I am having a big problem with my alcoholic husband and his behavior. I do not approve of his choice of friends. I feel that he is hurting his entire family with his addiction. I would appreciate any input on the subject.
We have been separated, but not divorced for several years and gone our separate ways. We have maintained a decent rapport with each other throughout, but not in a marriage or relationship context. We now have our family together again under the same roof. I feel that our family is much more important to me than it is to him.
Our children are in their teens and desperately need stability and parents that I have found myself unable to do alone. My problematic son got me evicted from my apartment. I would go to work only to find the party was at my place. I lost my job over personal phone calls from the kids and distraction over personal problems (like having a roof over my head). I had to send my son to his father. I couldn't handle him at all.
This was not a good situation for him given that he is very problematic. He was left alone constantly with frozen food in the refrigerator getting no guidance at all. I want my son, but can't keep him if I cannot control his behavior to the point that he keeps costing me the roof over my head with eviction. The only way I feel that my kids will have some stability and guidance is if we pull our resources together as parents and give our children a home. I don't know how to work this out. It isn't that I don't care about my husband and never was. I couldn't tolerate his alcoholism and the behavior that went with it.
I have asked him if he did not drink, just how many of his current friends would he truly consider friends. They ALL have drinking problems, divorce, and some sort of legal problems directly related to their drinking. My husband does not consider anything that there is not beer and fellow addicts involved with fun at all.
He makes a point on Christmas day to visit the club he belongs to (yes, they serve beer there) to wish his friends a good Christmas. I don't go with him. I get quite bored with the crowd. They all share a common addiction problem that I don't relate to. I am criticized for thinking I am better than. It isn't that. I don't approve of addiction problems and don't find the company enjoyable at all. They are nice in a superficial way, but have many problems beneath the surface. Most cannot be trusted with much of anything. I see a lack of character that I don't wish to mingle with.
I recently found while cleaning a picture taken a few years ago where they were playing some sort of game passing something small between each other by mouth of him and a woman employed as a bartender. Would a sober person do this on Christmas day? I seriously doubt it. Although we were separated at this time, I found the picture with absolute disgust. Christmas is a time for family. He has alive parents, a sister, and two children. What is up with the bump and grind party on Christmas day?
I don't expect him to be faithful to me given that we had been separated for a several years. That isn't what upset me at all. You can have a beer on Christmas day with your family. Family is a little boring without the fellow addicts though. I found this bump and grind drinking party to be absolutely disgusting given a man his age with family to spend the holiday doing.
If it were a party given before Christmas day, I would be a bit more understanding. It wasn't. He makes an appearance with family then takes off for the evening festivities which he would much prefer doing. I very much want my kids to have a decent life.
It hurts me knowing that he prefers this sort of activity to spending time on the holiday or any other time to spending much needed time with our kids. I feel my children are cheated out of having a father. He is alive and can easily see them anytime. He doesn't choose that. Many times we don't really get together with family at all because of work and other things in our lives. Holidays are an exception to that. What about his parents and sister? Shouldn't he care about seeing them as well? It is very clear where an alcoholics priorities are.
I have watched a steady decline on his decision making, morality, and behavior as a whole because of his alcoholism. I find him to be a poor example of a father for my children. I don't want my son thinking that this is acceptable behavior as a man. I don't want my daughter expecting or accepting this sort of thing out of a spouse. I will not deny my children time with their father. The problem is, he is too interested in his friends that he drinks with than his own children. I want my children to feel loved and cared about by their father. He does love and care about them. Unfortunately, the drinking wins out every time.
We are now in complete disagreement about my sons presence at the club he belongs to. Since it is private, children are allowed in. My problematic son told me that on of my husbands friends passed him a joint with a group of my husbands friends present. My son is 15. There were no objections from anyone. My son was glad that he didn't take it because his father came around very shortly afterwards. I do not want my son at the club at all. He is problematic enough as it is. I do not want him identifying addictive behavior as an ok thing. He taller than many of the adult men there. At his age he understandably wishes to be treated as an adult and one of the guys. My husband feels that it is his right to take his son around his friends and will address this issue with them. Why bother? They see nothing wrong with it. I do though.
The addiction is a very powerful thing. It does get that bad given enough time. It is hurtful to those around an alcoholic. These are only a very few problems I have encountered dealing with an alcoholic. It is a very bad thing on everyone. I realize that I cannot convince him to stop drinking if it is not his choice to do so.
What can I realistically do to stop being hurt by his behavior? Can I actually convince him to spend more time with the kids that desperately need him? They love him very much. Can anyone actually convince an alcoholic to get help when they don't desire it? This is eating me up inside. **************************************************************** 10-09-02, 02:55 PM babthrower Wildflower, what a terrible situation to be in. The trouble is, you cannot convince your husband to be a caring responsible father. You tried leaving. It didn't work because you couldn't manage on your own.
People like your husband have character disorders. He's not 'mentally ill', he just continually makes selfish, pleasure-seeking choices, and this behavior is now ingrained into his character. Someday he may change, but your urging will have no effect. He sees you as a nag, and prefers to be with his 'friends'.
Maybe you should consider a compromise based on realistic assessment of what you can do, not what you would like to do.
Take your children, except your problematic son, and do your best on your own, even if you need to get help from social services. Be very honest with your children. Tell them what you need from them, and tell them that if you tried to save all of them, you would probably fail. Sometimes there is only room in the lifeboat for a certain number.
If you stay in the home, your son will very soon behave as his father does, and treat you as his father treats you. This gives a terrible example to your other children, both sons and daughters. Since you cannot manage your son, it might be that he must be 'let go', for your sake and the sake of the other children.
It might be very helpful if you could get family counseling for yourself and your younger children, to help them understand the choices you have made, and will make. They need to understand that his behavior is wrong; that your son has taken the 'easy route', following wrong example; and that you want a better life for the rest.
10-10-02, 02:31 AM Wildflower63 Bab, you made an excellent assessment of the problem. This is the aspect that I am having a great deal of difficulty dealing with, my son. I have two kids. My daughter has just turned 12. My son will turn 16 in December. I feel that if I leave him with his father, he will not get any guidance or parenting that he needs badly. Soon enough he will be a grown man. At that point, there is nothing left that I can do. But, he is still a teen.
After two letters asking me to leave my apartment, I talked to the landlord each time. He agreed to see how things went. I warned my son repeatedly. He choice in friends is poor. Out of complete frustration with his stupid antics with his friends that I could not control, I did send him to live with his father. He would visit. I quickly got evicted anyway.
I went into a total panic at that point. I worried constantly about just what I was going to do. The last straw was losing my job with a mandatory leave of absence to straighten out my personal life that my employer felt was distracting me from my job. With no job, another apartment was not even a possibility. That was a very devastating blow to me. I felt that I had lost everything, including my son. I still haven't really recovered from that one. I don't feel control over my life. It seems to be played out by the acts of others.
I lived very close so that I could be near my family and their father. I can't give up on my son. About the only thing I have in life that I dearly love are my kids. I worry a lot about my son. I do feel there is hope for him, but not with his father being the only influence. I don't feel right leaving him behind. He is a teen doing stupid things that I feel can be helped even if my husband can't. I feel trapped by it all actually.
I cannot go on public assistance to be home. I have too many assets to qualify for anything. I tried to buy a house after the eviction to be turned down because my husbands credit reflected on me. Given the ages of the kids, the neighborhood I now live in is good. My son didn't have the difficulties until I moved into the apartment complex where he met his "cool" friends that he thought were so much fun.
I have good employment opportunities, but I don't feel that I can take advantage of any of them because I am the only one who takes any responsibility for these kids at all. Teens are so difficult. I would rather have a pack of pit bulls loose while I go to work than an empty apartment with teens to do what they want. A lot goes on. My daughter is developing enough that my son's friends are looking at her. The last thing I want is for her to get involved with that crowd of friends.
Although difficult, I have learned to accept that if we are to be just room mates until these kids are old enough to allow me more freedom, I may just have to stay put until that time comes. I am having a problem accepting what I find to be unacceptable behavior out of him.
I want my kids very much. I am scared, confused, and don't know what to do. Many times I feel like giving up. I have tried very hard to what seems that I have only made backwards progress. I'm finding it more and more difficult to keep trying. Thanks for your input. You really hit the nail on the head in many aspects.
10-10-02, 09:20 AM Cris5 Wildflower, A codependent person's life is ruled by the behaviors of others. Typically, spouses of alcoholics have issues of codependency. PLEASE read the book "Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melodie Beattie. It will help you understand what is happening to you and why. If nothing else, read the excerpt on Amazon.com . I was unable to link straight to the book, but if you search by title, it will come right up.
10-10-02, 02:43 PM babthrower Excellent post, Cris.
Another sad aspect is what your daughter is learning, Wildflower. She has an unloving father and a brother who is following in his footsteps as far as behavior goes. You are right in thinking that your son's companions will affect your daughter.
She is also learning that the mother is responsible for the behavior of the father and the son. If they drink, keep bad companions, and neglect their responsibilities, it is her fault. Perhaps she nags too much. Perhaps she does not plead with them enough, or in the right way. Perhaps her cooking is not good enough, or she does not keep the house clean enough.
She learns this when she hears disputes between the mother and the father/son. Mother criticizes son for not doing homework. Son, looking for excuse, remembers how dad blamed mom, and says, 'How can I do my homework when you're (1)always nagging at me (2) late making dinner (3) playing the television too loudly, or (4) whatever, and stalks out of the house to be with his non-judgmental 'friends'. It's all mom's fault.
Girls with unloving fathers often seem to say to themselves, consciously or unconsciously:
"I need that loving male element in my life. Why does my father neglect me? I am not worth love. I need to prove to him that my love for him is unconditional. If I'm good, if I'm giving, I will win his love."
Then they carry this across into relationships with other men when they got older. Such women expect little of the men in their lives. They work both at home and at a job, tolerate that their husband does not work, or if he does work, spends most of his earnings on his own pleasures, and so on. So a cycle is created.
If you cannot 'reach' your son, you should concentrate on your daughter. Love her. Talk to her. When you read the co-dependency books, have her read them too, and discuss what you read with her. This will help her understand the problems, and not get into self-blame and a sense of inadequacy.
The trouble with a situation where one child is 'acting out' as you son is doing, is that the misbehaving child gets all the attention. The other child learns from that either (1) I need to act out too, so I will get my share of attention, or (2) I must be good, and quiet as a mouse, so I will not make things worse at home; I don't really count here, or (3) I wish I didn't have to live here. It's horrible. Maybe if I had a boyfriend, we could get our own little place somewhere, and I could start living my life. I will prove to him that I really love him, and he will love me back, and our relationship won't be like this one.
By far the quickest way for a girl to learn these false and negative messages is if her father tells her his troubles. Alcoholics are very much given to blaming others and pitying themselves. Then the daughter will be primed and ready to listen to the same excuses from a boyfriend, and pity him for things which are mostly his own fault, and thereby find her love object - another substance-abusing, immature, irresponsible man.
10-13-02, 02:25 AM Wildflower63 Bab, I got the exact advice you are giving me from my DON when she wanted me to take a leave of absence to straighten out my personal life. I think very highly of her. I know she was trying to help.
When I was at wits end, I tried it. I understand the logic here. I emotionally can't handle it. I tried. I was absolutely grief stricken. Neither of my kids dealt with it well. They both missed each other a lot. I know what my son's life will turn out to be living alone with his father. I don't want him turning the same direction if there is anything I can do. I'm the only one he has to rely on at all. I believe there is hope for him, but not if I leave him here with his father again.
I have tried counseling and talked about my predicament with the kids, job, and living situation. I pretty much quit that idea. I have been given advice that is mind boggling to me absolutely void of any common sense at all. When I did follow a suggestion or two, it made things worse. I am now convinced these people get into psychology to seek their own sanity. I'm paying them to screw my life up even more?
The bottom line is, if I go, my son goes with me. I cannot take any other alternative to that.
10-13-02, 03:10 PM babthrower Yes, I had understood that from your second-last post. My advice about dealing with your daughter is based on your staying where you are.
I didn't advise about your son because since you have never been able to deal with your husband, and since your son is modelling his behavior on his dad's, his alibis and ways of dealing with your attempts to mold his behavior will also be successful, and you will have little influence on him. They will mutually support each other. That doesn't mean they won't fight between themslelves; but when it comes to dealing with you, they are allies.
Your daughter will see all this happening. The message she learns from it will damage her. That is why I think you should communicate with her all the way. She may not agree with your decision necessarily, but at least your attempts to explain what is going on will make her believe that she counts for something.
10-13-02, 03:14 PM Cris5 Wildflower, First, if your counselor did not even hint at the possibility that codependence is at the core of many of your problems, he or she failed miserably. Find a new therapist or do some research on the topic yourself.
Second, if you have to leave with your son, by all means leave with your son! But know that no matter what you do or say as you attempt to make others behave the way you want them to, IT WON'T HAPPEN. The only person you can "fix" is yourself. The way you have been handling things in your life obviously is not working. You can't force people to change. It's time to accept it. Start working on your own behaviors, your own life. You spent every last bit of energy looking after the other people in your life, fixing their mistakes, suffering because of their irresponsible behavior. Who's been taking care of you?
11-02-02, 06:16 PM FredPuli Al-Anon is the branch of Alcoholics Anonymous that exists for the families of alcoholics. Find out from AA about meetings It consists of people who are just like you. They are not alcoholics but they suffer from the alcoholism of their family member(s). They can certainly help you. Why ? Because every single one of them knows what it's like; they are there now or have been there. I'm a recovering alcoholic; my wife found that it was such an enormous relief to find others who understood and could help her when I drank that she could hardly put it into words.However well-meaning others are, only someone who has or had the problem can really understand .Your husband may never accept that he's addicted to alcohol. That's his tragedy; it must NOT be yours.
11-05-02, 03:03 PM SeattleRon wow, this is something i never thought i would share in answerpool or anywhere for that matter. Wildflower, i'm an alcoholic. i'm the type that if i see 12 beers in the fridge i'm gonna drink them all. if i see 2 i'll drink'em both. I won't stop till everything is gone. Granted i don't drink everyday, but I know what I am. Pay attention cause I'm going somewhere with this. after I got my DUI last year i was ordered by the court to get an alcohol evaluation. I was ordered to go to Intensive outpatient alcohol treatment. Thats where you meet with A.A. and other support groups. I stil drank. No matter what any psychologist says, bottom line its up to the person to change. If the person admits they have a problem, thats half the battle, but they still gotta want to change themselves, no ammount of therapy, treatment, classes, no nothing is gonna make them change unless they want to change themselves... i myself don't think i have a huge problem, alcohol never got in my way at work or personal life, its just for me i absolutely will not stop drinking as long as there is alcohol in the fridge. i drink about 4 times a week. I would like to change, but i think its too fun for me to do what I'm doing. Even though I know its bad for me, I still do it. Bottom line Wildflower, nobody can make him change but himself, if he wants to change he'll change, otherwise there is no convincing an alcoholic. Watch the movie Leaving Las Vegas, i thought that was a very true portrayal of alcoholism. I wish you much luck WildFlower...
11-05-02, 04:33 PM soaringhorse I am a alchoholic, and have to say it's been a long hard lesson for me. My parents drank, my friends drank and I chose to numb myself so life's traumas wouldn't hurt so bad. And guess what? It was still there when I sobered up, even more so. The think that was the hardest was not being around the people that drank for awhile, and I still have problems with it to this day. You have to decide that your life is going nowhere and you're tired of waking up hungover, and weak due to dehydration. There's nothing worse than a person all hungover from the night before grouching at you, because they have a headache and are nauseated. I don't miss those days, and are so grateful that I woke up and smelled the coffee. I will always be an alcoholic, but I just choose not to use. That's the bottom line. The greatest thing that came from all of this is that I appreciate life and all the beautiful things in this world that we are blessed with. It's all in the way you look at things, and my attitude has changed, Thank God! razz big grin razz
11-06-02, 01:25 AM Wildflower63 This one isn't easy for me. The main problem I have is that he ignores his kids. They essentially have no father because of his drinking. He isn't one of these types who drinks at home. He desires the social aspect of it. I think that is one strong factor in why he doesn't stop or at least slow down a bit. I have seen such deterioration in him that he doesn't over the years. That bothers me a lot. I know I can't convince him to do anything he doesn't choose to. It is extremely difficult for me to live with though. He is in complete denial that his behavior could be the problem. It's everyone else that is.
At least when I had my own apartment, I could pull off a line to the kids when he never gave them the time of day. I can't do it any more. They notice he has been drinking. They notice when he has been smoking pot too. They are to the point that they don't even expect him to be there for them for anything. They are right. He isn't there for them at all. The apartment wasn't a good living situation for either of the kids. I couldn't work and keep the kids under control. The party was at my place when I was working. The social environment was a bad influence on them also.
I have worked very hard with my son that was busy experimenting himself and getting into quite a lot of trouble. He has made a lot of progress. His father isn't exactly a good influence on what I have been trying so hard to teach him. I don't want my daughters expectation of men to be of such a low standard as what she sees out of her father.
Myself, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I can't keep dragging these kids around from apartment to apartment. They need a stable home. He owes me quite a few favors. I need a roof over our heads. He has agreed to let us stay here until I can get our things back that were essentially stolen. He says he wants us to stay here. Why, I have no clue. His actions do not click with his words at all. Together we can give the kids a better shot at life than either one of can separately. Common sense would dictate get out, but it isn't that simple.
I have asked him why it is that he repetitively needs or wants something to drink or smoke. He says he just likes it. Most people can drink and put it down. They can take it or leave it. What is the difference in alcoholics and people who aren't? I don't understand why's of it all. It appears to be a circular form of self destruction and is very hurtful to those around them. I don't get it! Since I don't understand this, I probably do lack empathy and get upset over it quickly. Could someone explain this to me?
11-06-02, 01:41 AM SeattleRon there just isn't a true definition of an alcoholic, psychologists say there is, but they aren't alcoholics so all they know is what they read from textbooks. everyone is diffrent when it comes to alcoholism, some will pawn their left kidney for a drink, some just can't put it down. Some drink cause they are depressed and want to forget their problems, everyone drinks for a reason. I have mine, I can turn down a beer, if i'm the designated driver, I have no problem turning down a beer. But as soon as i drink one beer and i start to get "the feeling" know what I mean? I just got to empty out the bar. I can put it down, but I can't also. I will drink the bar dry..
Wildflower there is no saying how to get people to stop, alcohol has been a problem for me since I was 13 years old. I haven't figured out how to limit myself yet. I think thats my biggest problem is knowing when to cut myself off.
11-06-02, 02:34 AM babthrower Wildflower, I know his attitude is incomprehensible to you. You think about his children, he doesn't. But surely that's the point. He's alienated himself emotionally from everybody. That's the price he has chosen to pay in return for the freedom to follow his impulses. His pleasure-seeking behavior dominates his life.
You can't 'fix' him.
Use him for the sake of the children, since he's putting a roof over your heads.
Do join a group. Encourage your kids to join one too. When they see that some other parents also provide only minimum care to their family members, and when they realize that whether or not we have perfect parents, we still have good reasons to make decent, caring lives for ourselves, they can accept their situation and make the best of their lives.
If they keep looking to their dad for acceptance and love, they will always feel deprived. It would be good for them to realize that other kids with self-absorbed parents exist, and that many of them are building constructive lives.
11-06-02, 07:22 AM soaringhorse I just want to say, I applaud you for being there for those kids, it's hard for them especially at this stage of their lives. Being a teen ager is hard enough on them, as it is. I'm sure there will be repercussions of the alchoholism, believe me, I still can't forget. But it's all in how they cope with it. I always said, I can't wait to grow up and get out of here, and just from my experience, it is so important for at least one parent to communicate with you. That doesn't mean screaming and nagging but understanding and caring. I take with me from my experience that it was not the person, it was the illness, that made them behave the way they did. The best thing to do is try and be there for them, and make sure that line of communication is open. I know that's not easy, lol, my teen ager just clams up most of the time. But he still "Wuvs" me. LOL
11-06-02, 10:06 AM chanceygardner I don't have first hand experience, but my wife's best friend has been through a very similar experience and many is the time that we have helped her out emotionally and on relocation, etc. In the end, she had to leave him taking 2 of her 3 kids. The other (eldest) girl still wanted to stay with her father and in the same place as her friends, horse, etc. and would not go with her mother...at all. When her mother took her she was so abusive of her mother and created so many problems in the new home that she let her go back to her father. Of course, it was not at all easy for her to do that. The girl was 12 at the time. Her father promised all kinds of things but of course never delivered. Now she is 16 and has realised what a waste he is. Her ex-husband has been told that if he does not stop drinking he will be dead within a couple of years (liver problems)...he is 41. Despite his daughter and his family trying to get him to stop drinking, he doesn't. The girl has asked her mother is she can move back with her after the end of this school year (thousands of miles away from her right now) and he will be left on his own. I don't know what I'm trying to tell you, except there's no way that your ex will follow any advice, and like previous posters have said, it's only something he can do for himself. Maybe if your son went to live with him he will grow to realise the truth behind the facade and become a better person for that. The other opinion is that there's never an easy way out of this situation; the mother simply couldn't cope with the 3 kids with the eldest so much trouble. In the end, things have worked out OK for her I believe. She will have all 3 kids back, the younger 2 are normal and happy having lived away from their father for 5 years (she tried for a year to keep the eldest, but it was too much with all her other problems). The eldest is older and wiser now, but still seems to be very deeply affected by the experience of living with her father, but she is certainly better behaved to her mother than she was previously and has not taken to smoking, drinking, etc. She's quiet and a bit of a loner, but she still seems to have come out of the experience in one piece and not to have been irreperably damaged. I wish you luck.
11-09-02, 06:17 AM SeattleRon wildflower i wish i could give you better advice, but i can't. I have zero experience having children, because I have none of my own. I'm very sorry. All I can offer you is my own experience with my problem of alcoholism and hope that it offers you some kind of insight to what it is all about. As much as i would like to help I can't, except to offer you my point of view, and what I personally am going through as to provide some kind of light in the dark. Alcoholism, isn't a disease, it's something everybody learns and decides to either be a slave to or take in moderation or completely stop. No psychologist can say nothing to change my mind.....And thats an alcoholic... I'm speakin WildFlower off 4, 16oz tall cans, 2, 40oz Olde Enlgish, 2, 22oz Olde English, 5 shots of Jack Daniels, and a MilWaukees Best Ice 24oz... I can take'em, but I'm not proud of'em, Alcolol got the besty of me Wildflower, I'm surprised I can write these one things. WildFlower I care for you and your problem. I just wish I could offer you better advice than this, buit all I can offer you is I guess all my personal experiences. if you feel the need to or if you agre bore email me ok.. Please.... Ron Strong
11-09-02, 11:06 AM soaringhorse That is a good debate. I, personally, think it is a disease. But that's just my opinion, from my experience, I know that the things I've done while drinking weren't the norm, I also know how the effects of the blackouts, and the tolerance level I built up weren't there when I was born. I know this was brought on by me, putting the bottle to my mouth, and no one else did it. There's a interesting site, from a earlier post of mine on alcoholism, and I found this article on it. If you go to the home page it has a lot of information on this site, got to say thanks to Sherasi for that!
Symptons Hope you take a look at some of the signs of drinking, they are definitely signs that I have experience, anyone else? Soaringhorse
11-10-02, 02:12 AM SeattleRon i dunno, it's kinda tough. i don't believe that just because your dad was a drunk, or your whole are drunks that you automatically get the illness. Thats what they were telling me, since my grandpa drinks heavily, my dad must be a drunk also, and thats why i drink a lot. My dad doesn't drink that much, probably a couple beers on a special occasion. It's a big argument that could go on forever
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