My brother chose Christianity and I have to say, he shaped up into quite a good fellow and was able to marry and have children and a happy family life whereas it seemed he was headed toward drugs and criminal behavior before. I chose Buddhism and have overcome anorexia through chanting and have healed many other pains from poor choices in the past. I have enjoyed reading about the Agnostics, because this is probably where I would sit had I not been encouraged to try this chanting 19 years ago. What I am convinced of is that life seems better for many people when they learn to have faith in something with positive intentions. Do I need to convince others of this that I feel is true? Not really, unless they seem to be asking me for help or if they seem really unhappy. Then I will share the chanting with them; some love it, some like it, some don't even whisper it once. Luckily, there is room in this world for all of us .

+++++++++++++++++++
10-21-03, 08:45 PM
mattlynda
faith is a good thing.
blind faith where you believe whatever a book/priest tells you is another thing.

as for me, i have faith in myself.

10-21-03, 08:51 PM
jusork
I think living without having a belief to support you is possible for most people. I mean it's just living to live. But I guess there are those who can't separate themselves from needing something to support themselves so they motivate themselves with faith. Personally, I can't understand how someone would need more motivation for living than the motivation of just wanting to live.

And maybe, blind faith is just a different means of having that motivation.

10-21-03, 09:02 PM
Julia0802
Yeah, I could never, ever relate to blind faith. I was such a skeptic. So, when I was encouraged to develop my faith through actual results, that appealed to me. The chanting definitely produces an effect that I don't believe would have otherwise been there. And I don't have to believe there is a Him somewhere out there. It was always hard to understand the gender thing in Christianity. We are all spiritual beings and once out of this body, there is no difference between the sexes in my opinion.

10-22-03, 05:43 AM
shelster
Personally, I have faith, in God. I don't get that faith from listening to a preacher or some man tell me about Him. I get my faith from the Bible, and from prayer and study.

My faith has gotten me through so much. It allows me to see that my problems are so tiny in comparison with the big picture. It has also shown me that good can come out of every situation....if you choose to see it.

It helps me keep my sanity

10-22-03, 10:40 AM
DvdGStwrt
Hey,

First this is the Agnosticism Board, Agnostics tend to hold no belief or non-belief in God/Deity.

Second, I would think that your personal experience would best be placed on the Eastern Religion Board (Which does not have many participants). Your personal Testament would serve to show how Eastern Religions can mold and remake an individual.

Third, With your knowledge of Eastern Religions, I do hope you will apply it to answer those questions that have not been satisfied with knowledgeable answers on the Eastern Religion Boards.

Lastly:

No one has the duty to convince anyone of a 'truth' none of us can be 100% certain that our truth applies to all people.

Even if they are truly miserable in every-way, we should not attempt to convert them, or convince them through our words that they must follow the path we follow.

We can lead by example, it is the way that we live our lives that bears testimony to our Truth. People watch and see and will seek out the truth if they see something they want in your life.

Cheers

David

10-22-03, 10:55 AM
aminator2002
Faith may be the center of some people's lives, but not for Agnostics... I think it is pretty silly to assume that the lack of faith leaves a hole in their lives.

What is good for some is not good for all.

(I am assuming that you placed your question in this section deliberately.)

10-22-03, 04:06 PM
Julia0802
Yes, it was deliberately posted here. Why not get some good dialogue going? Why be afraid to discuss the differences between those with faith and those without (David)? And you will notice that I mentioned not needing to "convert" others, but why not encourage our friends to try something that gives you pleasure; hey, you tell them about your favorite restaraunt, your favorite wine - how dare we convert them from Zinfendel to Chablis? Ha! Let's keep a perspective and realize that we have the right to discuss related issues here. It's not as if I started talking about what size tires my car should have!

Also, to be completely honest (Animator) I am often seeking answers myself to why some of the people I care so much for (the ones without any faith in particular) seem to have less joy in their lives. And I've observed my brother, the Christian improve his life with faith and I feel I have also with Buddhism. My sister, the Agnostic, has a good life, well educated and stable, but NOT much in the way of happiness or joy. So, is there really no truth to my topic of: A life with Faith is better? In MY experience, this is true - but as it has been said, it is not true for everyone. I know that all too well and I must respect the different choices that people make. I have really enjoyed the dialogue with the Agnostics and can really relate to them. On the otherhand, talking with other Buddhists can often be frustrating because there are thousands of types of Buddhism - some teach we must rid ourselves of desires, some teachings say you must become a man in a future lifetime before you can become enlightened (women are excluded) and on and on. I was fortunate to find a teaching for this millennium that makes TOTAL sense - to a skeptic like me!
sorry, this was way too long. Ta ta and thanks.

10-22-03, 05:58 PM
aminator2002
Well... I am officially an Agnostic although I also consider myself to be Christian. (that should bug some folks Big Grin ) I grew up with faith to a certain extent and I don't think it brought me any particular joy per se... maybe comfort. The reason why I no longer consider myself a true Christian is because the idea of faith makes me uncomfortable these days. I am a pretty happy person and it isn't that I don't have a joy of life or see the beauty of the world... I do, but I can't "believe" in some prescribed religious nonsense just to feel good. I believe living a good life and being kind to people is what matters... if there is an afterlife I honestly don't think there is a hell.

I respect Christianity, Buddhism and all the rest, but my respect stops when someone wants to convert me. I know enough about who I am and what I believe (or not) to very nonchalantly give a "no thanks, don't need any of that"... It doesn't make me angry because I know that most people try to spread their faith with good intentions. I'll even go to church and enjoy it now and again.

But... I think counter to what you may think, it brings me a great feeling of freedom to not have any particular religious affliation. Plus, I am 10% richer for not having to contribute to the church coffers Wink

I can't quote it exactly but Ghandi said something like "I am a Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Sihk." I think what he meant was that rather than hold his religion (hindu) as the "only true faith", he saw the beauty and some "truths" in all religions. I see the same, but choose to not actively have "faith" in any of them.

So anyway, I don't think I would be more happy with "Faith"... been there, done that. Smile

10-22-03, 09:19 PM
Julia0802
I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. The only thing is that unless we have studied all religions, we really don't know if there is one that fits right in with where we are at spiritually and philosophically. Of course that is totally unrealistic; who has the time or desire to seek that out, really. By the way, what do you think of the (Nichiren) Buddhist view of hell? It is a potential condition of our lives that we experience while we are alive! When in hell, we don't care about ourselves or others and feel trapped and very destructive. It is the lowest condition that exists and there are 9 other basic conditions that humans experience. Skipping a few and going upward there is another condition called hunger, where we are ruled by greed or always feeling like we need more of something to be happy, etc. etc. These are some of the "make sense" aspects of my faith that make it so useful to me. Of course this is only the tip, but just an example to show that the traditional view of hell (which is a place you go after you die when you've been generally bad)is not the only view - just what we've been led to believe in the west. Anyway, thanks so much for listening and dialoguing!!! Cool

10-23-03, 09:36 AM
aminator2002
I find Buddhism fascinating and think that philosophically it has much to offer. My practice of yoga has brought me closer to understanding it. The thing for me is that just like with Christianity, I don't feel that there aren't good things within all religions, but I don't feel that I need to accept all the malarchy to be enriched by the religion. Therefore, I guess it is faith in itself that I reject because to me it implies believing in something against logic. I am primarily a logical person so I can't be happy saying "oh yes, and then Adam gave his rib to create Eve..." I can however appreciate it as a story of life.

Everything I read about Buddhism is also very interesting but I take it all in and see some of it as nice stories and other parts as good advice for living a better life. I would agree that people more likely make their lives hell with all their desires.

I look at Buddhism more as good life enriching information more than as a religion. But then, I have a great deal to learn. Smile

10-23-03, 10:14 AM
Julia0802
I like your way of thinking! Prior to trying the Buddhist chanting, I had a pretty anti-religion attitude and it was very negative. But, because Buddhism IS in fact a religion but when compared to others is more like a self-improvement philosophy and practice, I was able to ease up on my negative attitude and eventually see that even the most dogmatic religions seems to serve as some real "glue" for some people and that is okay. I cannot tolerate the fanatics or the one's that get lost inside of it and lose all sense of reality. That's the scary part about religion.
In the end, we all believe in something, whether it is our self or a religion or the television!
Have a great day!

10-24-03, 05:14 AM
tsaeb

quote:Originally posted by mattlynda:
as for me, i have faith in myself.



It is written that ". . . God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." So what you wrote is true. Anyone having any difficulty with this idea has just not tapped this faith.

10-24-03, 11:07 AM
Julia0802
yes, and ya know, I didn't even need a quote from the Bible to tell me this as I have been fortunate to discover for myself (and I'm a woman even Smile ). However, those that have not tapped any faith, whether it's their conscious choice or whether they are just not opening up that aspect of their life - for whatever reason, it must be the right thing for them at this time! Like I said, if they ask me, or seem to be open, I may suggest trying the chanting that I enjoy so much. But I've learned to get rid of thoughts such as "they need to do this", or "I must convert them". Of course I care about them and that is why I don't remain completely silent; I will offer them a taste of the Chablis, even though they may swear they only love Zinfendel!

10-27-03, 11:40 AM
MommyTimesTwo
As someone who is Agnostic, I have to say I'm pretty...well, put off by the self-righteous "agnostics are..." stuff above. Not all Agnostics lack beleif in God. That would be Atheism. Agnostics neither believe nor disbeleive--we just don't know, and thus can't say.

Also, I was a little offended at the assumption that Agnostics have no faith in anything other than living for living, as it was said. The term Agnosticism relates solely to beleif in GOD, not in anything else, so to assume that a lack of knowledge of the state of God translates into a total lack of faith in anything is the fallacy of composition.

I believe in an afterlife, I believe in reincarnation--of these I have proof. God? I'm not sure yet. That makes me Agnostic.

If one would want to "bring faith to the faithless" they should try the Atheist board. Roll Eyes

10-27-03, 05:11 PM
jusork
Times2, I think your second paragraph is refering to what I said. I was talking more about those who live without having a belief to support them. They can be any non-believer. I wasn't talking about agnosticism anywhere in there because Julia seemed to be talking more about faith, not God.

And if your first paragraph is refering to David's first sentance, then I must point out that he did say 'tend'. What he was trying to say was that for a good deal of agnostics, they highly doubt just as much as atheists but are just keeping it open because they can't know.

10-27-03, 11:57 PM
MommyTimesTwo
I apologize for my tone, Jsork. I'm sorry if I was offensive. I had just finished reading an offensive msg about people who aren't Christian and I guess I carried that over to here.

Again, I'm sorry @->-

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