I don't want to name them, but there are ethnic groups in which alcohol wrecks (possibly) the majority of families. This has been going on for generations.
I think two harmful types of behavior associated with alcoholic and co-dependent behavior have become so entrenched in the culture that they spread to all aspects of daily life.
(1) The blaming of others for one's bad choices (2) The co-dependent's assuming of responsibility for the problems.
Thus oppression sometimes hundreds of years in the past is an excuse for the group's overall economic problems.
Members of the group, or outsiders, single themselves out as motivators or spokespersons for the group. These volunteers are frequently attacked by the group for behavior like:
(1) lacking compassion for the group when they expect other than self-indulgent behavior from its members; (2) taking on the persona, values and standards of those outside the group, when they expect individual effort and commitment from group members; (3) betraying the group.
Yet meantime the group can be extremely self-pitying, trumpeting its neediness as its excuse: a neediness defined by and measured against these same outside standards.
Has anyone else noticed this behavior? ******************************************************** 10-15-02, 06:26 PM honilov i don't see how this could be true. i believe there are alcoholics in every ethnic group. i sure would like to know which ethnic group that you are refering to. give me a hint.
10-17-02, 03:09 AM babthrower Well, my own (ancestral) for one: the Celts.
10-17-02, 12:58 PM Sherasi I don't know about all the criteria you listed, but I do know that the American Indian cannot metabolize alcohol correctly and therefore it affects them much worse with much less imbibing.
10-17-02, 01:15 PM babthrower In the case of the Americans they have had less time to adapt by natural selection. Europeans, Asians and North Africans have had perhaps eight thousand years. Americans have had about four hundred years' exposure.
But it's not physical adaptation I'm talking about. It's the excuse-making phychological adaptation, which may generalize to all maladaptive behavior, that I'm wondering about.
10-17-02, 09:48 PM Nadca2 I am sorry but I really take this question as being offensive. I am in one of the ethnic groups I believe you would be speaking of and in my own opinion each culture has their OWN.. problems with alcohol. It is just that in todays society that these groups are looked down upon. Not receiving equal treatment, I am not just saying this I have lived it. So please do not blame drug or alcohol abuse on a certain minority group. It is an individuals problem regardless the color of their skin..
10-18-02, 01:04 AM Sherasi Actually Babs, I do also somewhat take exception to this for several reasons.
There ARE no specific substances that cause the death or corruption of a culture. Unless you consider Gold, one of the substances that OTHER cultures kill indigenous cultures FOR.
In almost every society there has been destructive and disruptive habits and substances that alter individuals within that society.
Unfortunately, substance abuse is rarely a cause but a SYMPTOM of problems that exist.... problems which could be cultural, governmental, or a combination of many issues that mesh together in a miasma of poverty and hopelessness.
There is no question that problems do exist, however it exists at all levels of our society and no one strata or group can be targeted as an "example".
The only way change will occur, is when people realize that Family and Responsibility are two of the lost values that are part of our over-all cutural degredation.
10-18-02, 03:30 AM babthrower Nadca, I am not blaming substance abuse on any group whatsoever. What I was wondering is whether the excuses substance abusers make to justify their substance use can be carried over into other areas of life.
Let's suppose I grow up in a substance-abusing family. I hear my mother blame hers on severe migraines. I hear my father blame his on job stress. My older brother uses too, and he blames it on the quarreling he hears in the household, in which each parent blames the other for the family problems.
From this I learn that if one can name a cause of stress one can be excused for substance abuse.
But might one also learn that one can blame, say, bad government or poor economic situations for one's failure to try to find a job? Or an untidy house is an excuse for infidelity? "The house is such a mess I have to go to the local bar to find order. There I met a friendly person.... But it's not my fault, if the house had been tidier I would have stayed at home." But maybe the clutter is due to lack of storage facilities, which in turn is due to lack of money, which in turn is due to the complainer spending too much on substances...
The cultural factor is just that if one hears people excuse themselves for using whatever substance, by claiming psychological pain or other stress, then one might generalize and decide that as long as there is an excuse, irresponsible behavior is O.K.
That is my question. Do you think this is possible? And might a culture which has a history of substance abuse problems (such as my culture has) be more inclined than others to be irresponsible?
I know that fifty million Celts will jump all over me, citing famous overachievers from my culture such as James Watt or John Knox, who were not substance abusers, as far as anyone knows. But I also know that if they do so, they are ignoring something else that they know full well.
10-18-02, 09:33 PM Nadca2 Alright maybe I got a little too excited here. I got over it, but I so believe you do have a point in saying that people blame their environment ie)work and so on. I think it is a poor excuse if you hate your job find a new one. Bad marriage, end it. Sorry for getting defensive.
10-19-02, 02:40 AM babthrower Not at all, I'm defensive too when I hear jokes about Celtic drunkenness. I don't think it's funny.
11-10-02, 02:40 PM cattywampus Psssst! Listen up! I believe the group she's referring to is THE GREAT HUMAN RACE (and even some animals - wasps and bees get drunk off fermented berries - fun to watch them stagger around trying to take off).
I would not make light of your concern, Bab, but you can't possibly know enough Celts to provide a useable sample indicating anything.
Catty (urp!) razz
11-11-02, 12:12 PM babthrower Cattywampus, I was not referring to any special ethnic group (only when I was challenged did I name Celts).
The point of the question was:
(1) Since excuse-making is a typical behavior in substance-abusing families
(2) Since coping patterns (or non-coping patterns) are learned, and since excuse-making and self-pity, and self-justification are learned
(3) Since such patterns are carried over into adult life, and generalized to cover all sorts of failures, not just substance abuse
Could it not be that whole cultures are characterized by this behavior as a result of the prevalence of substance abuse?
