What exactly is the definition of alcoholism? I'm not entirely sure if a certain family member is one. She meets some of the signs, but not all, but I'm pretty sure she is one. She told me recently that she quit for a week. I asked her, I said "Why did you start again?" And she goes "None of your business." Yep, that tells me shes a drunk. More signs, too, but I don't know where to start!!!
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09-06-02, 09:28 PM
DvdGStwrt

quote:Originally posted by carmen621:
What exactly is the definition of alcoholism? I'm not entirely sure if a certain family member is one. She meets some of the signs, but not all, but I'm pretty sure she is one. She told me recently that she quit for a week. I asked her, I said "Why did you start again?" And she goes "None of your business." Yep, that tells me shes a drunk. More signs, too, but I don't know where to start!!!



Alcoholism is addiction.

What is an addiction? When a want becomes a need. In the case of alcohol addiction (alcoholism) it is when the person needs the drink, and will do anything to get that drink.

There is a difference between need and want. We need to eat, we need to breathe, we don't need to drink alcohol - that is a want in most people. But for some there is a real need for alcohol.

The clearest sign of addiction is when the person addicted can't stop being addicted.

David

09-07-02, 01:07 AM
babthrower
Here is a site for self-test. Of course only the person him/herself can answer these questions. But you probably can answer #4, 6,7,8,9,10 and 11 if you know her pretty well.

I don't think that her anger is proof that she's an alcoholic. I can imagine moderate drinkers or non-drinkers might resent the question, too.

An alcoholic can go quite a while alcohol-free without stress if the disorder is not advanced and he/she is motivated. A moderate alcoholic probably can go without alcohol for a while, but feels anxious if he/she considers never again being able to drink alcohol. A severe alcoholic is in serious distress without alcohol.

It's when the alcohol is used to self-medicate in the case of other problems such as depression or bipolar disorder that the danger of addiction is greatest.

Patterns of alcoholism vary. Some use it continually - every waking moment. Some use it daily outside of working hours. Some use it once a week or on some such regular basis, but then there is a tendency to 'binge' - drink a lot. Some use it less often, but may go on serious binges that threaten their jobs and their personal safety.

The other question is, how much does the alcohol use or abuse damage the alcohol user and/or his/her family. If alcohol use causes rapid mood changes or reckless behavior such as promiscuity or dangerous driving, then no amount of alcohol use is safe.

Some people have had a habit of drinking one or two drinks every evening, with no harmful effects to health, work or relationships. It would be hard to convince such people that they have a problem.

Alcoholism.

09-11-02, 11:02 PM
anguilla
babthrower said:
"Some use it once a week or on some such regular basis, but then there is a tendency to 'binge' - drink a lot. Some use it less often, but may go on serious binges that threaten their jobs and their personal safety."

That sounds like the problem you're describing, carmen621 -- and it's a tough thing to deal with. It's like living with Dr. Jekyll smile and Mr. Hyde mad . One day you're with the coolest, funnest person you could want, and the next day you're enduring a drunk who can endanger his/herself and others in the same house. (I'm praying this person isn't driving!)

One more thing: I have been unable to find a non-religious support group for spouses of binge alcoholics. There is a non-religous support group for the alcoholics, called "Smart Recovery", but they have not yet instituted anything for the non-drinking side of the family. If any of you know of such a thing, I'd really like to know of it. Thanx.

09-12-02, 03:05 AM
babthrower
You could start one, Anguilla. Contact Smart Recovery and see where that leads.

10-02-02, 04:02 AM
Wildflower63
I think that you have answered your own question. There is a difference between social drinking and drinking. There is no clear cut line. You just know it when you see it.

Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about it. She has to decide to stop. Do not participate in enabling behavior and set limits on what you are willing to tolerate.

My husband is an alcoholic. It grew progressively worse over time. I got the same attitude you are getting when I would bring up the subject of his drinking. He acted like I was the one with the problem, not him. I eventually couldn't emotionally handle him coming home from bars every evening he worked acting as if he had been working the entire time. The bar is his mistress and my kids and myself always came second place. I left. I couldn't take it anymore. It was destructive and disruptive for our entire family.

You better do some serious talking about the subject now. As I said, it does get progressively worse. Tell her where your limits are. If you don't wish to live with an alcoholic constantly disrupting the household, getting into legal problems, and dealing with the possibility of other men in bars, tell her she will have to leave the home, especially if there are children involved. An alcoholic parent is not a good parent. DUI's and flings are bound to occur if she is hanging out with a bar crowd. Don't fool yourself. Make her think about her actions now. Don't let her drag your life down for years as I did.

[This message was edited by Wildflower63 on 10-02-02 at 04:21 AM.]

10-02-02, 04:27 AM
Wildflower63
Sorry, I missed the "family member" part. I assumed that you were talking about your wife. I also assumed that you were male!

10-07-02, 07:29 PM
FredPuli
Yes.But it sounds like early days. The fact that she mentioned that she'd stopped for a week is interesting. Why did she stop is the question , not why did she resume.I am an alcoholic, though not practising, ( "recovering" we say) and can assure you that any sharp response is prompted by fear. We say that the alcoholic is the last person to accept the fact. True, but my early feeling was as though I had just stepped on to the edge of a steep sand dune; you can already sense that you are sliding, make efforts to scramble back, get some but not all the way and slide back, each time more again. Her dry week was likely this first 'scramble'. Classically she'll be telling you 'I can stop anytime'; and she wants to believe it, too.She'll only be safe when she can say to herself 'I think I'll have a drink. Well, maybe not this minute ; in a few minutes/ an hour/later on perhaps ' but the drink never gets taken. The word 'alcoholic' is frightening to the individual but she ought to go to an AA meeting, to see what the real drinkers do!A week? Huh, they've only managed a minute or two at a time, but the two minutes just seem to have gone on and run into one another a bit!! . (I needed a drink before I went to my first one, naturally, but it's not necessary!) At this stage a little curiosity, "without of course necessarily BEING an alcoholic oneself ", may just be enough.It may be her first "two minutes".

10-08-02, 03:12 AM
babthrower
There are people who have stopped without A.A. But they were wise enough to see the path that lay before them, and take the necessary steps.

A wise friend (who councelled alcoholics) once told me that many people avoid clinical alcoholism because they realize early that they had a problem.

Some alcoholics who realize early that they have a problem (and hence cleverly avoid having the label 'alcoholic' tied to them) ask themselves:

(1) Is my drinking causing me trouble at work? Lateness? Feeling less than clear-headed?

(2) Do I have arguments over drinking with my loved ones? Or do I argue with my loved ones while drinking? Or after drinking?

(3) Have I ever done anything when drinking that caused me to feel embarrassed later?

(4) Have I ever had a car accident when under the influence of alcohol (no matter how iminor the accident)?

(5) How about my friends? Do any of them have any of the above problems? Most of them?

Number 5 is especially important. If we spend time with alcoholics or other addicts, their mind-sets begin to affect us.
- We think excess is funny.
- We make excuses for our bad behavior, or blame other people for it, or blame our working conditions, or even blame our society - which is really the silliest of all excuses.
- Fun equates to substance abuse. Without it, no fun.
'Social drinkers' can honestly answer 'No' to each of these questions. Those who have a mild problem have to answer 'yes' to some. If they want to avoid loneliness and despair in later life, they should take stock of themselves. The more years one hangs out with substance-addicted friends, the more deeply entrenched are the lies and excuses one makes to oneself, and the harder it is to beat the addiction.

11-06-02, 02:38 PM
SeattleRon
be very careful approaching you friend with this. if that person has a problem they will become very defensive and sometimes angry.
Even though you are trying to help and be a friend, the only help they can get is if they want to help themselves first.

11-06-02, 05:56 PM
soaringhorse
I know you just want to help this person, but they're on their own kid. She got offensive when you asked if she was because she knows its her problem and only she can take care of it. It's sad to watch them go through this, I know, my mom was reaallll bad. You just can't understand how a person can do this to themselves until you've been in their shoes. Well, I have and it's a grip on you that is so tight, you just want to say "Help! I'm drowning!" The reality is this person has to take a huge step, that's admitting it, and then go to the AA meetings or the care unit. I did the care unit, and I kept my mouth shut and I listened and learned. I thank god, I'm here today. I could've wound up in a ditch somewhere, and that's what woke me up. I wanted to live! I hope you can be as supportive to your friend as possible, just be there if they need ya. That helps alot.

Prayers and Hope!
Soaringhorse

11-07-02, 07:37 AM
chanceygardner
If you know her well, then you probably also know a good deal about what's going on in her personal life. There's a reason for someone to start drinking so much that it becomes a problem, and that reason has to be buried somewhere in that persons psyche. Marriage/relationship problems? Work problems? Money Problems? Low self-esteem (caused by any number of other problems)? Fixing the cause and not treating the symptoms is the answer.

11-16-02, 08:44 AM
carmen621
She gets drunk so often, I don't like to be around her. It's so she needs it now, every night. We were traveling, and we got to a hotel and she found out there was a complimentary bar, and went "Oooh!" Then because she didn't want to go down, she sends my dad out to a package shop so she can have some. We're in England right now, and all she's done so far is buy alcohol. There's tons of it available to her in the place we're staying, but whenever she goes to a store, she picks up another bottle of red wine. Got drunk with her brother the other night, and he felt sick the next day, and she didn't. She's a real bitch when she gets drunk, picks on her least favorite kid, and favors the one just like her. If she doesn't have a drink with her that night, like in the hotel, she panics. Not visibly, but so I can see it. It's without fail. ALL the time. Starts earlier and earlier. (In the day).
She's my mum, and she's not a social drinker, I can tell the difference. She's pathetic when she drinks, all emotional and mournful, and she's not my mum anymore. She's one of those nasty people who ignore everyone except for who they choose to communicate with. It's an up and down thing with her. She'll be saying that she loves me/us, and then she's like "yourrr not an adult, I AM. Go away." Pushes the fact that she's a drunk adult in my face like I want to b like her.
I always thought too that I'd like to drink. Socially, at least, and do the normal teenage partying thing when I'm staying at a friends house for the night or something. Now I'm afraid to do it.
My dad was saying to me the other night "I've seen alcohol do some horrible things to people."
This is when we were pulling away from the package shop, by the way. I called him a hypocrite and told him why, qnd he didn't say anything. He used to be an alcoholic, quit 15 years ago. I don't know. Maybe he likes her drunk. Easy lay.
I am almost positive she knows that she has a problem, otherwise she wouldn't have attempted to quit. and then failing and going back after a week shows that, too.
She has a lot of stress.
Past couple of years, my brother moved out. Basically he sexually molested me when I was younger, and a while back my younger sister. This all came to the light, and he still lived with us. Then it got to the point where none of us were comfortable with him in the house. She hates him, and it upsets her because she's a mother. I'm in the U.K. because my grandad died, her father. She has a disk problem in her back, which gives her a lot of pain. My dad is retiring in May, and we're probably going to have to move to where ever he gets a job.
Phew. If I think of anything else I'll come back and post it, but I've exhausted my mind for answers right now. Tonight we're going to a buffet. She'll get drunk, of course. Given there. Wonder what on. White Russians? Red wine? Rum and coke? some beer?
Thanks, to all, by the way.

11-17-02, 07:38 PM
soaringhorse
Carmen621, I really know what you're going through, you see my mom was alot worse! The bad thing about it is the disgust you have each time you see her doing this to herself. I know it's got to be hard, especially since you have had to deal with other issues as well. You can't make your mom stop drinking only she can do that. The sad thing about it is that she probably won't get to that point until she hits rock bottom. I just hope you take care of yourself and try to stay away from the heavy drinking, it creeps up on you the more you indulge. Believe me, it did me. I didn't get violent like my mom, but I did some things I can't remember. That's a true sign of an alcoholic, the blackouts. You need to go to an al-anon group, to understand how to deal with this. If anything else, don't help her drink, don't be her crutch like your father is. That's just making it worse. I just want you to take care of yourself, and try to make yourself strong! I just want to warn the situation can become worse than it is, and you got to be ready for it. My mom drank from the time she got up til the time she went to bed, all her living years with me. The hardest part is watching their health depreciate and seeing the evilness that comes from the alcohol. It's not a pretty sight! Just make sure you are safe, if it does get worse, okay? I hope and pray she wises up, but it's not in your hands, unfortunately. I also want you to look at this link, it's about denial, another member, sherasi, posted it for me when I wrote about alcoholism, my self.

Click here

You take care of yourself, and hang in there!
Soaringhorse

11-17-02, 08:25 PM
babthrower
Carmen, re my post above: she surely is an alcoholic, and a mean one besides.

Some people in your circumstances just keep a low profile at home, do their best at school, and live for the day they can leave home and start their own lives.

Others try and 'fix' things: They reason with the drunk, try to shoulder some of the burden, tell lies to cover up the drinking, even feel guilty and responsible when they fail.

The saddest thing is that the drunk cannot love. They are so self-involved they can't empathize with the feelings and sufferings of others.

Also the typical drunk is self-pitying and self-justifying. They claim to suffer worse, or be more sensitive to physical pain or emotional suffering than other people are.

(This is to deflect the very reasonable objections of others,

e.g.
"I drink because my mother died."
"X's mother died, too, and X doesn't drink."
"Yes, but I blame myself for my mother's death (this is B.S.) and so I grieve more.")

These deceptions and self-deceptions are hard for anyone to deal with, especially a young person who is expected to be a loving and obedient child.

If you can join one of the Alcoholics Anonymous-sponsored programs for teens (I've forgotten what it's called, but Alcoholics Anonymous can tell you if you phone their number) you may find some ways to deal with your very difficult circumstances.

Learn from her. That is the only good that can come of this. Learn not to make alibis for selfish, self-gratifying behavior. Notice how her friends, (if any), are substance-abusers also. (She will avoid friends who have moderate behavior: they show by example, and even by unasked advice, that her behavior is wrong and self-destructive, and she doesn't want to hear that. She wants friends who never judge her, or laugh at her behavior as if it were charming or amusing.)

Don't believe anyone that tells you it is wrong to judge her behavior. It is natural to judge bad behavior: how else do you learn good from bad? Don't feel guilty if you feel angry with her at times. But don't waste your energy in bitter resentment, either -- those emotions will drag you down into guilt and depression. Look upon her addiction as the sad effect of bad choices she made in her past. I'm sure she never said to herself "My ambition in life is to be a parasite on my family, and to be a pathetic drunk." It happened a little at a time.

Notice how ugly she looks when she's drunk.

Notice the contempt that others show her.

Notice these things, but don't feel ashamed. You didn't choose or cause this behavior.

Then figure out how you can avoid the trap that she fell into, so your own life will not be ruined.

01-24-03, 05:56 PM
LVLF
all the answers provided are such good, thoughtful things to consider, and I just want to add a little of my own thoughts and observations.
First of all, the core of the person she was before alcohol consumed her soul is still there. My sister, who is a felony probation officer and works with a multitude of addicts does not allow anyone to do any kind of name calling of her clients in her presence. She has learned to separate the person from their addiction... some of the nicest people she knows are crack addicts.
Our society is SO blindly unaware of how we practically train our children to grow up to have one kind of substance abuse problem or another. My example is parents who bring their kids with them to the bar at a very early age. I see it all the time. They give their kids a few quarters, send them off to play some video games, while they plop themselves down at a table, or the bar and proceed to drink and play pull-tabs all night. As the kids get older they see their parents as part of a social order, it becomes a natural thing to hang out at the bar, they become comfortable in that type of surrounding. The learn, certainly what their parents drink, and become familiar with all the terms, beers, boozes, etc. When they reach the age where they can obtain a phony I.D., the feel at ease in the bar, ordering like a pro. Once they reach the legal drinking age they are all set, and often by that time they already have a drinking problem.
I know families who think Sundays are for bloody mary breakfasts.
I firmly believe that alcoholism is an illness, but it is so socially acceptable that it goes untreated, and that by not admitting that the problem exists only serves to perpetuate the cycle.
I know of one person who finally had to draw the line and tell her in-laws that she and her family could no longer join them for any occasion, Christmas in particular, because by the time they would arrive, the in-laws were already so drunk that Christmas was ruined. She didn't see them for 6 years. She told them that she loved them, worried for them, but that she couldn't let it infect her life, or her children's any more than it already had.
Please take the advice of all who posted prior to my post, and remember, you can not control her, but you can control how her alcoholism affects you by limiting how much time you spend with her, and explain why, explain with kindness but honesty.

01-28-03, 01:39 PM
Shawn
I would consider someone to be an alcholic if they

lied about it
did it on a daily basis
start early in the day and continue throughout the day
can drink excessivley without getting "drunk"- sorta that immune thing
hide to do it
do it alone regularly
would rather drink than eat (ie grocery money spent on alcohol instead of food)

01-28-03, 06:37 PM
carmen621
Nothing significant has happened. She's aware that she's a bit of a cow, or more, Wink when she starts drinking, but she doesn't really think she has a problem. What cracks me up, is that on New Year's Eve, my birthday, she got drunk, which was to be expected, etc. She had a friend come down and visit, so there's another good reason. But when her friend started apologizing for being a bit weird (b/c she was drunk), I just flippantly said "Oh, don't be so silly. I'm used to it." I didn't say it with any sarcasm whatsoever, it was just a simple casual statement. Then, this sounds melodramatic, but my mum's eyes "changed" and she goes "Yeah, luvvy, no worries, she's used to it."
It hurts her feelings. Oh, c'mon! I don't give a crap if it does or not. Sorry, but I don't. I can't feel sympathy for her when she has a problem and does nothing about it. It's pathetic. Just makes me more eager to leave my house. I love her, of course, but I just don't like watching her drink every night, regardless of whether she gets smashed or not. And her idea of drunk is when her capability to walk is gone. Ridiculous. It's gotten so I can tell when she's had one sip even, I'm so used to it and trained, I can pick it up on other people, and when they've been getting high, too. I really wish I couldn't, because realistically, what does that say about you when you can tell the difference? Not something positive.
Not much I can do in my situation, her being my mother and all. My dad doesn't do **** about it except doesn't bother her about it, bc she'd overreact something major. He's a bit passive when it comes to stuff like that; she insists on being right, and he knows it, so he lets her a lot of the time. Marriage = partnership, yay or nay? They're still madly in love, they're just....stupid. Roll Eyes
Thanks all. Big Grin

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