I have no addiction problems, my husband does. He chooses his life to be this way. There is nothing I can do about it. He has to change himself. We cannot change others.

I have a copy of the Blue Book from AA. I found the book loaded with wisdom that anyone could identify with, not just an addict.

An ex-addict, now ex-friend, hurt me badly thinking our friendship was something it wasn't. This is the problem, the Blue Book of AA says to make ammends to those you have wronged because of your addiction problems. My now ex-friend refuses to take that step.

She is now a dry drunk with a chip on her shoulder. I think, in her best interest, she needs to make ammends or at least recognize the pain she has caused others.

Am I out of line pointing this out to what I thought was a long time friend? Her behavior and attitude is hurtful to herself and others around her.

What should I say or should I drop it and say nothing, which I have difficulty doing?
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06-29-03, 12:26 PM
Sherasi
WF, you CAN make amends in your own heart if the actual person does not want to make peace also. You just need to abandon those hurt feelings, recognizing that people do not realize what they are doing under the influence of mind-altering substances. Permanent personality changes CAN occur from long-term exposure to these substances.

You need to come peace with YOURSELF and YOUR feelings and to not dwell on what was and just deal with what is now in your life.

06-29-03, 03:02 PM
MrsS
Wildflower, one of the hardest lessons I ever learned is that no person can work another person's steps....You can only take your own "Searching and fearless" inventory....this truth is so universal (and the effort/temptation to inventory others is so common) that the practice is often referred to with some derision as "the 13th step"
Try to let go of this in your heart, your friend will get there when and if she gets there.
All my best.

06-29-03, 03:34 PM
Oceangurl
I know someone who went through this process with AA. They said that no one can encourage them to take this step, they must want to do it for their own reasons. Sounds like your friend is not ready to own up to the hurt she has caused. Give her time, if she's involved with AA, she'll eventually reach that point.

07-01-03, 12:51 AM
stanbee
Many alcoholics can do nothing until they hit rockbottom with no codependents to get them thru.

My once friend showed up at my door in DT's, slobbering, wet pants and a huge purple hemotoma on his ear - lurid against fair skin and natural strawberry blond hair.

I called his prominent younger brother for advice.

"Close the door on him and don't look back. That is how the family rescues him from himself."

Sad , he was from an old American family. Once clerked for the Attorney General of his state. Never knew he was alcoholic until I found the bottles of household solutions under his sink, all filled with Vodka. He was never unkind or hateful, just uncertain or contrary at times. The vodka filled plastic containers exposed him.

Let it go. Do both of you the favor.

07-01-03, 05:26 AM
Wildflower63
I know in my head somewhere that everyone is giving me the best advice possible. I guess that's why we are here. We are willing to give strangers help and advice and maybe a different perspective. I guess that isn't what I wanted to hear.

I'm an RN. I am fantastic with family issues and advice. I see this objectively. I don't see myself objectively at all. I'm very unhappy. I have had a lot of beatings (no, not physical). I have had people let me down because of ethical reasons.

The problem is, I expect ethics out of everyone I encounter. Otherwise, I completely disregard them as not good people I wish to be associated with. I can usually catch ethics in a casual conversation with some pointed questions. I make a judgment call based on their answer and ethics. There are times when I don't catch it though. The older we get, the more sohphisticated at hiding we are.

Do I go around hurt all the time because I expect too much out of people? If I gave examples of my addict friends behavior over about 15 years to you, subject by subject, you all would agree that there were many unacceptable acts that she has done to me.

Should I still be a friend and forgive her because she hasn't reached the step of 'making amends' and possibly never will. Is it her fault that she hurt me or does she really believe she didn't hurt me many times, based on not well finishing the program, that her standard of ethics are much lower than mine and forgive or should I hold her responsible and get her out of my head and heart? Should I ignore that she exist when I do care about her and all I want from her is to own up to the pain she has caused me. I'm talking 15 years and I really had no other 'true friend', if that is what you want to call it (I did). That, I would love some input on. Again, I'm not too objective about myself or my life. You guys are.

I wish that I could say that I had a true friend. I don't. Yeah, friends that I would put on a completely different level, yes. I am talking about female friendships. We aren't like guys. Guys can only take so much of us and still be understanding. I don't mean that as a male bash. Men have been very good to me, with some exception, as a whole. I couldn't have begged for better friends when I was dumped in this foreign neighborhood at 16. The guys befriended me, not the girls. I was too trailer park for them. I wanted friends at that age. I have a father, brother, and son I love dearly. I don't ever want to intentionally hurt men. They have been too good to me and I'm not talking sexual relationships, just to be there as a friend.

Guys can't replace the female friendship though. They try, but, again, they are just different. I couldn't name all the women here that have been more supportive than women in my real life. I couldn't name them all. That is more than I have ever gotten in real life by a zillion times over. Sad, get a life material. But, true. Although my head agrees completely with all the advice given, my heart wants to hear something better about her.

I got on a little tirade about addiction problems only because my husband did something upsetting. Sober people don't act like this. I wanted to hate all addicts and drunks for the pain they have put me through. I know in my head that there a lot of people that come out to be better people because the did follow the steps of the Blue Book. I want my friend (I should say ex-friend) to see this. She doesn't. I can't do a thing about it.

07-01-03, 07:51 AM
windblowing
It is hard to understand the problems of addiction unless you have walked that path.

07-01-03, 09:44 AM
Elexina
Even the strongest among us can be hurt be the actions of others. The age-old adage, "words can never hurt me" is simply not true. Sticks and stones lead to physical bruises, but those are shallow and will heal. Mental and emotional injuries are often much more difficult to get over.
You cannot be a saint. I understand that your friend has gone through a very difficult time and is perhaps not capable of being rational or thinking through the correct steps to recovery. But you can't force those steps on a person. She will come to them when she is ready.
You should not hate her, because it is not really her fault. It is the disease. But that does not mean you have to love her. She has harmed you, and that is not something to be taken lightly.
You may be able to understand her actions and come to terms with them, you may even be able to forgive her, but that does not mean you should stand around and wait to get hurt again.
Perhaps she is just not in a place where she can be your friend. She needs time and space and eventually she will realize what is best for her to do.
Do not confront her or force her to take a step before she is ready, but if you do truly care about her, you can be there for her when she comes around. In the meantime, take a step back. We all have enough troubles in our own lives without taking on the troubles of others.

07-01-03, 01:38 PM
Georgia85
Wildflower...what is it that you want to hear?

My opinion is this...while it's true she hurt you, keep in mind it was during a time when she was drinking and there is a very good possibility that she is not even aware of the pain she caused. If you re-hash it with her and force her to face it and make amends you probably won't get very far.

You said she was a good friend. And I'm sure you were a good friend for her. But what kind of friend can we be if we don't forgive and forget? If we can't forgive...then it's time to move on.

You are not alone. My ex-fiance was a drug addict and alcoholic. For my birthday one year he gave me a $2.00 previously viewed video (Liar, Liar)....in a used pizza box! Does he even remember doing this now that he's sober....nope! Do I remind him of this...occasionaly. But what is done is done and we move on. We love and accept our friends...flaws and all.

I hope this has offered some insight to your situation. Smile

07-02-03, 12:01 AM
stanbee
Maybe you need to have Dr Laura go for your throat, in her tough love no bs way. What a shrike.

Why do you expect additicts to act properly? Find a nicer friend. You know that what you want to hear is not appropriate. luck in your choice.

07-11-03, 07:36 AM
clarebear
Ok this post isn't gonna be what you want to hear either but here goes.. (tough love) It sounds like you don't really care what kind of friend you have as long as you have one. You mentioned not having a lot of friends. She may not be a good friend but.... she is all you've got so you'll take her. You say over the past 15 years she has done many unacceptable acts to you. You are upset because she won't tell you she is sorry for what she did to you. Based on what you say, she has pretty much treated you badly throughout your entire friendship. I'm not trying to be mean but you have been in this situation before. You are in a bad relationship with your husband, but he's all you and your kids have so you stay. Even though he isn't a good person, he is all you have so you will take it. Same thing with the friend. Even if she does apologize to you, is she really the kind of person you would even WANT to be friends with. You say that you set a high standard for people and they are either in or out. Everyone makes mistakes. Even the best people can cause you pain or have bad judgment. You ask if you have too high of expectations. It is not unreasonable to expect a relationship to be equal based on trust and honesty and respect. If these are not core qualities in your relationship then it is time to let it go. Don't hold on to relationships because that is all you have. These are questions that you don't need to answer but just think about to yourself. What does she offer me in my relationship? Can I trust her? Does she enhance my life by being in it? Is she supportive? Is she someone I respect? Do I value her opinions? Do we have the same core beliefs? Does she make me feel good about myself when I am with her? Does she love herself? (If she doesn't she sure can't love you). Wildflower, even if she admits what she has done is wrong, will that really change anything? You need to take a long hard look at why you want to continue the relationship. If it is all you have, then you have to sort those issues out within yourself. You deserve better. Remember, nobody can treat you badly without your permission. You set standards and boundaries for yourself. Low self esteem is not a free ticket for others to abuse you. Maybe you should get a life. Not in the "get a life you loser" way. Don't be a doormat anymore. Good Luck to you. Smile

07-11-03, 10:34 AM
Wildflower63
You made an excellent point Clare. I hadn't thought about it in that way. I guess that I may be hanging on to what was and not looking at what is. I think she has a self confidence problem. She is a very jealous type of person. I think that jealousy and hate go hand and hand. I also think that low self esteem breeds jealousy. She doesn't want my help, encouragement, nothing.

She pulled one big thing on me. It was a pretty horrible thing to do to me. She said we weren't friends anyway. Nice time to tell me now that we are enemies, huh. It was over a guy I was seeing before I moved back in with my husband. We would disagree, get mad at each other, and come around. I found she was spilling everything she knew about me, which wasn't anything I hadn't already told him anyway. But, the scary part was when I went to WalMart the evening before and he knew what I bought. This kind of thing kept going for four months. I was terrified. I thought my apartment was bugged. She knew I was scared, yet kept doing it anyway.

Not that he is innocent at all. I had told him conversationally about my friend as he did with his friends. Nothing insulting, just talking. He poisoned up every word and fired it at her. He put everything either out of context, took one sentence that sounded bad and left out the rest, and added things with a grain of truth to them. As you can imagine, she was furious, just as he wanted her to be to spill the beans on me. She never confronted me with these things ever. I'm sure she kept a promise to him not to say anything. So, she allows my mentally off balance boyfriend to come between our friendship.

Well, there was nothing to spill. I tried very hard to explain the situation to her. This was conversation taken way to far with intention to hurt her for manipulation purposes. She wouldn't believe me. She should have. His instability was the reason our relationship did not work out so well. But, he would buy them dinner, give them things. I feel sold out, sold out pretty cheap at that.

I found out about it after he told me. I made every attempt to explain to her what was going on and why. She was being used. She, having low self esteem, didn't want to believe that. He has a few bucks in his pocket and is a good smooth talker. She bought every word of it. I believe she was jealous from the time I got my first nursing job. She always had more money than I did by differing means. Now, she ran that dry and was working for a fraction of what I made. Keep in mind, we are talking about jealous people. He gave her the reason to hate.

She has never know me to lie to her ever in 15 years. Why would I lie now? I was in the relationship with him. I know the type of nasty things he can pull out of his own jealousy and insecurity problems. I put my foot on him more than once. What they both did was clearly very wrong. He stopped making excuses and did own up to it. She never did. They apparently still have gossip sessions about their mutual hate for me.

I put my food down hard for the first time. If she is sober, I see no further excuse for her going after my men. This is well beyond flirtation. Four months of info flow that horrified me. I'm getting no reasonable explanation at all why she hates me, and she does hate me for some reason that I have no idea about. I'm the same as I always was. She sobered up and changed a lot.

I traveled quite a few places with this man and sent her post cards thinking she was my friend and would be happy for me. At that time, our relationship seemed to be going well and had a future. Wrong answer when dealing with jealous people. It gives them more reason to hate. They want to see everyone miserable.

At first our relationship worked out fantastic. We had a lot in common. We could talk for hours. We had a lot of fun together. His horrible acts of jealousy and insecurity are abusive material to continue a relationship with. I don't care how much money he has in his wallet. I had told her of these problems. She was not ignorant of the situation.

Well, now they are just best buddies. Although the only thing they have in common is mutual hate for me to yack about. I'm fed up with being dinner time gossip for hate purposes. I did nothing to either one to deserve this. I didn't want to commit to him given his jealousy and insecurity problems were destroying our relationship. He said he was getting help, yet no improvement at all. She says it's none of my business because we aren't friends anyway. Well, that sure was news to me!

I always excused ill behavior on her part due to drinking, poor upbringing in an abusive home, and ignorance of not knowing better. This one went well past anything I could excuse any more. I was getting pretty sick of it anyway. So, there is this three way circular thing going. He goes running his mouth at her every time he has a problem with me. They are both jealous sorts that understand this mentality. I don't.

I have written her and sincerely apologized for hurting her with things I said in anger. I mean it. I do still care for her. I don't expect to be close like we were. No, I don't trust her anymore. She blew that out of the water. I do enjoy her company. There are a lot of things I really like about her character. But, there are also many things I completely disapprove of her character.

I usually made a choice on whether someone's good out weighed their bad. Maybe I need a different less lax approach. I repeatedly have had problems with people I associate doing things I don't approve of and I end up getting hurt over it. They aren't little things for the most part either. I don't think my standards are too high. On some things I value her opinions. She isn't the best one in the world at making good decisions. She is good with people problems that I am weak at. No, we have very different values.

I'll have to give some thought to what you said. It is very hard for me to give up on people I care about. I tend to get a little relentless when I see them doing something stupid and I butt in trying to stop them from causing an obvious problem. She resents this. I'm not the greatest people person and a social moron on top of that. My intentions are good. People don't always see it that way though.

Thanks. You suggested some things I need to give serious thought to.

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