It's said, the difference between a cult and a religion is just a matter of time. If a cult draws enough followers, and survives for at least a generation, it becomes a religion.

After watching the different sects of Western Religions duke it out, one thing has become clear to me:

it doesn't matter what the testaments actually say. Members of the sects will interpret them the way their leaders tell them to. The leaders interpret them however they wish.

The evidence for this is in the debates themselves which we have seen on these threads. e.g."The Jesus Cult"

The process by which the proponents try to make their points is, basically, text-hurling. Each finds a text which appears to irrefutably support his position.

Typically the other 'side' will question the definition of the key words, especially in its various translations, and try to show that the text in fact refutes the first guy's position.

You gotta wonder:

does membership have nothing to do with the creed itself, the belief?

Is the attraction of cults and religions that they define us versus the 'other' - the outsider, the enemy who would have us turn traitor?

Is religious identity really tribalism?

It seems all it takes to start a new cult is a charismatic leader. The underpinning, the dogma, is incidental. And lack of leadership in an established cult enables a new leader to emerge, who draws away some of the adherents.

If so, for those of us who belong to no cult, the advantage is that we’re not enslaved.

Is the disadvantage that we’re always suspect?

***

For a list of the distinguishing traits of cults:
KLIK and thanks, Elexina.
******************************************************
05-04-06, 12:05 PM
Professor
"The delusions of one person is insanity, delusions by a few a cult, and by many a religion."
-- from Skeptic's Dictionary.

05-04-06, 03:08 PM
jusork
It depends on what it is that makes people believe. What is it that makes people believe in a religion? It seems to me that it's all based on feeling. Do I feel like the God in the Bible is real, or must be real? If so, that's what I'd believe, I guess.

So I would say the information of the creed plays a part, although it may not be the thing that influences one to believe in that belief.
Same for cults.

Most of the points used in the analysis from Elexina's link apply to any religion, the only difference being that the cult descriptions use negative implications or language. What's the difference between unquestioning commitment and deep faith? Does this analysis require one have to assume that religions are true and so one can call it true faith instead of unquestioning commitment? Since I hope the difference between cult and religion doesn't involve a good or bad distinction, why are those points used to describe a cult?

05-04-06, 03:53 PM
tsaeb
babthrower: I find in your presentation of this thread that you are once again in fine form. However, I notice that you snuck this thread under "Agnosticism" as though you were threading lightly with the religionists on board. Anyway, whether I read correctly or incorrectly some degree of carefulness on your part, if I am correct, then this carefulness on your part strengthens my main contribution to this discussion. Stated briefly, I think that the answers to why people become entwined in cults or in cults become religions or in religions, which seem to observers to do those so involved more harm than good, can best be determined by examining not cultists and/or religionists alone but the broader population, whose individuals can get themselves involved in just about any fad, some of which are detrimental to them, seemingly without their using reason. For example, without rational first-person experience, many, nevertheless, believe in such occurrences as alien abductions and ghost sitings. In short, if we can come to any conclusion as to why people are so vulnerable, absent rational first-person experience, to believe otherwise even ridiculous and outrageous claims, then we have learned the answers to your questions.

I am pessimistic in the determination of why false beliefs are so frequently held, because one man's garbage (false beliefs) is another man's treasure (false beliefs). Like you, I arrive at this conclusion with rational first-person experience. So I guess that we have to find a way to teach as many as will listen that there is value in empirical exercises. While I can supply such empirical exercises, let me know when you determine how to wake up those who prefer intellectual/spiritual blindness. So far all that I have read offered on this board is that I have to get myself a gimmick. This may or may not work, but it does seem to be counterintuitive to try to free those from their foibles by feeding their foibles. Should I revel as a tribal leader? Perhaps I can rant against what turns off a particular constituency. Indeed, I do attract a fair number of disillusioned but yet inquisitive agnostics, tired of tettering on the brink and eager for new direction. Again, the reason why we cannot get answers to your questions has to do with our inability to free fools from their foibles, and, no doubt, at times we are each a fool with a foible.

05-04-06, 04:40 PM
babthrower
Tsaeb says

quote:
I find in your presentation of this thread that you are once again in fine form.

Thanks, batkatcha.

quote:
I notice that you snuck this thread under "Agnosticism" as though you were threading lightly with the religionists on board.


Treading lightly wouldn't be typical of me. I posted it here because I thought it would be of more interest to people who are unalighned. Same reason I posted my "What the bleep" question in this site. Aligned people would tend to say, "Well, duh! The others are all cults, we're the true religion, it's as simple as that."

quote:
... I think that the answers to why people become entwined in cults or in cults become religions or in religions, which seem to observers to do those so involved more harm than good, can best be determined by examining not cultists and/or religionists alone but the broader population, whose individuals can get themselves involved in just about any fad, some of which are detrimental to them, seemingly without their using reason.


Interesting idea.

quote:
...if we can come to any conclusion as to why people are so vulnerable, absent rational first-person experience, to believe otherwise even ridiculous and outrageous claims, then we have learned the answers to your questions.


You mean supply a wholesome substitute? Like whole wheat bread to people addicted to Twinkies?

quote:
I am pessimistic in the determination of why false beliefs are so frequently held, because one man's garbage (false beliefs) is another man's treasure (false beliefs).


(Sigh!) I agree.

quote:
While I can supply such empirical exercises, let me know when you determine how to wake up those who prefer intellectual/spiritual blindness.


Don't hold your breath. It'll be like waiting for the Second Coming.

quote:
So far all that I have read offered on this board is that I have to get myself a gimmick. This may or may not work, but it does seem to be counterintuitive to try to free those from their foibles by feeding their foibles. ... Should I revel as a tribal leader?


Aimee Semple McPherson comes to mind.

quote:
... at times we are each a fool with a foible.


Too true. Roll Eyes'

05-04-06, 04:48 PM
babthrower
Jusork says:

quote:
Most of the points used in the analysis from Elexina's link apply to any religion ... What's the difference between unquestioning commitment and deep faith? Does this analysis require one have to assume that religions are true and so one can call it true faith instead of unquestioning commitment?


I think that is the underlying assumption. The word 'cult' is pejorative, the word 'religion' is respectable. It's like the difference in the sex act, whether performed by a married couple or a sex-trade worker and his/her client. The act may be the same, but the perception is vastly different.

quote:
Since I hope the difference between cult and religion doesn't involve a good or bad distinction ...


Well, I think it does.

05-04-06, 10:10 PM
jusork
Ah ok, so it's only a perceptive difference. A cult is a belief percieved in a negative way and a religion a belief percieved in a positive way? So a belief that Christians call a cult could be considered a religion by its followers, right?

05-04-06, 10:41 PM
honilov
I think cults and religions have little or nothing in common. A cult teaches hate and selfishness whereas religion teaches love and righteousness (at least the religion that I'm familiar with does).

Bab, you said that it doesn't matter what the testaments actually say because members of the sects will interpret them the way their leaders tell them to, but that's not always true, because I've disagreed several times with the teachings of my pastor. We both meant well but seen things different.

05-05-06, 02:59 AM
babthrower

quote:
Originally posted by honilov:
Bab, you said that it doesn't matter what the testaments actually say because members of the sects will interpret them the way their leaders tell them to, but that's not always true, because I've disagreed several times with the teachings of my pastor. We both meant well but seen things different.

Good for you! As long as you think for yourself, you're cult-proof!

I guess the acid test would be if some authority figure in your church asked you to do something you thought immoral, and when you protested, would put a lot of pressure and guilt on you, and threaten you with expulsion from the church plus hellfire.

Can't think of an example. Oh maybe your friend had an affair with a married man and was excommunicated, and you were seeing her and helping her out. And the minister told you you must ostracize her, quoting something from Psalms. And you said you might be able to reach her conscience and that she could be brought back. But he ordered you to cut her off.

It is at this time that you would have to confront your fear of his authority and his threats of hellfire.

Sounds like you're up for it!

05-05-06, 12:26 PM
jusork

quote:
Originally posted by honilov:
I think cults and religions have little or nothing in common. A cult teaches hate and selfishness whereas religion teaches love and righteousness (at least the religion that I'm familiar with does).



Are there actually any belief systems that are based on teaching hate?

05-05-06, 12:50 PM
babthrower
Well, Jews might say that 2,000 years of being persecuted because they were blamed for causing Jesus' death would qualify. The death toll makes Auschwicz look like a picnic.

Also religion is marshalled into the service of political leaders all the time.

And the atrocities in the Balkans after the U.S.S.R. broke up were a combination of nationalism and religion.

05-05-06, 12:59 PM
juanruiz

quote:
Also religion is marshalled into the service of political leaders all the time.



History has shown that when government and religion are inextricably linked, society suffers. When emperor and pope stand together and recognize each others' sovereignty. When dictator accuses people of religious crimes and proposes their extermination. A wonderful strategy, the search for political power through the exploitation of your constituents' hate.

05-05-06, 02:24 PM
jusork

quote:
Originally posted by babthrower:
Well, Jews might say that 2,000 years of being persecuted because they were blamed for causing Jesus' death would qualify. The death toll makes Auschwicz look like a picnic.

Also religion is marshalled into the service of political leaders all the time.

And the atrocities in the Balkans after the U.S.S.R. broke up were a combination of nationalism and religion.



That stuff isn't officially taught as part of the belief system though.

05-05-06, 03:08 PM
frankvan

quote:
Originally posted by jusork:

quote:
Originally posted by honilov:
I think cults and religions have little or nothing in common. A cult teaches hate and selfishness whereas religion teaches love and righteousness (at least the religion that I'm familiar with does).



Are there actually any belief systems that are based on teaching hate?


Does this fit the bill?

".....a surge in homophobic killings by state security services and religious militias following an anti-gay and anti-lesbian fatwa issued by Iraq's most prominent Shia leader, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani."

"Another fatwa from the late and much revered Ayatollah Abul Qassim Khoei allows followers to kill gays "with a sword, or burn him alive, or tie his hands and feet and hurl him down from a high place".

Sounds like there's a little hatred there. IMHO.

05-05-06, 03:46 PM
babthrower

quote:
Originally posted by jusork:
That stuff isn't officially taught as part of the belief system though.


Ummm, not any more in Europe or North America. But as a kid I was taught it in catechism class. Since then, due to ecumenism and popular opinion, the pope has apologized. Doesn't do the dead much good though.

Apologists say it was never the official teaching of Christianity, and those who taught it were wrong. Nice coverup. Also by the way the inquisition never happened. It was just some renegade kings running amok.

Yeah right.

Notice that wherever one religion dominates, the poor are very poor indeed, and the rich very rich. Collusion or coincidence?

That's why I said, "Members of the sects will interpret them (sacred books) the way their leaders tell them to. The leaders interpret them however they wish." The pope institutionalized this policy when they declared themselves infallible in matters of faith.

05-05-06, 07:25 PM
frankvan
Tom Wolfe said: "A cult is a religion with no political power". Wink

05-05-06, 08:57 PM
jusork
I suppose that does work, Frank. Where some kind of hate becomes embedded in the belief system as acceptable. Homosexuality and tolerance of other religions aren't very clear in the Bible and I assume in the Koran, as well. So it's really in the troublesome interpretation that it comes from.

But does the Bible actually instruct intolerance of other religions?

05-06-06, 11:20 AM
frankvan

quote:
But does the Bible actually instruct intolerance of other religions?



The bible doesn't actually do much actual instructing, That's part of the problem. It is full of cryptic and archaic expressions and ambiguity, subject to almost any interpretation. If a large enough population in certain parts of the country believe that it sanctions discrimination against the black minority, for instance, the vote can be denied them with impunity. The 'true believers' elect the 'law enforcers'. Isn't the result the same? As I see it, what we do not need is any rule book that can be accepted by some as authored by the Almighty!

05-06-06, 02:10 PM
jusork
Yeah, I suppose it's about the same. I doubt that was what Honi was thinking of when she said cult though. It seems a lot of people don't distinguish cult and religion like Babs described.

05-06-06, 02:49 PM
tsaeb

quote:
Originally posted by babthrower:
Tsaeb says
...if we can come to any conclusion as to why people are so vulnerable, absent rational first-person experience, to believe otherwise even ridiculous and outrageous claims, then we have learned the answers to your questions.

quote:
You mean supply a wholesome substitute? Like whole wheat bread to people addicted to Twinkies?



How should I know? I eat some whole wheat bread, more raisin bread, and . . . Devil Dogs.

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