I am curious, when do you think a person is a true alcholic? Is it when they can't control their life? I see so many of my friends just partying away, and I am a true alcoholic, I have been sober for 8 yrs. My family was in ruins because of the alcoholism, and now I see friends going down that path, how should I treat them?, especially when they get out of hand? There is nothing worse than someone tearing up things and starting fights, and this is what I have seen in my family and friends, it's awful. Please help! ***************************************************************** 07-07-02, 05:04 PM Ewood27 The best definiition of an alcoholic I have heard is 'Someone who cannot understand why he cannot refuse another drink'. It's the compulsion that differentiates a heavy drinker from an alcoholic. I've been there, and could slip back there any time.
Sherasi's post on denial is excellent. You won't be able to do anything to help your friends until they acknowledge that they have a problem. Then you can be there for them, but until then all you can do is do what's necessary to stop them, say, drink-driving, stay clear of any drunken anger, and watch out for yourself that you don't get drawn back into the bottle.
We are all with you on this, but you cannot live other people's lives for them. You have to let them make their own mistakes until they hit their rock bottom.
07-07-02, 07:05 PM cattywampus I have been married to two alcoholics so I know something whereof I speak. My first husband could not or would not go anywhere where drinking was not allowed. He drank every day after work and all weekend long. He was abusive drunk or sober and that's why he's not my husband anymore. My second suffered more from alcoholism than anyone I have ever seen. He fought it every day, he'd go weeks without a drink but sooner or later he'd succumb. He went through treatment 5 times, took antabuse and still drank. He had a lot of health problems and took pills with which you're not supposed to drink and drank anyway. He used to cry because he could not stop. Then one day he spent all day in a bar and coming home, drove his truck off the road into a tree and died instantly. Do anything you can to keep your friends from drinking, just as you would if they were about to jump off a cliff. It's that serious. Congratulations on staying sober as long as you have, and may God bless you. confused
07-08-02, 05:34 AM Elexina
quote:Originally posted by anguilla:...It sounds like your father was just a heavy drinker. And I'm really glad for both of you if that's the case.
If you knew my father, you would not assume that he was a "heavy drinker." Just because he does not go into violent rages, does not mean he is not an alcoholic. However, you are right that there is a difference between the two categories and one is infinitely easier to deal with than the other.
07-11-02, 03:34 PM anguilla
quote:Originally posted by Elexina: Just because he does not go into violent rages, does not mean he is not an alcoholic.
I only know 2 alcoholics, and their behavior under the influence is totally different: one becomes irritable and cries a lot, the other falls asleep.
I guess you really can't tell if someone is an alcoholic by their overt behavior.
P.S. I dearly wish there was a way to help these people.
07-11-02, 09:01 PM clarebear What I find interesting is the list you gave sounds a lot like the stages of divorce too. I remember going through all of those stages myself but with examples related to my relationship. (Lots of Denial) My last phase was acceptance. I wonder if there is a connection. confused Very insightful post! smile
07-11-02, 10:28 PM Sherasi Actually Clarebear, I agree with you. In fact, almost all addictions and situations of abuse can really be characterized by these stages. After all, humans being what they are, will choose practically any method of self delusion as long as possible. As my father (who was a Therapist) said, "A person will choose to stay in the [feces] even with a clear clear path out, because at least the [feces] is familiar... the unknown is terrifying".
07-25-02, 07:49 PM FredPuli The last person to really understand that they are totally dependent on alcohol is, naturally, the alcoholic. Sherazi's article on denial is excellent; it is important for friends to recognize denial strategies for what they are. I am an alcoholic, though not a practising one, and have used them all. The drinker does not recognize them himself, in the end. Friends must understand that 'will-power' has nothing to do with it. Appealing to reason is not going to work; if the person has enough wit to hide his alcohol ingeniously ( the car windscreen- washer reservoir was one of the places I had !) then his brain is working! He knows what happens to lose him his job, his family, his home and his health but he drinks on. The bottle is ruling him with total mind control. I see now that I was terrified of what would happen if I stopped! The mind is that warped. His best hope is in meeting another alcoholic, one who is 'in recovery' as we say. A tiny bit of him doesn't want to feel that ill, that despairing every day; he won't accept censure though or having a dependency but another alcoholic knows that and can deal with it. He will be astonished if he goes to a big AA meeting and just creeps in and hides at the back, as shy as a mouse. (He may find a small meeting intimidating if only in prospect). One of the people there will say to the company something that he recognizes. And he thought he was the ONLY person in the whole wide world who had ever thought or done or suffered what that person talks of.No he is not alone; they have been there; everyone in that room has; everyone in AA, millions have; they don't condemn; they KNOW.And their family/friends were like his, too!
07-26-02, 01:38 AM gizmogram First, allow me to say welcome...I note that you are new to the AnswerPool, and we are very happy that you came!
A few weeks ago I was also impressed with Sherasi's answer, but it didn't surprise me since I knew she was in the medical field.
I think everyone's opinions and ideas are valuable to the original poster as something new might trigger an idea on how to help their friend or loved one.
Any addiction, whether alcohol, drugs, gambling, or whatever, needs to be dealt with carefully by the people close to the person addicted. If that person is in total denial, it can be very, very difficult...many times, unfortunately, it's only when they've hit rock bottom that the truth comes home. Been there, done that, so I know.
My dad was an alcoholic, and he wouldn't have admitted it in a million years. It helped lead to his death 20+ years ago, along with other problems he didn't know about but that were also compounded due to his alcohol consumption. He was 42 at the time.
frown
07-26-02, 10:57 AM Cris5 I know a person who used to drink to excess every time he/she went out (maybe 1-2 times a month) and then, several years into the relationship, started to get verbally abusive to his/her mate, only to apologize profusely for it the next morning. This caused lingering difficulties in his/her relationship, including mate's fear of becoming longterm partner to and having children with an alcoholic, and a great deal of distrust by the mate. The couple has discussed the issue and the person has cut down, however he/she still has a tendency very occasionally to abuse alcohol even after promising not to ruin mate's time at whatever event he/she had been looking forward to. They have a very nice relationship in every other way.
Is this person an alcoholic? Should his/her mate worry?
07-26-02, 11:40 AM Cris5 I decided to post the above question on it's own - thanks.
08-20-02, 11:52 PM billmasters I don't think you can do anything to help an alcoholic. You can drill it into their head all you want but until something major happens to make them realize what the alcohol is doing to themselves and other people, they'll never stop.
I my self am an alcoholic who recently took my last drink a few days ago. August 17th to be exact. To be honest, it's the longest I've gone in two years. I drink about 3 liters of Carlo Rossi wine every night or every other night. The other nights are usually sobering up days and most recently, I would find my self staying up till 3am just to finish the bottle, even though I would have to get up at 6am to go to work.
Nobody has ever been hurt by my drinking. I have a roommate but I pretty much stay out of her way. I stay in my room and play on the internet. Guess which site I spend the most time on wink
I seriously want to quit. It's starting to have serious consequences on my life, it's affecting my health and I'm tired of never having the motivation to do anything anymore.
My parents are aging, and I realize that they aren't going to be around much longer, and I haven't spent much time with my dad in the last eight years since I started drinking, especially in the last three years.
There are a lot of other reasons why I'm quitting but I won't go into them. I'd rather keep the biggest reason to my self right now.
Anyway, I never go into this particular forum, I saw this post and figured, I still have a little bit of anonymity on Answerpool, so I figured I'd share my story. And yes, if you're wondering, I'm sober right now, like I said, four days and counting.
08-21-02, 12:00 AM Sherasi Bill... Congratulations on 4 days of sobriety.. way to go.. just keep counting those hours and days and you will make it. I am here if you need to talk.. I have my own addictions and demons I am fighting, and even if the substance is different.. the feelings are the same. My e-mail is in my information.
Sherasi
08-21-02, 09:47 AM Cris5 Billmasters, Thank you so much for sharing that little bit of your life with us. I remember a while back you posted in the discussion forum that you didn't think anyone knew you existed -- I thought then that that couldn't be further from the truth! I read your posts all the time at AJ and was happy to see a familiar name when I came here. So take it one day at a time and know that if you need a friend, you have lots of buddies at AP.
08-21-02, 10:15 AM Z281980 Good luck Bill !!! Yesterday was 4 days, so I'm hoping today is 5 days for you ! Just think of how proud of yourself you'll be when you can say 5 months !!!!! I supose everyone has some kind of demon, although I'd say drinking would be a VERY hard one to kick, due to the availability... I must say I envy the hell out of you to be able to do it! smile
08-21-02, 03:35 PM Ewood27 Bill, stick in there. Take it one day at a time - one hour at a time, even one minute at a time if you have to.
If you need someone and you'd rather talk to a man, I'm here. I've been there with alcohol. My e-mail's in my profile.
08-21-02, 07:23 PM billmasters Thanks you guys, I'm actually doing pretty good this time. Quitting an addiction actually kills two birds with one stone, it's good for your health, and I figure I'll be saving about $150.00 a month. That alone is a definite incentive smile When I figure that I've pissed away 2400.00 a year, I could have had a down payment on a house by now...
08-23-02, 11:25 AM FredPuli Hello BillMasters! Congrats! Go on. Try AA ;I'm confident that you'll find them some help. If you don't like a particular meeting, well, try another until you find one you do; they vary a lot in style sometimes; but give them a fair trial.It's a lonely life being an alcoholic; friends tend to be lost or forgotten along the way. One thing you are certain to hear there is 'HALT'; it's for Hungry , Angry, Lonely and Tired; being any one of these may very well cause you to take that first drink.Believe me it's true.Some of us have found it out the hard way! Please don't frighten yourself by thinking how hard it must be not to drink again ever, and not believe your promise to your secret self that you won't, even though you know the results of drinking .Me, I wouldn't believe ME and my friends certainly wouldn't ( we know my promises from the past!)Seriously though, I can have a drink any day any time; any alcoholic can; perhaps today after posting this even but, then again, maybe I won't bother. Some other time perhaps. I can handle that; even if it's hours, minutes or micro seconds, it'll do just as well. It's no big deal if I see it like that. I've had, what, just over two years in which I've thought that now and again; but those micro seconds soon mount up on you!Keep on; a microsecond at a time! Oh all right make it an hour, if you must! Fred
08-23-02, 04:51 PM cattywampus Bill, you're breaking my heart. I'm going to pray that you make it. We are here for you.
One thing you can do with an alcoholic who is deep in denial is hold a confrontation. Gather friends and family together and brace him about it. Be prepared to use whatever means necessary to keep the alcoholic in the ring until he hears everyone out. Have everything documented. Stress your agony at what he is doing to himself. Stress love and support for the recovering alcoholic. Ask him to go to treatment. He may need to go 6-7 times. Be prepared.
Another thing you can do is go, yourself, to Al-Anon. Sometimes people in Al-Anon end up just grousing about the alcoholic - speak up, and don't let that happen. Alcoholism is a disease of recidivism - if the alcoholic falls off the wagon, start over.
Good luck to you.
Catty (who hasn't a single alcoholic in her family, PTL!) roll eyes frown confused eek
08-25-02, 01:31 PM kittypal Bill, I'm so glad you decided to fight for yourself, that's a big step in the right direction. Take it one day at a time so as not to stress yourself.
My definition of an alcoholic is: when your drinking starts to effect your daily life, like with bill, staying up until 3 just to finish a bottle. When it bothers your friends and family, when you can't do other things because you're to hung over, when you hide how much you drink or feel embarrassed or defensive about how much you drink.
You can't really tell someone they drink to much, they will only deny it, but deep down they know and will only let up when they are ready.
Just be supportive and be there to talk to, having a good friend like you is going to make it easier.
07-02-02, 12:47 AM Sherasi Alcoholism As you yourself probably are aware, alcoholics (or developing alcoholics, etc) do not recognize their behavior as destructive.. it is too easy to blame others for your problems.. to justify why to keep doing it (drinking, drugs, gambling, etc). There is very little you can do but be supportive and simply and rationally discuss your concerns (but expect to get rebuffed)... and hope they do not come to terms with a death or jail.
Part of this issue deals with "Denial". Here is an article: Denial is the psychological process by which human beings protect themselves from things which threaten them by blocking knowledge of those things from their awareness. It is a defense which distorts reality; it keeps us from feeling the pain and uncomfortable truth about things we do not want to face. If we cannot feel or see the consequences of our actions, then everything is fine and we can continue to live without making any changes.
Denial comes in many forms. It is not just for chemical dependents either. If you are human, you have denial about something--your relationships, your behavior, your health, your family, etc. We all want everything to "be fine." We have denial to keep us from pain.
For persons who are chemically dependent, to keep their denial is to die. In the process, they create pain for those around them, and they have denial about that, too. To recover, they need to see their denial and see how it works so that they can loosen the grip of their addictions. Denial is replaced by the truth and acceptance. To be in denial feels like anger, fear, shame, and isolation. Instead of being cold and cut off from themselves and others, they can be warm and begin to grow again.
Defenses are the specific way we ward off attacks on our denial. Some defenses are conscious and we are aware of them. Others are subconscious. We use both to keep our denial intact. Listed below are common defenses, or forms of denial. We use all forms of denial, although there are some that become our favorites.
SIMPLE DENIAL: Simply denying being chemically dependent. Example: "You're an alcoholic." "No, I'm not."
MINIMIZING: Minimizing is admitting the alcohol-related problem to some degree but in such a way that it appears to be much less serious or significant than it actually is. "I wasn't that bad at the party," "Yes, I drink, but not that much," "I had a couple but I was OK to drive," "I only drink beer, not the hard stuff so it's not that bad" are frequently heard examples of minimizing.
RATIONALIZING: Rationalizing is making excuses or giving reasons to justify your behavior about your drinking or using. Examples: "I can't sleep, so I drink or use pills." "I had a hard day and was upset," "I usually don't drive after 1 drink but a friend needed a ride home - that's the last time I'm the nice guy!" are some of the examples of rationalizing. The behavior is not denied but an inaccurate explanation of its cause is given.
INTELLECTUALIZING or GENERALIZING: Intellectualizing is avoiding emotional, personal awareness of an alcohol-related problem by using theories about your chemical dependency, keeping it general and vague. "Are those breath machines really reliable? Just the other day I was reading about problems with them." "Lots of people have wine with meals, are they alcoholics?" "My family is alcoholic and I have the wrong genes." "My childhood was so bad, it's a way of coping with my underlying feelings." These all are examples of intellectualizing. BLAMING: Blaming (also called projecting) is maintaining that the responsibility for the behavior lies somewhere else, not with us. "You would drink too, if you were married to her!", "The cop was out to get me," or "I lost my job, that's what made me drink" are examples of blaming. The behavior is not denied, but its cause is placed 'out there', not within the person doing it.
DIVERSION: Diversion is changing the subject to avoid a subject that is felt to be threatening. A common example of diversion is responding with a joke, such as "You wouldn't expect me to walk in that condition, would you?" Other examples of diversion: "Yeah, I got drunk last night, so what's for dinner?" "My drinking bothers you? Your weight bothers me!"
BARGAINING: Bargaining is cutting deals or setting conditions for when things will be right to deal with the problem. Examples: "I'll quit drinking if you quit smoking." "I'll quit when there is less stress at work."
PASSIVITY: Passivity is ignoring the situation, or being it's victim. "I've tried to quit before, but it's stronger than me." "There's nothing I can do." "If only I had more will power..." are examples of passivity.
HOSTILITY: Hostility occurs when the person becomes angry or unpleasantly irritable when the subject of his drinking or using is mentioned, scaring or threatening people away from discussing it. A classic example is the situation where the drinker asserts that his wife does not mention that he drinks too much. In fact she used to mention it, but hasn't for years because every time she mentioned it in the past he got angry and they had a fight - so, she doesn't mention it any more. Examples of hostility: "l'm lousy in bed when I'm drunk? Fine, no more sex." "Get off my back!" "You like my paychecks, don't you?" Denial is automatic; it is not usually a matter of deliberate lying or willful deception. Most dependent people do not know what is true or false concerning their drinking or drug use and its consequences. They are blinded to the fact that their view of the situation does not conform to reality. The denial system distorts their perception and impairs their judgment so they become self-deluded and incapable of accurate self-awareness.
Denial is progressive. The denial system becomes increasingly more pervasive and entrenched as the illness of chemical dependency progresses. In the very early stages it is minimal, and with encouragement, such people can usually view their problem fairly realistically. However, by the time a person's illness is sufficiently advanced that the problem appears serious in the eyes of others, an elaborate system of defenses shields him/her from seeing what is really happening.
[This message was edited by Sherasi on 07-25-02 at 08:47 PM.]
07-02-02, 07:41 AM Elexina There are a great many different definitions of "alcoholic" and "alcoholism." According to the dictionary, alcoholism is "the compulsive consumption of alcoholic beverages." There is nothing about being violent or out of control in there. I think that if a person drinks a great deal, he or she is an alcoholic. However, as it is only destructive to the individual, really, it is a more "acceptable" sort of alcoholism. My father is that kind of an alcoholic. He drinks every day. He drinks enough that I would be drunk if I did the same as he does, but he is not drunk. That is an alcoholic. My grandfather on one side and my great grandfather on the other were both the "bad" kind of alcoholic. The violent, abusive, blind rages, hurting-their-children kind of alcoholic. That, too, is alcoholism and that stems from a lack of self-control. I highly doubt that my father will ever become that kind of an alcoholic (if he was going to, he would have by now!) as he has the self-control that those men lacked. I also know, though, that with so many alcoholics in the family, I carry the alcoholism gene and could easily fall down the same hole. Therefore I am VERY careful about my alcoholic intake and VERY careful about the situations in which I take in this alcohol. So I think that you can be an alcoholic and be completely in control. There are stages of alcoholism, just as there are stages to recovery.
As far as your friends go, though, if they are the "acceptable" kind of drunk, you can only try to explain the damage they are doing to their bodies by how they drink. If they are the violent kind, though, there is no way you're going to be able to talk to them when they are drinking. You're going to have to catch them when they're sober and explain to them how they are being stupid and making fools of themselves.
07-02-02, 10:23 AM Bibc14 if anyone out there is concerned, then this website would be a good place for them to go and check it out.
Its got FAQ, and a test to see if you may be an alchoholic, as well as advice for friends of alchoholics
alcoholics-anonymous.org/
hope this helps -Chris
07-02-02, 04:12 PM soaringhorse Wow, alot of great information there. I really am appreciative of the help. And I can only pray that they come to the realization that alcohol has taken its toll. Thanks all smile
07-05-02, 01:04 AM anguilla Elexina says "However, as it is only destructive to the individual..."
That is not true. It can be horribly destructive to a person's close relationships (spouse, boy/girlfriend, kids). And it can lead to problems at work -- and, of course, while driving.
Unfortunately, as the late Ann Landers used to say: "Conquering alcoholism is the number one do-it-yourself project." Only the alcoholic can help him/herself, and only if he/she wants to.
07-05-02, 02:52 PM Elexina
quote:Originally posted by anguilla: That is not true. It can be horribly destructive to a person's close relationships (spouse, boy/girlfriend, kids). And it can lead to problems at work -- and, of course, while driving.
You and I are not talking about the same type of alcoholic. The alcoholic you describe, who allows alcohol to interfere with his work or his relationships, is the "unacceptable" kind. Of course, an "acceptable" alcoholic would never drink and drive. For instance, I had a boyfriend who drank all of the time. But he was never late to work and he went to class and it didn't affect our relationship. He just drank a hell of a lot more than I did. And if he was out and he was drunk, he did NOT drive. I'm not saying that this is a good way to live. I'm just saying there are different kinds of alcoholics who must be approached in different ways.
07-06-02, 01:19 AM anguilla Elexina:
I honestly believe there is a difference in a person who drinks a lot every day and a person who HAS TO drink.
Many heavy drinkers can choose to avoid drinking whenever they need to. Alcoholics find it very difficult, if not impossible, to avoid drinking -- even when they know it will upset/disappoint/etc. others they care about.
It sounds like your father was just a heavy drinker. And I'm really glad for both of you if that's the case.
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