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This is a sort of strange thing to post in the Military section, but I doubted that the religious folks would be able to tell me. I've learned similar things in the few martial arts classes I've taken, but I'm not exactly a black belt, and have always wondered about how realistic such a philosophy is. I thought you all might be able to shed some light on it for me.

This is a reading from the Tao Te Ching, which I've been reading and thinking about a lot lately. He's speaking metaphorically, but I am curious to know whether, in your experience and training in the military, the strategy described in this passage is generally a wise one. I'm most interested in the first and last stanzas which I've marked in bold, since the middle stanzas are a bit irrelevant to my question.

If you could provide specific examples to support your agreement or disagreement with the bold sections of this passage, that would be great.

quote:

The generals have a saying:
"Rather than make the first move
it is better to wait and see.
Rather than advance an inch
it is better to retreat a yard."


This is called
going forward without advancing,
pushing back without using weapons.

There is no greater misfortune
than underestimating your enemy.
Underestimating your enemy
means thinking that he is evil.
Thus you destroy your three treasures [simplicity, patience, compassion]
and become an enemy yourself.

When two great forces oppose each other,
the victory will go
to the one that knows how to yield.

 
Posts: 2241 | Location: In between | Registered: 06-03-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarai:
"Rather than make the first move
it is better to wait and see.
Rather than advance an inch
it is better to retreat a yard."_
....
_When two great forces oppose each other,
the victory will go
to the one that knows how to yield._
[/QUOTE]


I think that the European theatre of WW2 is a prime example of this philosophy. The USA yielded when necessary and attacked when prudent to do so (D-Day was in 1944)
Hitler attacked on two fronts with ferocity and relentless hostilities without yielding. This amounted to a great number of soldiers dying, just to keep up the momentum.
Who won and who lost?

And to see how we screwed up, not learning from this philosophy, one need not look any further back than Vietnam and how WE were unyielding and would up losing too many lives, and the war besides.

I am sure a person more educated in wars than I would be able to cite some fine examples of this philosophy in play. (see how I am yielding?):)

Mr(gone warrin')Sensitive
 
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The Tao Te Ching quotes from a work called "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu (he is the Master referred to). There is much info on this on the web and many versions of his book to buy. wink
 
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Kwll recommended that book to me a while back, and I had every intention of reading it, but I forgot about it entirely. Thanks for reminding me, Chancey- after I finish the Tao Te Ching, _The Art of War_ is next!

Kwll - you provided an excellent link to that book online, which I had bookmarked... but I've sinced switched computers, and no longer have it. If you happen to have saved it, would you pass it on again? Thanks!
 
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Sarai, the web page you are looking for is: http://www.sonshi.com/library.html and contains not only Sun Tzu but the foremost military thinker of modern times Karl von Clausewitz. Basically to answer your question, it goes to the point of what Clausewitz would have phrased “the political ends, through military means” as the purpose of war and neither form of warfare is stronger in every circumstance. By that I mean that the argument comes down to the age old discussion of which form of war is more powerful, the offensive or defensive. Tao Te Ching obviously endorses the defensive method but allows for the classical purpose of the defense, which is to conserve strength or wear the enemy down until you can return to the offense. The defense has advantages as follows:
- defender occupies familiar terrain
- defender ha shorter supply lines
- defender can prepare fortifications
- defender is able to react to the attacker (not always a good thing)

The attacker has one primary advantage that is of the greatest importance, and that is that he has the initiative and can choose the time and place of the battle (see Sun Tzu Ch 6for this).

Tao Te Ching is also subtly referring to two powers that are near equal strength, in this case it would be wise to defend as well. General consensus is that a attacker needs a 3 to one strength advantage for an attack to be successful. This can be over a general front or if one side is weaker, can be in a localized area to gain the strength advantage. The bottom line to all this is that if one is to achieve their political ends using military means, then at some point they must go on the offense. One cannot gain victory by a purely defensive stance.

As far as cases; at the strategic level, Mr Sensitive may be somewhat correct as far as fighting a two front war from the German perspective. But it really doesn’t apply to the Operational level where the Germans clearly rolled over and around the defenses of the Poles and French through the use of maneuver warfare (Blitzkrieg). In fact, if the Germans had attacked sooner (yielded) during Operation Citadel and not allowed the Soviets to build up defenses, then they certainly could have put an end to the threat on the Russian front and turned their attention to the West. To use Tao Te Ching’s statement for this example is too much of an oversimplification.

As far as the Vietnam example, it does not apply. The US never lost a force on force battle during the entire conflict. In fact, the US never really even went on the offensive (invasion of N Vietnam) so perhaps a case could be made to the opposite of yielding and Tao Te Ching is incorrect in this case. The US lost this war on the homefront due to the political unrest of the nation and no clear endstate. We lost due to a lack of national will, simple as that. This applies in many case references to Clausewitz and Sun Tzu on several levels but that is another entirely lengthy discussion.

Bottom line is that it depends on the situation a power finds itself in. Historically you can look at the successful attackers who did not yield such as Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, Rome or those that show the theory to be sound: American Revolution, Korean War.

And yet...Sun Tzu also said that to defeat your enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. This is an act that occurs nearly everyday in many tangible and intangible forms; the media and forces that use the media to their advantage as examples. One of the principles that Ho Chih Minh used to defeat the US was to turn the internal struggles of the US against itself while simply using economy of forces in battle.

[This message was edited by Kwll on 08-19-02 at 04:19 PM.]
 
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In a conflict, I generally prefer to have the offensive position and make the opponent react to MY actions or expend his time, energy and resources trying to guess what I'm up to.

Taking the offensive means that I don't want the status quo. I seek a change. Taking an offensive posture doesn't mean I can't be extremely patient, or even passive, about waiting for the right moment to seize an overtly offensive fighting method.

I liken this to the current situation between the United States and Iraq. There's no doubt a conflict between the two countries, but as Kwll has pointed out, there is more to the conflict than military means. I believe the US is taking an appropriate offensive posture -- so far using one primary tool -- the media.

Lots of bluster on what the US might do in the news, but nobody really KNOWS what the US might do; our allies, our citizens, and least of all Iraq. That's good -- were signalling the desire for change, giving plenty of warning to that effect, but we aren't telegraphing our actions (frankly we probably don't what they may be at this stage).

What the US is doing is making an offensive move, through the media, and watching Iraq's actions. Watching their actions -- does that place us on the offense or the defense? It's blurry. While all of this is going on, General Franks stated today he is drawing up warplans -- contemplating the eventual overtly offensive move.

To me, offense means having more control. I'm satisfied we are in the offense with Iraq right now, even though the military isn't engaged. Some people like the white pieces and some people like the black; but nobody can deny that historically white (the offense in Chess) wins more often.

I would also suggest that our conflict with Al Qaeda prior to 9/11 was defensive. They would take action (offense) and we would react (defense). Until 9/11 who was winning the conflict? Post 9/11, when the US assumed an offensive position, who has the momentum in the conflict?

From a purely offense vs. defense debate, I believe you can either dictate or be dictated to. Kwll is right...to win, you will EVENTUALLY need to take the offense.
 
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Strider, you certainly sound like a guy who would go with an e2-e4 opening. wink
 
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