in the service during the war and now I know. It's apparent that you were a persoonelist or a clerk of some type.
LOL! I guess, Frank really believes that the pen is mightier than the sword. Sometime I feel like I am shoveling s### against the tide here.
Posts: 3165 | Location: From the Mountains to the Sea. | Registered: 06-08-02
The introduction to the article seems to be concerned with how many medals and ribbons they choose to wear; the (dare I say it) ridiculous and self-congratulatory effect having half one's jacket covered in embroidery:
'Medal and ribbon escalation has been long on the rise in the U.S. military. Here, for instance, was General William Westmoreland, who commanded U.S. forces in Vietnam, sporting his chestful back in that distant era. But the strange thing is: As you continue heading back in time, as, in fact, U.S. generals become more successful, those ribbons and medals shrink -- and not because the men weren't highly decorated either. General Dwight D. Eisenhower, who won World War II in Europe for the Allies seems, in his period of glory, to have chosen to wear between one and three rows. And General George C. Marshall, who oversaw all of World War II, after a distinguished career in the military, can be seen in photos wearing but three rows as well.'
Astore himself seems to be concerned with how easy it has become to earn so many medals and ribbons - that now 'Many medals shout "been there," rather than "done that." - and with how this connects to the obligatory positive take on things that has, for example, 'the surge' (people are killing each other and us in significantly smaller numbers than last year) hailed as a victory.
nnn, thankyou again for demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge on the subject. The reason there are more decorations worn today is that in fact there are more decorations. Many did not exist in the past. For example, one that I have earned and am most proud of is called the Humanitarian Service Medal which I was awarded for relief efforts in the Pacific following a Hurricane. Didnt exist prior to 1977. There are others that didnt exist back in Ike's and Marshall's day either. Army Service Ribbon for example is for completing a basic training. Considering about 60% of the nation in the 18-25 year old age group is even eligible to serve barring drug use, convictions, dui's, high school diplomas and the like and with a 20% plus washout rate (even counting recycles) I would say that is also well earned.
But perhaps I should say you complain too much though I am not surprised, seems you take every opportunity to take pot shots at our troops. As far as medal inflation, I can tell you that the military keeps close track of how many are awarded of each type and category. In fact, Purple Hearts are very explicit in what they are given for and yet I know of a number of Soldiers who should be awarded them by the proper criteria but were not due to judgement of their Commanders. As a commander myself, there have been many times that I have wanted to award my Soldiers something that I felt they had earned but was denied or had the award downgraded to a lesser award due to a quota or a higher level commander having a different interpretation. You may think this is like earning badges in the scouts, but I have to ask, how much hardship have you endured in your life? How many anniversaries, birthdays of your children, holidays and the like have you spent in sub-zero weather or in 125 degree heat? How many times have you thought you may be killed in a training accident or in combat? I can tell you that the vast majority of those who serve get little recognition for having "just done their jobs" and even many others who had earned higher levels of awards. I think a piece of cloth and a small chunk of metal is little to ask for the sacrifices of less than one half of one percent who volunteered to serve our nation. Perhaps you think its too high a price to pay, good luck with that.
You may think this is like earning badges in the scouts...
I did not say that. I did not compare the sacrifice and suffering of the soldier's life to earning badges in the scouts. I was talking there about Bush's wearing of the marksmanship medal. You're misrepresenting me.
And what about Bush's marksmanship medal? You say there's a general unwritten rule that officers don't wear it - presumably that's because it's, in some sense, not felt to be too impressive, or wearing it is seen as unnecessary (maybe it's akin, in a civilian analogy to an award just about anyone can achieve - like a swimming certificate...) And we know the only hardship Bush endured to get this ribbon was a day or two at a range, plinking away at targets.
Is it a good idea for Bush to wear it?
quote:
thankyou again for demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge on the subject.
I don't claim to have any knowledge on the subject. I posted an article which suggested the idea of 'medal inflation', and asked if it were so. All you had to do was point out that 'The reason there are more decorations worn today is that in fact there are more decorations'. OK - gotcha.
(Still, though, doesn't all that ostentatious decoration smack more of "tin-pot dictator with the power to award himself medals" than "battle-scarred warrior"?)
Topic Closed
. Tony Hancock's persona was of a coward who talked big. In a story in WW2 he was shaving at home when a bomb landed.The bang made him start, causing him to cut himself. He observed huffily to his laughing companions " You may mock but if I'd been an American, I'd have got the Purple Heart for that!"
