Assuming that there is no God (for sake of argument) and assuming that everything in the Bible is untrue (with no judgement as to why it is written), what is your opinion on the point or function of religion, namely the Judeo-Christian religions?

Is it control of the masses, as some would suggest? A function of man's need to explain a chaotic world? An elaborate practical joke by space aliens? What do you think?

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06-20-04, 09:08 AM
jusork
Well I think it'd different for different people. Some people say it puts meaning in their lives (which I don't understand at all). Some religions also provides a good way to create good guidelines and morals that would otherwise not be followed. I think it depends how you look at it as to whether it's a control. I think people would have to be a lot more strict if it was that much of a controlling thing. I think for most people, it's just a reason, a substance to fill life with. Although it could very well be that practical joke. Even then, it still promotes substance in one's life and possibilites although false.

06-20-04, 09:37 AM
MommyTimesTwo
Doesn't the "meaning to life" theory imply that all people without that organized religion lack meaning in their lives? That seems kind of...I don't know, arrogant I guess. Like "We have meaning in our lives, but you heathens don't". Razz

06-20-04, 02:54 PM
jusork
No way. I meant religions provides meaning just as another method. Their meaning is more substanstial. I find mine just by living here. This method is a lot simplier.

06-20-04, 03:06 PM
MommyTimesTwo
I meant, do you think some religious people feel that way. I personally find it a lot easier to just be here, too Smile

06-20-04, 03:53 PM
honilov
I'm so glad that I don't have that 'just being here' feeling. I am happy that I have religion in my life, and if for some reason I found out that there was no God, and that the Bible is untrue, the first thing I'd think is that 'Hell' is 'very' true.

06-20-04, 04:08 PM
MommyTimesTwo
Honi

Please don't think I'm being rude or anything; I honestly do not understand organized religion. Can you please explain what the religion gives you over plain life?

What I mean is, what is life missing that religion gives you?

06-20-04, 04:43 PM
juanruiz
Christianity has long characterized the world as a nest of sin and iniquity, while the soul longs for the perfection of Paradise. This explains the early development of hermits and, later, monasteries, as a means of retreat from the sinful attractions of the world. Throughout the Middle Ages, the world was referred to as "hac lachrymarum valle" (this valley of tears). Christianity has always put an emphasis on how death brings relief. No wonder Ayn Rand called Christianity "a religion of death."

06-20-04, 06:24 PM
MommyTimesTwo
Doesn't that make it hard to enjoy life, if you are viewing it as a torment on the way to death?

06-20-04, 06:35 PM
juanruiz
"Doesn't that make it hard to enjoy life, if you are viewing it as a torment on the way to death?"

Times change, asceticism falls out of fashion. Even monasteries now have air conditioning and golf courses.

06-20-04, 06:41 PM
shelster
I see life as a few trials, sometimes big, sometimes small. These trials may help me learn, and be stronger for other things that can come my way.

But my meaning in life is not these trials on the way to heaven.

Its the sunshine in the hair of my daughter. Its the smell of a lilac in the spring air. Its the hug of a child, and a "kiss" from my dog Lizzie. I am here for all the friends I have been blessed with, and all the beauty the Lord has given this world.

I am here to appreciate and love that. And hopefully, share my knowledge and experience, love with others.

06-20-04, 08:21 PM
MommyTimesTwo
Shelly

What is the point of learning, and of enjoying life, if you are just going to die and spend the rest of eternity sitting on a cloud?

06-20-04, 09:59 PM
Sarai

quote:Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo:
Shelly

What is the point of learning, and of enjoying life, if you are just going to die and spend the rest of eternity sitting on a cloud?



MTT, couldn't Shelly easily turn that question on its head? What is the point of learning, and of enjoying life, if you are just going to die? Wink

To answer your original question, I think religion must fulfill some artistic need in a lot of people - even an atheist/agnostic like myself! Just like literature in high school - if you think too critically about it, you ruin the beauty of it. If you look at religion *uncritically,* it is just beautiful- the same way that literature and music and dancing are beautiful. Ceremony, ritual and all the other adornments of religion have a definite artistic beauty. I don't know if you have ever gone to a religious service with an uncritical mind, but when I do, I am often moved deeply by it. And I've been to a lot of religious services from a lot of different religions. I'm not religious, but I really enjoy religious services and ceremonies.

I think that's at least one need it serves for a lot of people - an artistic need. I suppose it must have something to do with the human ability to think abstractly. Somehow along with that skill came the instinct to enjoy beauty and order, rhythm and ritual.

06-21-04, 01:09 AM
stampeding turtles
The point is that religion,especially in the past, was felt to be a source of profound wisdom, but we, living in this information and scientific age, are more skeptical of that claim. Basically, many people now just say it answers no question that they need answered,i.e. it's irrelevent, but others say it still answers questions for them ...and there you have it!

Religion can also make the job of government easier by encouraging people to behave ethically. Those countries that have less 'religion', now rely more on surveillance cameras and other surveillance (DNA marking, large computer databases), to help keep people in line where a religious 'conscience' might have done that to a greater extent in the past. So yea, governments have historically used it as a means of social control I suppose, so it depends on your point of view.

Others you talk to feel that faith of some type is unavoidable in the midst of the very real uncertainty of human existence. In this case it is providing some type of comfort to our psyches I guess.

Religion also provided for a sense of shared community in the past, something that many feel is lacking in today's fragmented and niche sub-cultures.

So, even though we may have outgrown religion, intellectually speaking, in some ways there has been a price to pay, and we have to fill the void. That's why people embark on a lot of other spiritual pursuits that are similar to the role that traditional religion filled in the past. Some will say they have no need for anything that fills that void, but I bet they use some type of philosophy, entertainment, music, sex, or mind enhancing chemicals to achieve similar personal insights about life and the part they play in it. Pick your specific form of escapism or spiritual fullfillment.

06-21-04, 01:34 AM
tsaeb
Here is a very unusual perspective.

First, whenever we try to eliminate any thought of God, we necessarily go into His Holy Spirit mode, because we first have to think of our idea of Him to try to eliminate Him from our thoughts. This is one reason why I find God to be the inescapable God. To try to eliminate any thought of religion is easier, because there are so many man-made productions of it.

Second, even if I allow you to insist that you got God out of your head, you cannot remove all evidence of Him. You see, God is the Word, and, as such, He appears in language. Even among the heathen unexposed to God, they have their expressions which are usually written off as superstitions. However, we who are not heathen have our proverbs many of which constitute a religion and also a testimony unto some of the truths which are in holy books. Additionally, we have our literature, which is a library of sentences tantamount to our proverbs. Again, the inescapable God reigns, and most people are totally unaware of Him as the living Word in such proverbs and literary sentences, although as they speak proverbs and read literary sentences, they readily allow Him to rise up in their hearts and minds in all His truth with all His glory.

Since there is no death to the child of God, there is also no death to God. Burn all of His holy books, and find yourselves left with a tongue which no man can tame, because God has overtaken it. More power to Him!

Big Grin

06-21-04, 05:38 AM
shelster
Mtt, what is the alternative to learning and enjoying life?



Its kinda like celebrating getting older, cause what is the alternative? Death.

I choose to enjoy life, and learn and love and appreciate things because it helps me stay happy. If I didn't, I am afraid I would be bored, unhappy and bitter.

So, I choose to enjoy.

06-21-04, 09:41 AM
MommyTimesTwo
Sarai

I have, and I was also moved. Unfortunately my brain doesn't much do "uncritical" Roll Eyes I'm kind of stuck on super-logic mode lol But obviously I find religion, and Christianity specifically, utterly facinating. I read about it, I talk about it, but yet I still don't get it. Frown

ST--that makes a lot of sense, especially the progressing to other ways to fulfill that need. Kind of like reaching the top of Maslow's pyramid and realizing you have idea what "self-actualization" means lol. Thank you.

Shelly--that makes perfect sense. Thanks Smile

(especially the alternative to getting older part--I said that to my sister the other day. She's like, I can't beleive I'm going to be 34 (in EIGHT MONTHS lol). I said, well the alternative is to die, so what's your choice? She was speachless for a minute and then talked about something else! Big Grin)

06-21-04, 03:14 PM
Elexina
Religion gives people something to believe in, something to lean on, something to trust in and have faith in. Me, I don't need a religion to get that, but some people do.
But if it is all just a mess of lies, it wouldn't seem any different to me! Believers, finding themselves believing in lies, would be disillusioned, sure, but that's what faith is all about: believing without proof. Having faith that your beliefs are right. If they are proven wrong, well, I guess believers just have to find something else to believe in. Smile

quote:What is the point of learning, and of enjoying life, if you are just going to die and spend the rest of eternity sitting on a cloud?

Personal satisfaction, a sense of self-betterment and self-worth. Selfishness, maybe? I like learning, and studying, and all that other crap, personally. And I don't see any point in not enjoying life. If you can enjoy it, then why not? Big Grin


What's the point of religion, if it all has been a lie? Mind-control, certainly. A way to subjugate the masses. Something that made sense in the past and was used to the inventor's utmost advantage.

06-21-04, 03:26 PM
MommyTimesTwo
Why do those things have to come externally? Can't one believe in themselves?

I think what I'm trying to ask is twofold: why do some people need these things from the outside? and why DON'T other people?

06-21-04, 04:08 PM
Georgia85
I think human nature, for the most part, is weak and is constantly searching for something to help cope with life difficulties. Some turn to alcohol and drugs. Some immerse themselves into a career. Some lose themselves by spending hour upon hour surfing the web. Others veg out in front of a television. All these options gives that person an escape for when life get's too tough. The mind is constantly looking for answers...and religion (in any form) is one way many feel they can get answers.

06-21-04, 09:06 PM
Sarai
What is the point?

quote:Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo:
I think what I'm trying to ask is twofold: why do some people need these things from the outside? and why DON'T other people?



Mx2, now that I've given it more thought, I'm not sure that need has much to do with it. I still think an artistic instinct must play a part, but that is not a need for religion, so much as a tendency to enjoy it.

I think that believers believe because they can, not because they need to. If I could, I'd probably be a believer of some sort, too. The fact of the matter is, I simply can't. It's like telling someone to believe they can fly. Very few people could believe that, no matter how much fun it would be to believe it. That's how religion is, for me at least. It would be fun to believe in, and if it felt right to me, I'd probably be a believer too. I don't mind being a non-believer, but if I ever do find a belief that makes sense to me both emotionally and intellectually, I will probably embrace it.

You say that you believe in reincarnation and an after-life, and I even gather that you believe in psychic ability. In my opinion, you have a much more active religious faith than I do, even if yours isn't a conventional religion. I doubt you would say that you are needier than I am. I presume that you believe in those things because you can (somehow they feel right to you, or make sense to you), not because of a psychological deficiency or need. You can believe in psychic phenomena, reincarnation and life after death, and therefore you do. I suppose the same must be true for people of other beliefs, as well.

06-23-04, 02:14 PM
Elexina

quote:Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo: Why do those things have to come externally? Can't one believe in themselves?

Absolutely. And many people get along just fine without something external. But there are others who seem to need it.
I think it's very personal, as to whether one needs it or not. Religion itself is very personal and specific. Ask ten people why they have religion in their lives and you'll likely get ten different answers. I can't say why some need it. All I can tell you is that I personally don't. Why? I just never felt the need. But I understand that some people do. I don't fault them for it, I just don't agree with them. Big Grin

06-24-04, 09:35 PM
Sarai

quote:Originally posted by Elexina:

quote:Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo: Why do those things have to come externally? Can't one believe in themselves?

Absolutely. And many people get along just fine without something external. But there are others who seem to need it.
I think it's very personal, as to whether one needs it or not. Religion itself is very personal and specific. Ask ten people why they have religion in their lives and you'll likely get ten different answers. I can't say why some need it. All I can tell you is that I personally don't. Why? I just never felt the need. But I understand that some people do. I don't fault them for it, I just don't agree with them. Big Grin



Mx2 and Elexina, I am really baffled by your understanding that religious people are "needy." As I understand it, both of you believe in the afterlife (I gather this because you both believe in ghosts... correct me if I'm wrong). That makes BOTH of you a heck of a lot more religious than I am, since I highly doubt that there is life after death. Your assertion that the religious are needy strikes me as strange, because a belief in an afterlife is, to my non-religious mind, a religious belief. I don't think you two are needier than I am. You simply both believe that you have good, solid reasons to believe what you believe - as do people of other religious faith. You don't believe it because you need to, you believe it because you can.

06-26-04, 11:41 PM
Elexina
Sarai, I said some people. And I am not a religious person. I'm sure MTT would say the same of herself. I am a spiritual person, but I don't know if MTT would agree there. Seeing ghosts does not require religious belief or a belief in the afterlife. As far as I can tell, if there is an afterlife, ghosts are entities that have not yet gotten there, for whatever reason. One thing is entirely separate from another.
I also think there is a large difference between having a need, and being "needy."

06-27-04, 12:40 PM
Sarai
Elexina:

I agree that there is a difference between having a need and being "needy," and apologize for my poor choice of words! However, I still don't think you have more need than I do. Maybe I'm wrong - I don't know you personally - but from what I "know" of you from this site, you don't strike me as someone who has more spiritual need than I do. In fact, since I have *no* spirituality beyond wondering and hoping, I would argue that the opposite might be true.

As to your distinction between religious and spiritual, I understand your distinction, but I don't think it negates my point. Whether religious or spritual, you still have faith. Now, you may have seen or experienced something to prove your belief to yourself, just as Tsaeb believes God speaks to her, and just as Mahal believes the Gospels are obviously reasonable and verifyably true. However, whether or not what you believe has been proven to you personally, it hasn't been proven to others of us. That's fine and perfectly respectable, of course, but you must see how from an outsider's perspective your beliefs fall under "faith" category, just as Tsaeb's and Mahal's do. To me, whether one is "religious" or "spiritual" makes little difference. Faith is faith, whether it is the same faith that a million other people hold, or a faith that you alone subscribe to.

You say that "one thing is entirely separate from another," and I'm not quite sure if I'm understanding you correctly, but I think that you mean that a belief in ghosts is entirely separate from belief in an afterlife. Could you explain this in more detail? To me, since a ghost would be the spirit of one who has died, their existence would imply an afterlife.

What's your take on that?

06-29-04, 03:34 PM
Elexina
Sarai,
I'm sorry, you must have misunderstood me. I don't feel that I have a need for religion or spirituality in my life. I don't feel that I have a need, and I don't feel that I'm needy. And I don't think that everyone who believes has a need or is needy, I just think that some people need religion, while some see it as more of a comfort, and some don't need it at all, or just don't care.

Yes, I think that I have had ghostly encounters. I could be wrong, but my intuition tells me that they were ghosts. But I do not believe in a heaven-and-hell afterlife. I think we just die. Our energy continues and becomes something else, but we die. Ghosts, I believe, are what's left of our energy. Sometimes people are not ready to die and they cling to this life and appear to others in the form of ghosts.
That's what I think. But I could be wrong. It's happened before.

07-07-04, 01:20 PM
Sarai
Elexina, from your post, it appears that you believe consciousness can exist outside the human body. I haven't got a clue how that could be possible and am very doubtful, but I'm intrigued to know that a fellow non-believer whose posts I enjoy believes it. If you care to expand, I'd love to hear it, although it sounds like you've chalked it up to a hunch. Interesting- Thanks.

07-07-04, 02:51 PM
Elexina
I'm not sure that I ever said anything about consciousness, but as to whether it can exist outside of the body, I guess that would depend on what we mean when we say "consciousness." Something akin to astral travel, I assume?

07-07-04, 04:10 PM
Sarai
Well, if you believe that ghosts are our energy, which has will (that will being "I don't want to die,") that is strong enough to create a residual self that can appear to living people, that sounds to me like consciousness existing outside the human body. Yes, astral travel would be another example of consciousness existing without the human body. I doubt either is possible, but of course, I could be wrong, too. Wink

07-22-04, 03:17 PM
Elexina
Well, that is one way of looking at it. I don't know if that is the truth or not, nor do I know if that is exactly what I believe. It's your interpretation of what I believe, and that's fine because apparently I haven't been able to explain myself very well. The bottom line is, I don't really have any hard fast beliefs about ghosts or the afterlife or any of that. I can only judge by what I have experienced.

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