AN APOLOGY FROM A THREE STAR MARINE CORPS GENERAL.....
This "Letter of Apology" was written by Lieutenant General Chuck Pitman, US
Marine Corps, Retired:
"For good and ill, the Iraqi prisoner abuse mess will remain an issue. On the one hand, right thinking Americans will abhor the stupidity of theactions while on the other hand, political glee will take control and fashion this minor event into some modern day massacre.
I humbly offer my opinion here:
I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims(Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, etc.).
I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.
I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.
I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships.
I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.
I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools, mosques, and government-controlled media.
I am sorry that Yassar Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and high-jacked the Palestinian "cause."
I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.
I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems.
I am sorry that our own left wing, our media, and our own brainwashed masses do not understand any of this (from the misleading vocal elements of our society like radical professors, CNN and the NY TIMES).
I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.
I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death.
I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will receive 72 virgins in "paradise."
I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies, children, the elderly and other noncombatant civilians are legitimate targets.
I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making.
I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group.
I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.
I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah.
I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site."
I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church - one of our Holy Sites.
I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and 175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, the murders and beheadings of Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl, etc....etc!
I am sorry Michael Moore is American; he could feed a medium sized village in Africa.
America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that is what we do.
We hang out our dirty laundry for the entire world to see. We move on.
That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.
Deep down inside, when most Americans saw this reported in the news, we were like - so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners. Sure, it was wrong, sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured we were trying to kill these same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated?
Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujahans.
If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait! You have a better chance of finding those seventy-two virgins.
Chuck Pitman Lieutenant General, USMC (Ret)
********************************************************************* 05-08-06, 06:34 PM DorianGreyed Below from Snopes.com Claim: Retired U.S. Marine Corps General Chuck Pitman wrote a 'letter of apology' in response to the prisoner abuse controversy in Abu Ghraib, Iraq.
Status: False .
Example: [Collected via e-mail, 2005]
Origins: As we've seen over and over, articles circulated via e-mail forwarding often lose their proper context and attribution, and authorship ends up being credited to someone who merely passed the text along and had no hand in actually writing it. This is especially true when the forwarder appears to have some tangible connection to the subject of the article — when, say, a crime warning is passed along by a law enforcement officer, or a piece touching on military affairs passes through the mailbox of a (current or former) member of the armed services.
In this fashion, the name of retired U.S. Marine Corps Lieutenant General Chuck Pitman evidently became attached to the "Letter of Apology" reproduced above sometime in 2005, although he was not its author. As far as we know, the original source was an article entitled "My Apology to the Arab World," penned by Dr. Mike S. Adams, a professor of criminology at the University of North Carolina Wilmington, and published on Townhall.com on 14 June 2004. -------- Nice try, Scotty, but that has been posted either on AP or DP before. It was bogus then, too. Dr. Adams, like you, is one who fails to see that what we did at Abu Ghraib wasn't about the Arabs. It was about us.
05-08-06, 06:50 PM Scotty
quote: Nice try, Scotty, but that has been posted either on AP or DP before. It was bogus then, too.
DG, I am getting a little sick of your insinuations that I am trying to pull something over here. If this is a false letter, it sure made the rounds, and a lot of military sites have been spreading it and talking about it. If he didn't write it, he should have, because he sure has a lot of backing. A lot of military officers would claim it for their own. Big Grin
Just for your info, many military officers feel that this supports their feelings very well.
05-08-06, 08:16 PM newnickname
quote: I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.
That's silly. No one expects murderous extremist fanatics to apologise. There was widespread condemnation of their actions from the Muslim world.
quote: I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.
So what? They were all young, unmarried males, too. Should we be blaming all bachelors, somehow? The implication in this 'apology' is illogical.
quote: I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making.
Rape rooms and the death squads are operating again in Iraq, in the sectarian conflict there. And the invasion of Iraq did not free Arabs of the filling of mass graves. The filling of mass graves had occurred a decade before. 'Shock and awe', which killed tens of thousands, had nothing to do with stopping the filling of mass graves.
quote: I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.
'Return'? It wasn't much of a terrorist state before the invasion. It had no collaborative relationship with al Qaeda, for example. Terrorism in Iraq increased with the invasion.
quote: I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.
quote: I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah.
I guess this sentence was added later by some bonehead who didn't get the rhetorical point of the 'apology'. Anyway, wasn't white phosphorous bad enough?
The e-mail certainly reads like the work of many hands, some not so bright. There are some telling points in there, but much of it makes little sense.
Where's the apology for invading Iraq for no good reason, and - to compound the wrong - allowing things to fall into anarchy afterwards?
05-08-06, 08:27 PM DorianGreyed For the record, it took about 15 seconds to copy "Chuck Pitman" and Google that and "+ Snopes", which showed me that the letter was a fake.
05-08-06, 09:21 PM Scotty
quote: Where's the apology for invading Iraq for no good reason, and - to compound the wrong - allowing things to fall into anarchy afterwards?
Right here.
If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait! . You have a better chance of finding those seventy-two virgins.
05-08-06, 09:35 PM DorianGreyed from Scotty's bogus letter -
"...from the misleading vocal elements... "
Coming in the middle of a fake letter, that line is hilarious.
05-09-06, 12:22 AM newnickname
quote:
We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners. Sure, it was wrong, sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but . Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated?
'Made fun of' and 'humiliated'?
At least 108 people have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, most of them violently, according to government data provided to The Associated Press. Roughly a quarter of those deaths have been investigated as possible abuse by U.S. personnel.'www.cbsnews.com
It's not about the photos at Abu Ghraib we've been allowed to see - it's about real torture; beatings to death and the like.
It's also not true that "until captured we were trying to kill these same prisoners":
'According to the International Red Cross, close to 90% of the people being held are not guilty of the allegations and many were picked-up almost at random by US patrols on sweeps.'en.wikipedia.org
I guess 'we lost hundreds' points to the age of the e-mail.
Pretending that it was signed by a three-star general is probably supposed to give the letter an air of authority. So is the macho bombast about 'If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait!. Yeah, yeah, whatever.
Actually - having made (putting it in terms most charitable to Bush and Co.) the awful mistake of invading Iraq (at the cost of 40,000 innocent lives) to find WMD - the manly, honourable, courageous thing would be to admit the mistake, at the very least.
05-09-06, 08:39 AM methos Humiliated? I liked how "abuse" was put in quotes in the original column.
At least 29 people have died as a result of torture by US forces according to US representatives to the UN. As I've demonstrated repeatedly, at least 1,000 have been released from Abu Ghraib without charge, so the excuse that these are the worst of the worst doesn't stand up (either that or the military is releasing the worst of the worst).
The usual response to this is to point out that the insurgents/terrorists are much worse. Of course they are. They're much, much worse, but of what relevance is that? First, many of these people apparently weren't insurgents (or else the military is releasing insurgents without charge). Second, isn't it the conservatives who generally argue for an absolute morality? How does evil people doing evil make the behavior in question acceptable?
05-09-06, 09:44 AM newnickname Comparing the original and the evolved versions of the letter, it's clear that some genius has added 'Kuwait' after 'Gulf War 1' as if they were different events.
Why would military officers feel that such a lame letter supports their views?
The concept of the letter is flawed from the start. Who is the 'you' being refused an apology? If it's Iraqis, then talk of 9-11 is irrelevant, as Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.
quote: I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships.
I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.
This shows a lack of the understanding that you'd expect a reasonably informed military officer to have, of the history of the region, and of who put those dictators into power and who supported them or abandoned them to the inevitable reaction, who drew the boundaries and set up the countries.
'Driving down the dusty, rubbish strewn streets near the crash site, bricks bounced off the armoured land rover, one of them clipping the rifle sight of the soldier standing up through the hatch on "top cover".
A few yards later, people stopped to wave as the British convoy passed, shouting "Salaam" or peace.
Basra is like that, changing in the blink of an eye from hostility to warmth and back again. It is almost as if the city can't make up its mind whether it wants the British soldiers to stay or not.
The Basra battle group commander, Lieutenant Colonel Johnny Bowren took his men patrolling in soft hats just the day after the helicopter crash and ensuing riots.
It was a deliberate attempt to convey the army's view that the displays of hatred and triumphalism at British casualties on Saturday did not represent the majority of Basra's opinion.'
If you were a professional bravely trying to do your best, having been put into such difficult circumstances, I could see why you might feel no need to apologise for your personal actions.
That's miles away, however, from trying to excuse the whole bloody fiasco with an illogical and error-filled letter amounting to little more than 'Those Arabs had it coming...'.
Why would any professional soldier want to be identified with that letter?
05-09-06, 08:07 PM Scotty
quote: Why would any professional soldier want to be identified with that letter?
LOL. Roll Eyes
05-09-06, 09:41 PM newnickname Why is the question funny, Scotty?
Because of the various flaws outlined above (which you don't seem to have an answer for) the letter is inept, ignorant and confused. Why would a professional want to be identified with it?
05-10-06, 12:09 PM Scotty Military professionals have a sense of humor to go along with the serious job that they face in a time of war. This letter hits on a lot of things that they agree with, as well as being a little comical also.
05-10-06, 06:24 PM newnickname Fair enough. But, if one of the things officers agree with is the idea, for example, that questionable (to say the least) actions in Iraq can be somehow mitigated by referring to 9/11, no wonder US policy there is failing.
quote: America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that is what we do.
We hang out our dirty laundry for the entire world to see. We move on.
This is hardly true, either. 'Those responsible' have not been punished; relatively low-ranking soldiers have been punished, but the responsibility clearly goes higher up the chain of command - as far as Bush and Rumsfeld who authorized 'torture' .
05-10-06, 10:22 PM newnickname
quote: I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems.
Also not true:
'According to an OECD study, US financial aid for the Broader Middle East has been estimated at US$ 2.6 billion out of a grand total of US$ 11 billion (the Americans are contributing less than the Europeans). Of this amount, US$ 919 million has been earmarked for Egypt and US$ 529 million for Israel, two countries to which Washington gives preference.'www.assembly-weu.org
'The Palestinians Authority depends on foreign aid for 60% of its annual budget revenues. Arab donors are the largest contributors of foreign aid to the West Bank and Gaza Strip, followed by the European Union and the United States. The World Bank, individual EU member states, Canada, Switzerland, and Japan also are major contributors of aid.'www.hfienberg.com
Those officers who feel the letter speaks for them are kinda ill-informed, aren't they?
05-10-06, 11:20 PM DorianGreyed Bogus letters like that usually aren't too concerned with the truth; it interferes too much with the point.
(An aside to newnickname - Isn't it amazing how easy it is to check these kind of letters out?)
05-11-06, 12:04 AM newnickname I wonder how Chuck Pitman feels about having his name attached to such a half-assed letter. I haven't found any mention of a response from him.
05-11-06, 12:28 PM Scotty
quote: I wonder how Chuck Pitman feels about having his name attached to such a half-assed letter. I haven't found any mention of a response from him.
That's right! If the truth was known, he probably agrees with most of it. Smile
05-11-06, 12:32 PM Scotty
quote: Bogus letters like that usually aren't too concerned with the truth; it interferes too much with the point.
(An aside to newnickname - Isn't it amazing how easy it is to check these kind of letters out?)
Most Americans are not as suspicious of everything like you seem to be DG. Why bother to check everything out? If it is bogus, you will find out sooner or later.
I really don't feel the need to check out everything that I read from what is supposed to be reliable sources. Big Grin
Check the web out now, and find out how many places still list this as authentic.
I didn't see him deny it anywhere.
05-11-06, 12:33 PM DorianGreyed "If the truth was known, he probably agrees with most of it."
But as has been shown, that letter has little to do with the truth.
05-11-06, 12:40 PM Scotty
quote: But as has been shown, that letter has little to do with the truth
Not so! A lot of what was trying to be explained about the letter is pure bull itself. Try and explain your logic to the military.
05-11-06, 12:41 PM DorianGreyed "I didn't see him deny it anywhere."
And you think that is somehow proof of agreement? That may explain why you seem to post bogus things so often. (No, I am not going back to show all the times you have posted something as if it were a fact when a bit of checking showed it to be untrue.)
"Why bother to check everything out?"
Unlike you, I have great respect for the truth, and hate to see lies pass unchallenged.
05-11-06, 12:44 PM Scotty
quote: quote: I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs. So what? They were all young, unmarried males, too. Should we be blaming all bachelors, somehow? The implication in this 'apology' is illogical.
How ridiculous is this statement? OH ....uh, ok lets blame all bachelors. Roll Eyes Give me a break.
There is much in that letter that smacks on the truth as we all know it. Much to your disappointment, it seems.
05-11-06, 12:48 PM Scotty
quote: Unlike you, I have great respect for the truth, and hate to see lies pass unchallenged.
This is absolute BS, if you find anything bad about the troops or the current administration, that's all you need to get your jollies.
quote: That may explain why you seem to post bogus things so often
Also more of your "horse hockey', something that you are very good at. Give me some examples.
quote: And you think that is somehow proof of agreement?
All I can say it this Roll Eyes
quote: Unlike you, I have great respect for the truth, and hate to see lies pass unchallenged.
You just lied right there, DG. I don't try to pass lies, so that must mean that you are lying.
05-11-06, 01:00 PM Dwight Scotty, you know that I admire and appreciate you for your service to our country as a US Marine. But I want you to know that I disagree with your statement, "I really don't feel the need to check out everything that I read from what is supposed to be reliable sources." Scotty When you post a link to an article or paste in an emailed letter, I believe that you owe your readers a little effort to verify the source of the information. Once you post the information, your own reputation is going to be associated with the material.
Everyone who goes into the Internet will be misled at times by email hoaxes like this one. When the truth is discovered, it is much better, in my opinion, to acknowledge the facts of the matter and be done with it. If an email hoax expresses a viewpoint that you happen to agree with, then say so, in your own words. Don't defend the letter, defend the ideas that you agree with.
I truly believe that the main fuss about all this is your insistence that this is a real letter of apology from Lieutenant General Chuck Pitman, when the overwhelming evidence indicates that he did not write the letter. It is apparent that, at least in my opinion, this letter which you posted is not even the same one written by the actual author, Dr. Mike S. Adams who is a professor of criminology at the University of North Carolina Wilmington.
Dwight
05-11-06, 01:13 PM Scotty I totally agree with what you say Dwight, but a couple of people here try their best to put down everything that I say, and it is only because they do not agree with me politically. Since you are ex military, you can look at this letter and see why most of the people in the military would agree with what is written here.
Some of the letter is a little funny, but most of it hits home to many many people, whether DG likes it or not. I am tired of being put down by these clowns because I am a patriotic American. I feel that I have earned my right to stand up for this great country, something that liberals these days seem to be ashamed of , God help us.
05-11-06, 01:17 PM Scotty
quote: When you post a link to an article or paste in an emailed letter, I believe that you owe your readers a little effort to verify the source of the information. Once you post the information, your own reputation is going to be associated with the material
Dwight, this thing is all over the internet. Go to Google and put in Gen. Chuck Pitman letter of apology, and you will be flooded with sites that contain this info.
05-11-06, 01:26 PM Dwight Yes, I did search Google and yes there are many letters that are similar to the one you posted. But the overwhelming evidence that is not an actual letter written by the General is fact that it is hard to find two that are the same. There has been so many added or deleted sections that it no longer makes any sense.
05-11-06, 01:36 PM Scotty Yes, I agree that the General probably did not write the letter, and I may have been to quick to post it, but there is much in the letter that most of the military agrees with, regardless. There was no reason to try and put me down for posting something that I thought at the time could be true. There are many sites that have the exact same letter that I posted also.
05-11-06, 01:45 PM Dwight
quote: I am tired of being put down by these clowns because I am a patriotic American. I feel that I have earned my right to stand up for this great country, something that liberals these days seem to be ashamed of , God help us. Scotty
I agree totally with this. you have the right to stand up for the United States. So does every citizen, including the "clowns".
quote: An interactive, open and honest debate of the issues within the conservative community will help us all in the fight against those who would sacrifice the individual and freedom for political gain and big government." from: About Townhall
I don't see these *posts as "put downs" of you personally but rather as debates about what the proper course of action for the U.S. should be. You fought for these principles, so I know that you agree with them. Just because a person is a "liberal" doesn't mean that they are not patriotic. They just have different opinions about what the proper course of action should be.
We need to focus on debating ideas, not personality.
Dwight
*And yes there have been some posts that are very close to being personal attacks and I am not defending those.
05-11-06, 01:57 PM aminator2002
quote: I totally agree with what you say Dwight, but a couple of people here try their best to put down everything that I say, and it is only because they do not agree with me politically.
You posted an emotional letter. You got a response. A lot of that letter seethes hate and you are the victim? Give me a break Scotty... can't take all these meanie liberals picking on you?
Try checking where your sources get their information next time... but oh yeah, that doesn't matter because you've adopted what this letter says as your own belief. You are entitled but don't expect others to agree with you.
05-11-06, 05:24 PM Scotty
quote: You posted an emotional letter. You got a response. A lot of that letter seethes hate and you are the victim? Give me a break Scotty... can't take all these meanie liberals picking on you?
Are you serious? The liberals here are what we would call little ******s.Give me a break.
quote: Try checking where your sources get their information next time... but oh yeah, that doesn't matter because you've adopted what this letter says as your own belief. You are entitled but don't expect others to agree with you.
Yeah right! Roll Eyes
05-11-06, 06:26 PM newnickname From about ten posts back...
quote: How ridiculous is this statement? OH ....uh, ok lets blame all bachelors.
Scotty, the statement is supposed to be ridiculous. Implicating Iraqis in 9/11 because the 9/11 terrorists were "Islamic Arabs" is just as ridiculous as blaming all bachelors because the terrorists were young unmarried men.
It's not just that the letter is full of errors of fact, the thinking behind it is utterly illogical.
It seems to run, "OK, so we tortured a few Iraqis, but the Iraqis are arabs, and so were the 9/11 terrorists, and Arafat was corrupt, and Middle Eastern governments are unenlightened, and Michael Moore is very fat..."
That's ridiculous. It's like saying, "OK, so I vandalised your car, but your neighbour is ugly..."
Really, I'd have expected a much higher ability to think logically from military officers, and a greater respect for facts, than would be displayed by support for this dumb letter.
It's no mitigation for the US's use of torture (or invasion of Iraq for no good reason) at all. The insult to the military is in asserting that they would feel that such a stupid letter represents their views. It surely wasn't miltary personnel who thought of pasting the General's name on to the letter as a signature.
05-12-06, 09:47 AM newnickname
quote: We hang out our dirty laundry for the entire world to see. We move on.
That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.
The head of the International Committee of the Red Cross has criticised the US for refusing to let it visit secret detainees held in the "war on terror"... news.bbc.co.uk
The US does 'hide this stuff'.
I started out saying that the letter had some telling points, but the more we look at it, the less sense it seems to make.
What, actually, are the sentiments in the letter that people are supposed to be agreeing with - that smack of the truth and hit home?
There are some true things in there - Middle Eastern governments do give financial aid to the families of suicide bombers, for example.
But how do those true facts connect with the idea that no apology is needed for American actions in Iraq?
Are the tens of thousands of Iraqis killed, and the Iraqis who were tortured, responsible for the wrongs of Middle Eastern governments? Is the thinking that the Middle East was such a mess anyway that some more pointless bloodshed and mayhem wouldn't be such a bad thing?
That's close to the thinking of the 9-11 terrorists themselves. If they had said that their actions were justified because US governments had a history of harmful interference in other countries' affairs, and what were a few thousand deaths, as Americans kill each other in those numbers every year with handguns anyway, the flaw in the logic would have been obvious to all.
I still refuse to believe that an intelligent military officer would accept the letter as representing his or her views. It's just another illogical and error-ridden rant from a right-wing columnist, which has been tampered with and amended haphazardly, making it even sillier.
Of course, maybe I'm missing something. Scotty, Dwight suggested "Don't defend the letter, defend the ideas that you agree with". What are the actual ideas you agree with in that letter?
05-12-06, 11:56 AM Scotty There are ideas in the letter that intelligent military officers fully support.
05-12-06, 12:01 PM newnickname Could you tell us which ones?
05-12-06, 12:07 PM DorianGreyed "Could you tell us which ones?"
I'm sorry, but that's classified information. Disclosing it could damage the war on terrorism.
05-12-06, 12:10 PM Scotty My God Man, if you can actually sit there and tell me that you can't find anything in that letter that military people would not agree with, all I can say about you is that you are living in your own little world. Read the letter again and try and figure it out. Perhaps this is why liberals "just don't have a clue".
05-12-06, 12:32 PM DorianGreyed Scotty, in numerous posts, you have stated or implied that we liberals don't know much about the military. You have, through many of your posts, taken it upon yourself to speak for the military. Now, when faced with the possibility of making specific statements that may very well be refuted with facts (as several statements in that letter have already been refuted with facts), you suddenly don't want to answer. Do you realize what your refusal implies?
05-12-06, 01:09 PM newnickname No, I can't find an idea in that letter that I'd expect a sensible, informed military person to agree with. There are, as I said, some correct facts, but they're embedded in illogical arguments.
You've said several times that military officers find things in the letter that they agree with. You said parts of the letter 'smack of the truth' and 'hit home'.
Surely it's not asking too much that you point out an actual example or two from the letter?
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 3165 | Location: From the Mountains to the Sea. | Registered: 06-08-02
It implies absolutely nothing, nothing at all. If a person is so out of it that they can't understand what is going on, is it my fault? It doesn't matter what is posted here, it will be twisted around to try and fit the liberal agenda. People can get what they want on their own, if they are able to see out of their own box. ****************************************************************** 05-12-06, 01:21 PM DorianGreyed "If a person is so out of it that they can't understand what is going on, is it my fault?"
You asked; I'll answer. In this specific case, yes, it is your fault.
05-12-06, 01:37 PM newnickname Couldn't you just humour us, Scotty? Yes, I'm dumb, out of it, stupid, haven't a clue. I'm a hopeless, cissy liberal. Please tell me what, in that letter, a military officer would agree with (or, as I asked, what ideas you support yourself).
Maybe my problem is that I've caught that sunny Canadian Pollyanna-ism. Possibly, Scotty is hinting that soldiers would agree with the general tone of "Arabs suck and deserve whatever we do to them". That wouldn't say much for the US army, though.
05-12-06, 06:04 PM newnickname On second thought, that can't be it. Here and here we have anecdotes about soldiers trying to understand the complexities of the situation, and to behave accordingly. They escape condemnation as useless liberals, so I doubt Scotty is holding up sweeping anti-arab racism as the model for what military officers think.
Any other ideas?
05-12-06, 07:07 PM Dwight
quote: [Dwight], since you are ex military, you can look at this letter and see why most of the people in the military would agree with what is written here. Scotty
Except for a sense of revenge for the acts of all the terrorist acts on 9/11, no I can't see that most of the people in the military would agree with this.
In a quick and unthinking way, yes I can see where one might find this attractive if there wasn't much thought given to the spirit of the letter, but for a thoughtful military person who is seeking to understand this situation, I don't believe that there would wholesale agreement.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like what happened on 9/11 and I don't like Saddam Hussein. But this letter is full of racist extremism and religious persecution which I believe that the majority of the members of the military oppose.
Dwight
05-12-06, 07:37 PM frankvan An enthusiast who professes to know what most members of the military think should not, in my opinion, hide behind a completely opaque profile. At least not while hoping to influence others' opinions. Cool
05-13-06, 07:27 AM Dwight Frankvan, your post is just to vague for me...I'm not very good at guessing identities. Can you specify which enthusiast you're referring too?
Dwight
05-13-06, 08:29 AM Scotty
quote: An enthusiast who professes to know what most members of the military think should not, in my opinion, hide behind a completely opaque profile. At least not while hoping to influence others' opinions
Frank, personally I don't care what you think, I could care less of your opinion of me, I know who I am and what I have done in my life, and that is all that counts.
If you do not believe what I tell you, life goes on for me regardless. I am not here to impress anyone.
One thing you can take to the bank though, I am all American, and I don't go around running down my country and our troops.
So, if you don't like that, "too damn bad"
I think most of the hate and criticism of our country and troops comes from the hate that most of you feel for our President. You would rather the country fail in its mission, just to make this administration look bad, and thats a sad state of affairs in my opinion.
I must say that this is the first place that I have ever been that people take delight in putting our country and its policies down. Confused
05-13-06, 08:49 AM Scotty
quote: Dwight, I try to avoid ad hominem criticism by not identifying those whose habit of reporting on what other un-named military officers, etc. supposedly believe is all too obvious to most on these boards and to the usual suspect himself. I contend that if one claims credentials that entitle one to speak authoritatively on a topic, a deliberately obscure personal profile suggests possibly exaggerated claims. IMO.
Opinions are like A**holes Frank, everyone has them. Yours are no better than anyone Else's. Big Grin Like I said before, I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else here.
Let me correct one thing here. I speak for myself, and comment on what others have told me personally. How's that?
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Scotty, 05-13-06 09:26 AM
05-13-06, 09:34 AM frankvan "Frank, personally I don't care what you think, I could care less of your opinion of me, I know who I am and what I have done in my life, and that is all that counts."
But apparently you do care what others think of you, That being the case, why don't you tell us something of who you are and what you have done in your life. Many others here do that and earn credibility by doing so.
"If you do not believe what I tell you, life goes on for me regardless. I am not here to impress anyone."
But why are you here, then? It appears that you may be mostly determined to convince the rest of the people here that the president and his administration merits blind, dog-like devotion. That anything less connotes disloyaly to our men in the field. I personally think there is no connection between the two.
"One thing you can take to the bank though, I am all American, and I don't go around running down my country and our troops".
There's a name for that. It's called "jingoism". Oddly enough, I haven't seen anyone else here on these boards running down OUR country either. We do have a few shortcomings, though, and some of us think it is more beneficial to recognize and correct whatever flaws we see than to pretend there are none, or that we are too dull-witted to see any.
"So, if you don't like that, "too damn bad"
"I think most of the hate and criticism of our country and troops comes from the hate that most of you feel for our President. You would rather the country fail in its mission, just to make this administration look bad, and thats a sad state of affairs in my opinion".
Don't you see how you lump things together that are not necessarily related except in your own prejudiced view. "hate and criticism of our country and troops" -- "most of you feel for our president". Not only are these two things not necessarily related, but you also presume to read our minds and feelings. This mission is all too-likely to fail because it was a big mistake from its inception, but we would, most of us, have wished that it could have succeeded as initially promised.
"I must say that this is the first place that I have ever been that people take delight in putting our country and its policies down"
Who are these people? Why can't I see them? Are they all bleeding heart, pinko, bed-wetting liberals like me?? Do you only hang around until you can convert them all to your brand of patriotism cum chauvinism?? .
05-13-06, 09:39 AM Scotty
quote: Who are these people? Why can't I see them?
Those that will not see are just as blind as those that cannot see.
quote: But apparently you do care what others think of you
Why should I worry about what people here think of me? Those that know me personally, know that I am an honorable person. That's all that matters to me. I have told you a little of what I have done in the past, if you accept it fine, if not thats fine too. You cannot take it away from me in real life.
quote: But why are you here,
Just trying to express my opinion, I don't believe in the lies that some liberals are spreading. Are you unable to accept someone going against your beliefs?
quote: There's a name for that. It's called "jingoism".
Why do you find love of country to be extreme? That is strange to me.
quote: Don't you see how you lump things together that are not necessarily related except in your own prejudiced view. "hate and criticism of our country and troops" -- "most of you feel for our president". Not only are these two things not necessarily related
Not necessarily related, but seems to be from what I read.
quote: , That being the case, why don't you tell us something of who you are and what you have done in your
I have lived my life as a law abiding citizen, I have worn the uniform of my country proudly, and served it with honor. I have worked and earned all of the possessions that I own, and feel that I contribute to the good of my country. I do not see why you need to know any more than that. Oh, I was born and raised in this country, just as many generations of my family have been. The society that I belong to, you know the one that you snidely remark about, is an honorable Society that dates back to the 1700's. My father comes from a long line of military officers. Between my wife and I we have been here since the 1600's. I don't like to give out personal information on the web.
quote: But apparently you do care what others think of you
Frank, does it really bother you as to what some people think of you? If you and those that know you, know what kind of a person you are, isn't that what counts? People think all kinds of things, that doesn't make it so.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Scotty, 05-13-06 10:43 AM
05-13-06, 10:59 AM newnickname An actual poll of soldiers' opinions - www.zogby.com.
One of the headlined points is 'Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam’s role in 9/11, most don’t blame Iraqi public for insurgent attacks'.
Well, Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11 - but maybe Scotty is correct in suggesting that most of the military justify questionable US actions in Iraq by referring to the outrages of al Qaeda's fundamentalist terrorism. They're mistaken, but they do it.
On the other hand the poll points to fair-mindedness about Iraqis in general. Most soldiers don't blame the Iraqi public for insurgent attacks - so I doubt they'd agree with the sentiment "I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah", and they probably wouldn't agree with the racist tone of the letter.
Scotty, I think the idea is that love of country becomes 'extreme' when it extends to support for actions by that country's government that are wrong - and the invasion of Iraq to eliminate WMD was a mistake, to say the least. "My tribe, right or wrong" is an extreme kind of viewpoint.
The US is, on the whole, an honourable and admirable society. I'm sure that people criticising the questionable aspects of its foriegn policy are trying to maintain that honour, not run it down.
05-13-06, 11:05 AM Scotty
quote: On the other hand the poll points to fair-mindedness about Iraqis in general. Most soldiers don't blame the Iraqi public for insurgent attacks
I certainly agree with this.
quote: so I doubt they'd agree with the sentiment "I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah",
This I am not so sure about. At one time I think that they would. Eek
05-13-06, 11:54 AM frankvan "I have lived my life as a law abiding citizen, I have worn the uniform of my country proudly, and served it with honor. I have worked and earned all of the possessions that I own, and feel that I contribute to the good of my country. I do not see why you need to know any more than that"
So have I, before you were born, and in a necessary and justified war. But nobody needs to know that UNLESS I try to convince others that I am privvy to some special knowledge or information.
"The society that I belong to, you know the one that you snidely remark about, is an honorable Society that dates back to the 1700's"
I don't know what society I may have made snide remarks about, but that could include almost any, including the American Legion, of which I am a member. .
"Why do you find love of country to be extreme? That is strange to me"
I think that love of country, like love of family, doesn't mean being unable to recognize its imperfections, and believing that in order to correct them one must first of all acknowledge their existence. .
"Frank, does it really bother you as to what some people think of you? If you and those that know you, know what kind of a person you are, isn't that what counts? People think all kinds of things, that doesn't make it so"
Of course I realize that there will always be some people who hate my guts, and if they don't know me, I just shrug it off. But if too many people who are only acquainted with me on AnswerPool disagree with me on almost everything I post, I am obliged to give it serious thought. There are, after all, several very intelligent, educated, and fair-minded people in this forum, including conservatives, republicans and ex-military. Wink
05-13-06, 12:20 PM Scotty
quote: So have I, before you were born, and in a necessary and justified war. But noboby needs to know that UNLESS I try to convince others that I am privvy to some special knowledge or informatiion.
Thank you for your service, Frank. I agree with what you say, and I am not trying to convince anyone that I have any special knowledge or information, only what I am told on a personal basis.
quote: I don't know what society I may have made snide remarks about, but that could include almost any, including the American Legion, of which I am a member
Frank, you just had doubts about the fact that I met with military officers, and others on a weekly basis, but that's OK, I have no problem with that.
quote: I think that love of country, like love of family, doesn't mean being unable to recognize its imperfections, and believing that in order to correct them one must first of all acknowledge their existence
I agree with this also, and I do admit that we have faults. Every country does.
quote: Of course I realize that there will always be some people who hate my guts, and if they don't know me, I just shrug it off
Amen, Frank, that is exactly how I feel.
quote: But if too many people who are only acquainted with me on Answer Pool disagree with me on almost everything I post, I am obliged to give it serious thought. There are, after all, several very intelligent, educated, and fair-minded people in this forum, including conservatives, republicans and ex-military
Frank, it just so happens that the majority of the people that post here are very liberal in their views. I happen to be very conservative in my views, and we don't agree on a lot of issues. I also post on a military board or two, and the views held by some of the folks here would be treated there like mine are here. I am in the majority there.
If you consider me to be less intelligent, less educated, and less fair minded, then that is your opinion, but I can prove otherwise.
Maybe now you will understand a little more about me. I am not here to impress anyone, and I really won't feed you a lot of bull bragging on my accomplishments in life, because I don't think anyone really cares.
05-13-06, 01:49 PM Dwight
quote: Dwight, I try to avoid ad hominem criticism by not identifying those whose habit of reporting on what other un-named military officers, etc. supposedly believe is all too obvious to most on these boards and to the usual suspect himself. I contend that if one claims credentials that entitle one to speak authoritatively on a topic, a deliberately obscure personal profile suggests possibly exaggerated claims. IMO.from a quote in Scotty'searlier post.
Where is this statement quoted from and who wrote it?
Dwight
05-13-06, 06:42 PM frankvan Dwight, I wrote that and after posting it I saw that Scotty had already decided to reveal his identity, so I deleted it and answered his post. I hope and believe that he and I have resolved our dispute - for the time being, at least. Wink Apparently, Scotty had copied my post before I deleted it ? Mystery solved?
05-13-06, 09:03 PM Dwight
quote: Mystery solved?
Yes, thank you.
05-13-06, 09:05 PM Scotty
quote: I hope and believe that he and I have resolved our dispute
I hope so too, Frank.
05-14-06, 05:54 AM Karrow
quote: Originally posted by Scotty:
quote: I hope and believe that he and I have resolved our dispute
I hope so too, Frank.
I'm highlighting this just to say that if two crusty old curmudgeons who have totally opposite beliefs, like Frank and Scotty above, can politely agree to differ, there's hope for everyone. (Well, perhapsd DG is an exception here Roll Eyes)
Well done to two of my favourite "grumpy old men". Big Grin
Sorry for the interruption, but I just had to comment. Now back to the scheduled bickering debate.
05-14-06, 09:41 AM frankvan
Correction: DG is an exception everywhere, and watch who you call "grumpy"! Mad
05-14-06, 10:49 AM Karrow
quote: Originally posted by frankvan: .... and watch who you call "grumpy"! Mad
quote: I'm highlighting this just to say that if two crusty old curmudgeons who have totally opposite beliefs, like Frank and Scotty above, can politely agree to differ, there's hope for everyone. (Well, perhapsd DG is an exception here )
Well done to two of my favourite "grumpy old men".
Sorry for the interruption, but I just had to comment. Now back to the scheduled bickering debate.
Thank you Karrow. Smile
05-14-06, 02:06 PM DorianGreyed My mother always told me that I was an exceptional child. Big Grin
05-14-06, 05:03 PM Karrow
quote: Originally posted by DorianGreyed: My mother always told me that I was an exceptional child. Big Grin
No DG, she said you were 'different'. Roll Eyes
Now stop encouraging me to keep taking this thread off-topic - apologies to the originator, Scotty - or I'll have to ban us all.
05-15-06, 10:21 AM newnickname There must also be a significant number of soldiers opposed to the invasion of Iraq.
For example... "If the men and women of the White House had valued the painful lessons of Vietnam over blind service, we would not be bogged down in another quagmire and we would not be having 300,000 people marching down Broadway led by a growing organization called Iraq Veterans Against the War.
These young men and women also choose to transcend the superficiality of "Thank you for your service." While these veterans honor the courage, and mourn the suffering and loss, of their friends in Iraq, they are acting on what they've learned from their experience, which is that the U.S. occupation is wrong and needs to be ended.
Anyone who feels this is unpatriotic should consider the words of a famous World War II combat bomber pilot: "The highest patriotism is not a blind acceptance of official policy, but a love of one's country deep enough to call her to a higher standard." That bomber pilot was George McGovern.
So next time you consider muttering to a vet, "Thanks for your service," take a moment to consider what that service meant to the people on the wrong end of it and whether it was worth all the pain and misery.
In my case, I'd rather be thanked for my service opposing the invasion and occupation of Iraq. In the winter of 2002, because of what I learned in Vietnam, I joined many others who were aware that the blind runaway train full of frightened and duped Americans racing toward Iraq was headed for disaster. Of course, the train went right over us.
'Brave Tomas Young saw it as his patriotic duty to join the Army three days after 9/11. Tomas, 25, wanted revenge on the terrorists who murdered nearly 2,750 people in the Twin Towers. But on his first mission in Iraq - and before he had fired a single bullet in anger - he was left paralysed from the chest down after being shot in an ambush.
Now his anguish at never being able to walk again has turned to anger that he and thousands of others are being sent to fight an immoral war for George Bush. As America this week mourned its 2000th victim of the war, Tomas said: "I joined the Army to exact some sort of retribution on what happened to us, whether it be going to find Osama bin Laden or to get al-Qaeda. "I joined to get back for what happened. Nothing more, nothing less. But so far there have been 2,000 dead American soldiers and some 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians.
"That's certainly a lot more than we lost on September 11. What has happened in Iraq is wrong." Tomas, now confined to a wheelchair, is bitter that his Government's lies got him to enrol. And he is frustrated Mr Bush will not listen to the American public and withdraw the troops. He said: "From the start I didn't see a connection between Iraq and 9/11, but when Bush first said, 'Weapons of mass destruction', I bought into that a bit.
"However, when that reason became more and more bulls**t I started to fall off the bandwagon. "It became clear they didn't have any strong connection and that's when I started to snap."
THE young Army specialist is contemptuous of his President's attempts to justify the conflict. "Bush kept coming up with reason after reason that was proving to be wrong," Tomas said. "It reminded me of when I was naughty as a kid.
"Mom would find out my first excuse wasn't true, so I'd make up a second and third until I would finally admit what I'd done and take my whupping."'
These guys are at least brave enough to speak for themselves, unlike whoever decided to paste a general's name onto a columnist's rant.
05-29-06, 09:26 AM newnickname 'That the administration and many in Congress have been so cavalier with the truth in no way denigrates the sacrifices made by these men and women (and Iraqi men and women) who have been the victims of this war. In this context it becomes most fitting this Memorial Day to pause—not just for the “traditional” twenty or thirty seconds of silence before the first pitch is thrown or the first hot dog is consumed—to remember, to contemplate, those who have fallen, and to renew our dedication, our conviction, and our commitment to the idea that “War is not the Answer.”' Dan Smith, a retired U.S. Army colonel
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
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