I have waffled on this one for years, as many of you know, but more and more lately, I have have been thinking that I want to study Buddhism more fully and seriously begin to follow it. I have been meditating for the past couple of months - not perfectly nor as regularly as I'd like, but enough to get the sense that it is for me.
I'm still not sure which type of Buddhism I would like to study. I used to be attracted to Zen, but lately I've been thinking that Tibetan Buddhism is very interesting. I will have to study more before I can say.
I just thought I'd let you all know in case you wonder why I'm suddenly posting frequently about reincarnation and such. *************************************************** 08-13-05 10:10 PM Jusork
So it's something in the meditating that attracted you to Buddhism? What's in the meditating that'd affect you spiritually?
Glad you finally found your spot. Quite a relief?
08-15-05, 10:20 AM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by jusork: So it's something in the meditating that attracted you to Buddhism? What's in the meditating that'd affect you spiritually?
Glad you finally found your spot. Quite a relief?
The basic tenets of Buddhism (the four noble truths and the 8-fold path) make sense to me. Meditation, an aspect of the 8-fold path, has given me strength and patience where I didn't have it before. Now, of course, one doesn't have to be a Buddhist to meditate, but Buddhist meditations in particular have been helpful and educational for me, so that just adds to my sense that the Buddhists are on to something.
As for having found my place, well, I'm not so sure. As you can see, I still haven't said "I'm a Buddhist." I think I will be at some point, but so far, I'm still learning.
08-15-05, 11:49 AM aminator2002 I don't think you have to say "I'm an ____ " anything for it to matter more. What you are doing is probably more rewarding and fulfilling than just comfortably accepting a religion. I find Buddhism very interesting and really believe in a lot of the teachings, but I can't say I have any expectation that I would ever say "Now I'm a Buddhist". For some people there is a nice quietness about religion... I don't expect to ever feel that way.
08-22-05, 05:43 AM tsaeb Sarai: Whether or not you declare yourself to be a Buddhist, are you already no longer an agnostic but "some sort of believer"? On whom or what do you meditate, and why? I do not ask to knock you but out of curiosity, which I suspect others here have.
08-22-05, 09:40 AM Elexina Buddhism is a great path. I've done some reading and a lot of the tenets of Buddhism make a lot of sense to me. If I had more time to meditate, I'd probably be a Buddhist, too! Wink Congratulations on finding a path to follow that makes sense to you. That can be so difficult.
08-22-05, 02:09 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb: Sarai: Whether or not you declare yourself to be a Buddhist, are you already no longer an agnostic but "some sort of believer"? On whom or what do you meditate, and why? I do not ask to knock you but out of curiosity, which I suspect others here have.
Thanks for your question, Tsaeb! Before I answer, let me make it clear that I am still learning about Buddhism, so please take what I say with a grain of salt. Wink
I am currently learning two kinds of meditation. The first one is called "metta meditation." "Metta" means "loving kindness." Basically, the meditation begins by focusing on oneself and our own desire to be happy. You imagine yourself feeling great joy and peace, and say to yourself, "May I be happy, may I be free from anger and ill-will, may I be at peace, may I be filled with metta." Then, you focus on someone you love very much - a parent, spouse, etc. You say the same thing for them "May you be happy, may you be free from anger and ill-will, etc". You really try to imagine their joy and peace and feel it with them. Then you do the same with someone you feel neutral toward - maybe your mailman or someone like that. Then, you do the same with someone you feel negatively toward. And finally, you direct it to the north, south, east and west and out across the universe, to all living beings.
The other kind is the most basic and common Buddhist meditation and basically involves simply sitting and trying to still and quiet the mind. The goal is to get your "monkey mind" that jumps everywhere like a bad child under control. This one is very hard for me. Wink You focus on your breath, and whenever your thoughts start to wander, you watch them pass but bring your mind back to your breath. It is terrifically difficult, in my humble opinion.
Later I will try to learn other meditations.
The meditations do not focus on a being of any kind. I understand there are some meditations in which you focus on a god, but be aware that Buddhists do not necessarily believe in a creator god. Instead, gods are simply beings who, like you and I, are trapped in the cycle of rebirth and have the illusion of a "self." The difference is that Gods accumulated less negative kamma or karma and were therefore born into this magnificiently comfortable and powerful existence. Regardless, however, even Gods are in need of enlightenment (and not all Buddhists believe in gods). And, in fact, I've read that some Buddhists say it is better to be a human than a god, because the gods are so comfortable that they lack the motivation to become enlightened. Humans, by nature of our suffering, have, unlike animals, the lucky position of having both the intelligence to follow the four noble truths (the way out of suffering and toward enlightenment) and, unlike gods, the desire to do so.
As for me, I'm still not sure if I believe in god or gods. But one doesn't have to have a fixed opinion about that to be a Buddhist.
I hope that answers your question!
08-22-05, 02:11 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by Elexina: Buddhism is a great path. I've done some reading and a lot of the tenets of Buddhism make a lot of sense to me. If I had more time to meditate, I'd probably be a Buddhist, too! Wink Congratulations on finding a path to follow that makes sense to you. That can be so difficult.
Thanks. I hope I continue with this. Meditation takes practice and self-control, that's for sure. I worry that I'll fall out of practice, like I do with exercise... but right now, like all neophytes, I'm quite gung ho. Smile
08-22-05, 02:30 PM Elexina
quote: As for me, I'm still not sure if I believe in god or gods. But one doesn't have to have a fixed opinion about that to be a Buddhist.
Another item that has always attracted me to Buddhism. Smile
quote: like all neophytes, I'm quite gung ho.
May your enthusiasm never waiver, but if it does, may you have found the answers you seek before moving onto another path. Blessed be.
08-22-05, 05:38 PM clarebear I believe there is much suffering in the world and I really like the 8 Fold path. Did you ever read the book Siddhartha by Herman Hesse?
08-22-05, 07:02 PM Sarai Clare, I did read _Siddhartha_ a couple of years ago. It was a pretty good book! The one that has really got me thinking about becoming Buddhist is called The Meaning of Life by the Dalai Lama. I can't claim that I grasped it all, but what I understood made so much sense to me.
The website you posted is interesting. I don't believe the mythology surrounding the Buddha (that he was born out of his mother's side or that spirits lifted the horses that took him out of his father's palace off the ground so that no one would hear him leave or that sort of thing), but I don't doubt the core story of the prince who left the palace, willing gave up his riches and comfort in search of truth and finally, while meditating, came upon the 4 noble truths and the 8-fold path. I don't understand the mythology surrounding the Buddha or why it is taught, since I kind of doubt many wise teachers believe it (at least literally), and would like to ask a monk someday what his take on it is. Someday... right now I don't exactly live in monksville. Razz
08-23-05, 05:54 AM clarebear Don't be fooled by false claims Sarai. There is only one true meaning of life. IT IS HERE.
08-23-05, 06:53 AM Elexina "May we have your liver?"
08-23-05, 03:57 PM VelvetVoice "But I'm not finished with it yet!"
08-23-05, 04:40 PM juanruiz Anyone for a nice thin chocolate mint?
08-24-05, 03:09 PM VelvetVoice No. I can't eat another bite.
(I need to rent these movies again. It's been over twenty years since I've seen any Python movies or shows, but the themes and lines keep coming up. Bader-Meinhoff strikes again.)
08-24-05, 04:18 PM Karrow
08-24-05, 09:51 PM juanruiz Hey Karrow, ever hear of stream of consciousness?
08-24-05, 10:17 PM clarebear This Buddhist walks up to the hot dog vendor and says "Make me one with everything." Smile
I think the 8 fold path is certainly a great way to live your life.
quote: The Eightfold Path
1. Right view is the true understanding of the four noble truths.
2. Right aspiration is the true desire to free oneself from attachment, ignorance, and hatefulness.
These two are referred to as prajña, or wisdom.
3. Right speech involves abstaining from lying, gossiping, or hurtful talk.
4. Right action involves abstaining from hurtful behaviors, such as killing, stealing, and careless sex.
5. Right livelihood means making your living in such a way as to avoid dishonesty and hurting others, including animals.
These three are referred to as shila, or morality.
6. Right effort is a matter of exerting oneself in regards to the content of one's mind: Bad qualities should be abandoned and prevented from arising again; Good qualities should be enacted and nurtured.
7. Right mindfulness is the focusing of one's attention on one's body, feelings, thoughts, and consciousness in such a way as to overcome craving, hatred, and ignorance.
8. Right concentration is meditating in such a way as to progressively realize a true understanding of imperfection, impermanence, and non-separateness.
One thing I have found is that Buddhism doesn't put down other religions or consider them to be wrong. I can't think of any wars fought in the name of Buddhism. Buddhism teaches that the solutions to our problems are within ourselves. Basically Buddhism teaches to be a good person and do the right things in life. It sounds like a wonderful path to choose. It is a combination of wisdom/karma/inner peacefulness to truly find happiness.
...So the hot dog vendor hands the Buddhist the hot dog and says "That will be four dollars." The Buddhist hands him a twenty dollar bill, and the hot dog vendor puts in in his pocket. The Buddhist asks, "Hey, where's my change?" The hot dog vendor smiles and says "Change comes from within." Big Grin
08-25-05, 09:45 AM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by clarebear:
One thing I have found is that Buddhism doesn't put down other religions or consider them to be wrong.
I have heard Buddhists put down other religious beliefs, particularly Western Buddhists who have a chip on their shoulder about monotheistic religions, but I agree that doesn't seem to fit the spirit of Buddhism.
quote: I can't think of any wars fought in the name of Buddhism.
This is one of my favorite things about Buddhism. The Tibetan Buddhists, for example, really set an example demonstrating that there are ways to fight without violence, in my opinion. The Tibetans may never win, but then I think it highly unlikely that they would win a violent war with a power like China, either. I think they are far more likely to succeed with non-violent resistance and I hope they do. But even if they never win their freedom, I find their dedication to non-violence inspiring. If every group of oppressed, militarily weak people would choose non-violence (rather than, say, terrorism), I think this world would change in dramatic and wonderful ways.
(That goes for free and military strong powers, as well, come to think of it!)
quote: Buddhism teaches that the solutions to our problems are within ourselves.
That's true. Except that there is no self within which to hold the solution. Wink
quote: This Buddhist walks up to the hot dog vendor and says "Make me one with everything."
Big Grin Big Grin
08-25-05 11:05 AM Sarai Since Clare posted the 8-fold path, I thought I'd post the other basic teaching of Buddhism - the Four Noble Truths, for anyone who is curious.
1)The truth of suffering 2) The truth of the origin of Suffering 3) the truth of the cessation of suffering 4) the truth of the path that leads to the cessation of suffering
The first sermon that the Buddha preached after his enlightenment was about the four noble truths. The first noble truth is that life is frustrating and painful. In fact, if we are honest with ourselves, there are times when it is downright miserable. Things may be fine with us, at the moment, but, if we look around, we see other people in the most appalling condition, children starving, terrorism, hatred, wars, intolerance, people being tortured and we get a sort of queasy feeling whenever we think about the world situation in even the most casual way. We, ourselves, will some day grow old, get sick and eventually die. No matter how we try to avoid it, some day we are going to die. Even though we try to avoid thinking about it, there are constant reminders that it is true.
The second noble truth is that suffering has a cause. We suffer because we are constantly struggling to survive. We are constantly trying to prove our existence. We may be extremely humble and self-deprecating, but even that is an attempt to define ourselves. We are defined by our humility. The harder we struggle to establish ourselves and our relationships, the more painful our experience becomes.
The third noble truth is that the cause of suffering can be ended. Our struggle to survive, our effort to prove ourselves and solidify our relationships is unnecessary. We, and the world, can get along quite comfortably without all our unnecessary posturing. We could just be a simple, direct and straight-forward person. We could form a simple relationship with our world, our coffee, spouse and friend. We do this by abandoning our expectations about how we think things should be.
This is the fourth noble truth: the way, or path to end the cause of suffering. The central theme of this way is meditation. Meditation, here, means the practice of mindfulness/awareness, shamata/vipashyana in Sanskrit. We practice being mindful of all the things that we use to torture ourselves with. We become mindful by abandoning our expectations about the way we think things should be and, out of our mindfulness, we begin to develop awareness about the way things really are. We begin to develop the insight that things are really quite simple, that we can handle ourselves, and our relationships, very well as soon as we stop being so manipulative and complex.
09-02-05, 09:21 AM Elexina Sarai, I have a quote-a-day calendar by the Dalai Lama and yesterday's quote was (and I kid you not): "The best thing for individuals approaching Buddhism is for them to adapt what is most suitable and beneficial to have, and to leave the rest."
Blessed be.
09-03-05, 09:08 PM jusork Ooo, I remember learning about the eight-fold path and the four nobel truths in some high school class. Almost forgot about that.
10-31-05, 11:01 PM Julia0802 Not sure if anyone is reading this one anymore. Here it is Halloween night and the spooks have gone to bed. Here I sit reading about Buddhism on AnswerPool and thinking how all those mental gymnastics would drive me crazy. In my form (Western, I guess) I've chanted daily for 21 years now, Nam myoho renge kyo - for everything from having a healthy baby to getting rid of negative habits to improving my marriage and for my boss to find her best path (which luckily happened and she is no longer my boss). I study the writings of Nichiren and read many of the writings of the still living, great mentor, Daisaku Ikeda who brought this Buddhism to USA in 1960. Our group is still rather small in this country and here in Denver, about 2000 people, but the chanting is just so fabulous; what a spiritual high I get each day. Just a fantastic way to live, but definitely not for everyone. I respect each person's right to choose their own path. Well, this spook has got to get some better rest tonight. Oh, almost forgot - am I allowed to say, please visit sgi-usa.org for a practical and fulfilling type of Buddhism called Nichiren Buddhism. Some famous practitioners are Tina Turner, Herbie Hancock and Patrick Duffy just to name a few. Not that that matters; but some people are into the rich and famous. Cool
10-31-05, 11:48 PM newnickname I was talking to one of my students today about Buddhism. She's from Japan, and she's planning to do a presentation to her class on Buddhism. She was worried that the presentation wasn't long enough, so I joked that she could have the class meditate for a bit - then it could be as long as she liked. She said, "Yes - I'd need to bring a big stick, though."
Apparently, learning to meditate as a child in Japan involves a monk clonking you with a stick if you move, chat or giggle.
The Dalai Lama is supposed to have said that people should seek enlightenment in the tradition they know best. I wonder if Westerners have an idealised or romantic view od Buddhism that just wouldn't be the same if they'd grown up with it as the ubiquitous background religion. (In the same way, perhaps, Chinese people might turn to Christianity as an attractive and idealised alternative - never having had to sit through Sunday School and never having seen a televangelist.)
I don't mean to be rude - it just struck me that my student's view and experience of Buddhisml, in this instance, was so different from the notion we have in the West. A positive point she mentioned was that Buddhism can accept all ther faiths (for example Shinto in Japan) whereas practising Jews and Christians that she knows see other faiths as being seriously in error.
11-01-05, 07:47 AM Elexina The Dalai Lama quote of the day for November 1st (no kidding): "Remember, you are a Westerner. If you want to practice an Eastern philosophy such as Tibetan Buddhism, you should take the essence and try to adapt ort to your cultural background and conditions."
11-01-05, 10:26 AM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by newnickname: Apparently, learning to meditate as a child in Japan involves a monk clonking you with a stick if you move, chat or giggle.
This made me laugh! Lately I've been super distractable during my meditation- I'm having a hard time focusing. Maybe I need someone to clonk me on the head, too! Big Grin
quote: I wonder if Westerners have an idealised or romantic view od Buddhism that just wouldn't be the same if they'd grown up with it as the ubiquitous background religion.
I definitely think we do. I've said that before. And I'm sure I do, as well. But I should add that for me personally, I think there is a certain ideal that I believe exists in all religions- and if I think of religions purely as religions, I think I idealize all of them. The problem with religion is the practitioners, not the religions themselves. Or maybe the problem is when people start to confuse the parable for the message or the finger for the moon.
Certainly, if what I'm doing could be called Buddhism, it isn't the same thing that people in the East do - I have no teacher, no Sangha, no community, no traditions, no holidays, no ceremonies, not even a particularly large amount of faith that I'm actually following something true - nothing but myself and a couple of books that inspire me. But so far it's working for me, so I think I'll try to stick with it.
11-01-05, 10:43 AM DorianGreyed "Apparently, learning to meditate as a child in Japan involves a monk clonking you with a stick if you move, chat or giggle."
It still amazes me how similar religions can be. Learning to pray as a child in the Roman Catholic church involves a nun whacking your knuckles with the edge of a yardstick if you move, chat or giggle. His wonders never cease.
11-03-05, 04:32 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by DorianGreyed: "Apparently, learning to meditate as a child in Japan involves a monk clonking you with a stick if you move, chat or giggle."
It still amazes me how similar religions can be. Learning to pray as a child in the Roman Catholic church involves a nun whacking your knuckles with the edge of a yardstick if you move, chat or giggle. His wonders never cease.
One will find a lot of maulvi's beating or pulling the ear of kids for not reciting quran properly. All they need to ask is 'would Muhammed or Christ (peace be upon them) do what they are doing' that is beat up kids.
12-30-05, 11:11 AM revpo try parami.org to become a self proclaimed buddhist. Buddha wasnt a god, just a man, so therefore he wasnt a god. It boild to the fact buddhism is a athesit belief no god involved. His teachings are good and meditation to clear the mind was good, and to the follow the 8 fold path makes sense.
So tell us why you choose tibet buddhism?
The way I understand just proclaim your a buddhist and you are one.
revpo
01-04-06, 10:38 AM Sarai Revpo-
Thanks for the link. I'll be sure to check it out.
Yes, I agree that to become a Buddhist you just have to proclaim it. Well, actually, I don't even think you have to proclaim it. I don't think Buddhists care much what you call yourself one way or another. Basically I think that a Buddhist is simply a person who takes refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. I'm trying to do that. Smile
For me personally, I can't consider myself fully Buddhist because I don't have a teacher or any ties to a sangha, which, as you can imagine, makes it hard to take refuge in the Sangha! But that is personal- I'm sure that there are many people who are comfortable calling themselves Buddhist without such things, which is fine.
I haven't chosen Tibetan Buddhism yet. I like it, but I'm also attracted to Zen and Theraveda Buddhism. That's a pretty broad spectrum, which just goes to show that I'm still a beginner and haven't gotten to a point where the paths start to separate significantly. I'm probably attracted to them because most of the Buddhist literature published in the west is from those traditions, so that's what I have the easiest access to.
For now, I figure I'll just try to understand the basics and take what I can from different traditions. Once I'm living in a place where it is easier for me to find a teacher, I'll decide which tradition to follow.
Are you a Buddhist?
01-04-06, 07:40 PM Insaf Sarai,
I have very limited knowledge of Budhism. I had always thought of it as an ethical system.
I understood from a website that the main teachings of Buddhism are summarised in the Four Noble Truths:
(a) There is suffering and misery in life.
(b) The cause of suffering and misery is desire.
(c) Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.
(d) Desire can be removed by following the 8 Fold Path.
However, this Philosophy of Buddhism is self-contradictory or self-defeating because the third truth says ‘suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire’ and the fourth truth says that 'desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path'.
Now, for any person to follow Buddhism he should first have the desire to follow the Four Noble Truths and the Eight Fold Path. The Third great Noble Truth says that desire should be removed. Once you remove desire, how can we follow the Fourth Noble truth i.e. follow the Eight Fold Path unless we have a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. In short desire can only be removed by having a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. If you do not follow the Eight Fold Path, desire cannot be removed. It is self contradicting as well as self-defeating to say that desire will only be removed by continuously having a desire.
01-04-06, 09:50 PM revpo INTERESTING, actually the four noble truths and the eight fold path is basic sense after you think about it using logic and reason, its a way to correct your crooked path, and come a better person, and have universal compassion for others. They say its a religion that has no fear, or conflict pressed on ones self as many revealed religions have. I am studying BUDDHISM, just a novice entering the realm. I belong to the AMERICAN BUDDHIST CHURCH, and the american buddhist ministries. out of NEW YORK CITY, you can find it on the web, if not Ill check back with the web address. I have the american buddhist church handbook its full of information around 286 pages on pdf. format, takes a long time to download. No I dont have a local teacher but the spiritual head of the church only for questions etc.
01-05-06, 11:36 AM Sarai Revpo, thanks. I'd never heard of that organization.
Insaf, thanks for your interesting thoughts. I agree that it sounds contradictory - how can one say that we should rid ourselves of desire (or, to rid ourselves of attachment, as it is also commonly put, and more to my personal liking) if in order to do so, we must desire that? Buddhism is full of such seeming contradictions, it seems to me.
I agree that when we begin the 8-fold path, we are attached to the idea of becoming enlightened (or, if you prefer, we desire not to suffer), but that is unavoidable. If we were not attached to something or other, we would already be enlightened and therefore would have no need for the 8-fold path!
Desire or attachment will lead some of us to the 8-fold path, but the 8-fold path will teach us how to lose that attachment.
Think of it like this: if you are sick, you need medicine. If you were not sick, you would not take the medicine. The medicine is taken to rid yourself of the sickness, but you must be sick to take the medicine. In short, the illness can only be removed if you have the illness.
Another way of putting it could be to imagine that you find yourself alone in the middle of the ocean. You may realize that it is preferable to be out of the water. But of course, the only way to get out of it is to remain in it, swimming in the right direction. In short, the way to move out of the water is to move in the water. It sounds contradictory, but it really isn't.
Smile
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sarai, 01-05-06 12:15 PM
01-05-06, 12:28 PM frankvan Although I call myself atheist or agnostic, I feel that I could just as readily consider myself a Buddhist. Buddhism is the only major religion that I find palatable and with which I can't find any basis for disagreement.
As to this contradiction that you mention; I can't see that there is anything particularly inconsistent with the notion that we can get rid of our misery by getting rid of desire, and getting rid of desire by following a better path. If I am unhappy because I can't get rich, I can become happy by losing the desire to become rich. As opposed to the false promise of becoming rich and finding that I am still unhappy. But having the desire (or wisdom) to follow the path to elimination of desire doesn't mean losing the desire to follow the path, in my opinion. Why can it not mean that the many desires we are prone to, fall away one by one, over time, until we have finally only the one single remaining desire and are now content. We now have no further needs, we are complete.Why not? Confused
01-05-06, 12:36 PM Sarai Frank, I like the way you put this. You may be right about stripping away desires until there is only one left. However, the way I understand it, there is not even one left. I think that one who is enlightened is not attached to even one thing anymore, not even non-attachment, nor does one have a need for the 8-fold path or any of the Buddha's teachings:
"A man on his journey comes across a vast river. No boat goes to the other side, nor is there a bridge for crossing over. He then gathers grass, wood, branches and leaves to make a raft, and crosses the river with the help of the raft. After crossing safely, he leaves the raft at the shore and goes on his way.
In just the same way, I have taught the Dhamma similar to a raft; it is for crossing (Samsara-the Round of Rebirth) over, not for getting hold of. He who understands this should give up even good things (Dhamma); how much more should he give up evil things (Adhamma)." -The Buddha
01-05-06, 09:11 PM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by Sarai: imagine that you find yourself alone in the middle of the ocean. You may realize that it is preferable to be out of the water. But of course, the only way to get out of it is to remain in it, swimming in the right direction. In short, the way to move out of the water is to move in the water. It sounds contradictory, but it really isn't.
Smile
Thanks Sarai. I understand your point. So basically we just need to add one desire to our existing desires and with time we will lose all our desires by following that particular desire. And eventually even that one desire of following the 8 fold path shall also be removed. And there will be no longer suffering or misery. The way you have explained it, does make sense as in the end you are free of all desires. It is like having one final war to have eternal peace and prosperity.
However, I have a few questions:
1)How do you describe that stage when you have no desires? Are you happy or emotionally insensitive?
2)In real human life nothing is constant and nothing keeps its balance forever. So if we want to mantain a particular style of living, we do need to apply some efforts for its mantainence. In other words we continously do need to have a desire to follow the 8 fold path. Or perhaps I am having difficulty conceiving that final stage. Are there any real people in this era who have acheived this stage?
3) Does Budhism effects your motivation etc. I think that there must be a lot of Budhist successful in their careers. Obviously the employer do have expectations and if you fail to meet them as you have no desire to do such, it may effect your survival.
4) What is the purpose of life in the eye of Budhist?
I may search websites for my answers, but it would be much more convincing to hear from someone who is becoming Budhist and probably have gone through the same stages.
01-06-06, 09:20 AM frankvan
quote: 1)How do you describe that stage when you have no desires? Are you happy or emotionally insensitive?
Although you addressed this question to Sarai, I can't wait to hear her answer without feeling an urge to try and apply my own answer.
As I have said many times, I am not a Buddhist, unless being atheist or non-theistic gives me the right to claim membership. But I don't think that getting rid of desire means having NO desires. I think it means having no un-fulfilled desires. I do not yearn for the unattainable, the unreachable stars, because my goals are realistic and attainable. I do not expect to attain by prayer what I haven't the skill or preparation to achieve. In other words, don't confuse desire with ambition or willingness to expend effort. I don't think Nirvana means you are now free to sit on your dead butt and have everything brought to you. Sarai may correct me on that but I think Buddha meant you are free of ego, of the negative aspects of passion, lust, jealousy,anger, etc. You have substituted selfishness for altruism. You don't feel less - I think you feel more keenly, with more satisfaction. IMHO.
01-06-06, 10:31 AM babthrower We could approach the problem from a slightly different angle. We could ask, "Why do we need religion?"
The least sensible reason is to negate the fear of death. But that to me is silly, like a child whistling in the dark. Still, the fear is there, grounded in our animal instinct. The anxiety associated with this fear can be eased by grasping at the magical answer, namely, an authority figure who asserts with great confidence and drama that death can be overcome.
But Buddhism does not promise eternal life. What then is its utility?
I think it offers relief from the psychological pain caused by being a human animal: awareness of suffering and death and man's inhumanity to man. By directing one's own consciousness away from those things we cannot change one can, over time I'm sure, reduce one's own useless distress. In a way, it's self-medication: but a lot less personally and socially damaging than the usual other methods of self-medication for anxiety.
So that ultimately 'desirelessness' can include making no effort to deal with human suffering (other than, of course, promoting desirelessness which may make suffering more bearable.)
That's not a bad thing. I find myself torn between the humanist values I, as a social being, hold, and the knowledge that even if our best intentions are fulfilled, in time, and earth were to become a place of peace and plenty for a hypothetical (and much reduced) human population, still, the sun will burn out, in time, and ..... well, you get my drift. Wink
So I can't become desireless, even though my desire is absurd: that humanity persist, while continually becoming more humane. But I dare not call desirelessness selfish, which on the face of it, it is. But at a deeper level, desirelessness may be the only realistic road to a more humane humanity.
01-06-06 11:39 AM Sarai Thank you so much for your questions, Insaf. I can't tell you how helpful it is to me, as a person trying to learn about a religion, to answer them. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but it really is a sincere thank you!
Keep in mind that I'm not an expert, but I'll answer them to the best of my knowledge at this stage of understanding.
quote:
Originally posted by Insaf: However, I have a few questions:
1)How do you describe that stage when you have no desires? Are you happy or emotionally insensitive?
I understand that this stage is something that cannot be explained to one who has not reached it, so since I haven't reached it, I certainly can't claim to know. Nevertheless, I understand that it is pure compassion. But it is detached compassion. The best way I can understand it is sort of like imagining a very elderly person watching his family running about the house, cooking, cleaning, fighting, playing etc. The elderly person will give advice if asked, advice that the young may heed or may ignore, and the elderly will feel compassion for his children and grandchildren and greatgrandchildren as he watches them make mistakes out of youth and ignorance and human folly. He understands what it is to suffer - he has been though it. But he is too old to be terribly shocked or hurt or pleased by any of it. He just watches.
Someone once told me that enlightenment can also be thought of as being completely in the moment, sort of like the way you are at the moment you move to avoid an accident. In that moment, you aren't worried about tomorrow or yesterday, or even feeling fear or sadness - you are just right there, doing what must be done not because you have to or because someone told you to or because you want something particularly - but just because it is what is to be done. You react without having to think about how to react, without self-consciousness, fully aware of your surroundings, fully alert, fully alive. Fully awake.
An enlightened person no longer is caught in the wheel of reincarnation, so when he dies, he is not born again, unless he chooses to (some believe, for example, that the Dalai Lama has chosen to reincarnate for several hundred years in order to help others reach enlightenment).
At that point, it is sometimes compared to a flame going out, but I have been told not to mistake that for oblivion. It isn't oblivion as we know it, but perhaps oblivion of the illusion of ego or self. Beyond that, I have no idea what it is.
quote:
2)In real human life nothing is constant and nothing keeps its balance forever.
This is a very Buddhist idea!
quote:
So if we want to mantain a particular style of living, we do need to apply some efforts for its mantainence. In other words we continously do need to have a desire to follow the 8 fold path. Or perhaps I am having difficulty conceiving that final stage. Are there any real people in this era who have acheived this stage?
The Buddha said that being a living enlightened one is like a flame that has gone out, but the coals are still hot. When the enlightened one's body dies, the embers go out as well. Thus there is no longer any tie to Samsara (the cycle of birth and rebirth). The person is no longer attached.
As I said, most people who reach enlightenment are not born again. Once they reach that point, there is no longer a need to keep trying. There is no more illusion of a self that needs to try.
The Dalai Lama is the only person I know of who is considered enlightened. But generally, the enlightened do not talk about being enlightened, so I don't think we would know. It is said that a Buddha is a person who reached enlightenment AND has the ability to share the experience with others, to give others understanding of the way to enlightenment. This is very rare and there have been very few Buddhas in our world. Most enlightened people are called Arahat. They are enlightened like the Buddha but cannot convey the experience to others.
quote:
3) Does Budhism effects your motivation etc. I think that there must be a lot of Budhist successful in their careers. Obviously the employer do have expectations and if you fail to meet them as you have no desire to do such, it may effect your survival.
You also have no desire NOT to do such. Laziness is a common affliction, isn't it? Doesn't it come from attachment, from being attached to the idea that "I don't want to!"
A Vietnamese monk named Thich Nhat Hanh wrote something that made sense to me; I wish I had the book with me, he said it better than I can. But anyway, he said that meditation is part of learning to be here at this moment. He describes a lot of different forms of meditation, not just sitting. For example, he describes washing dishes. He says if you wash the dishes so that you can finish and have some tea, then the whole time you're washing the dishes, you really aren't there, washing them. You're off thinking about your tea and how much you hate washing dishes, and looking out the window wondering what better things you could be doing with your time. Then the untrained mind will get the tea and sit and drink the tea but be thinking about what is next. Etc. Instead, he says we can train our minds so that when we wash the dishes, we don't do it to get them clean. We wash the dishes to wash the dishes, to experience that, and we try to be fully aware of it, so that we live that moment, as awake as we can be. A Buddhist could be a very good worker, because every tedious task is a great opportunity for meditation and following the 8-fold path!
Laziness is part of attachment. It is something the 8-fold path tries to teach us to overcome.
The Buddhists say, "Before enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood,carry water." The only difference is your awareness.
quote:
4) What is the purpose of life in the eye of Budhist?
I don't know. Buddhism does not have a supreme being, so ideas like karma (the law of cause and effect- one who hates Arabs passionately might be reborn a Arab, for example) are considered natural laws, not divine judgment. Becoming enlightened, therefore, isn't something you "should" do to please God or anything like that. It is just something that Buddhists believe is preferable to Samsara.
I guess that if this world is like a dream and we know that there is a perferable state that is awake, the purpose of life is to wake up and help wake others up. But it isn't something decreed by above, if that makes any sense.
quote:
I may search websites for my answers, but it would be much more convincing to hear from someone who is becoming Budhist and probably have gone through the same stages.
If you search, I'm sure you'll find more concise, less rambling answers. I hope my answers made some sense, but I have no doubt that you can find more wisdom elsewhere.
01-06-06, 11:40 AM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by frankvan:
quote: 1)How do you describe that stage when you have no desires? Are you happy or emotionally insensitive?
Although you addressed this question to Sarai, I can't wait to hear her answer without feeling an urge to try and apply my own answer.
As I have said many times, I am not a Buddhist, unless being atheist or non-theistic gives me the right to claim membership. But I don't think that getting rid of desire means having NO desires. I think it means having no un-fulfilled desires. I do not yearn for the unattainable, the unreachable stars, because my goals are realistic and attainable. I do not expect to attain by prayer what I haven't the skill or preparation to achieve. In other words, don't confuse desire with ambition or willingness to expend effort. I don't think Nirvana means you are now free to sit on your dead butt and have everything brought to you. Sarai may correct me on that but I think Buddha meant you are free of ego, of the negative aspects of passion, lust, jealousy,anger, etc. You have substituted selfishness for altruism. You don't feel less - I think you feel more keenly, with more satisfaction. IMHO.
Ahem. I just read this after writing my long answer. See what I mean about finding more wisdom elsewhere? Wink Thanks, Frank.
01-06-06, 11:44 AM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by babthrower: But I dare not call desirelessness selfish, which on the face of it, it is. But at a deeper level, desirelessness may be the only realistic road to a more humane humanity.
I disagree. Desirelessness is complete compassion, complete selflessness. I believe this very deeply, but don't think I can explain it. I'll try to share how my experience as an expat living in Mexico has taught me this, as I see and feel the pain of being exactly what many people really dislike (an American). I know that if they were not attached to the idea that they are Mexican (and not American), hurtful words would never come my way. And I know that if I were not attached to the idea that I am an American, the hurtful words would fall to my feet like an arrow that stops short of its target. Vice versa, I'm sure, for when Americans say terrible things to and about people of other cultures. If I were detached fully, I could understand Mexican's suffering and American's suffering fully without blame, fear, anger, hate or hurt.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sarai, 01-06-06 01:24 PM
01-07-06, 06:50 AM Insaf Sarai,
Thanks a lot for taking out time to answer my all my questions. And that too quite comprehensively.
I am re-reading your answer again and again in order to have a basic perspective of Budhism similar to yours.
As far as I have understood, Budhism is not concerned about God or hear-after etc. It talks about this life. The way this life should be lived without misery and suffering. The acheivement of the stage of enlightment(Nirvana) seems a little rare (you only had 2 examples,Dali Lama & Buddha). However, limited peace seems to there is previous stages as you may have given up many of the negative emotions. If this life is the only life, Budhism apparently offers a solution to human misery. Perhaps the people who practice it will be in a position to answer how much it actually works for them.
I belevie that some people have combined the Budhist and religious teaching together, perhaps in order to get peace in this life and rewards in here after.
One thing, I noticed is that many of the religions have some elements of the eight fold plan. In particular Islam which not only talks about loving, respecting, giving up jealousy etc. but also has a way of meditation i.e. the way Muslims perform their prayers 5 times a day. Anyways my knowledge of Budhist Meditation is limited so I am not in a position to form much opinions.
How do you guys meditate? I understand you can meditate while working etc but here I am concerned about meditation when you have spare time to specifically do that.
01-07-06, 06:54 AM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by frankvan:
I don't think Nirvana means you are now free to sit on your dead butt and have everything brought to you. Sarai may correct me on that but I think Buddha meant you are free of ego, of the negative aspects of passion, lust, jealousy,anger, etc. You have substituted selfishness for altruism. You don't feel less - I think you feel more keenly, with more satisfaction. IMHO.
From your definition Nirvana now seems to be a little attainable goal. Thanks.
01-07-06, 02:52 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by Insaf: Sarai,
Thanks a lot for taking out time to answer my all my questions. And that too quite comprehensively.
I am re-reading your answer again and again in order to have a basic perspective of Budhism similar to yours.
As far as I have understood, Budhism is not concerned about God or hear-after etc. It talks about this life. The way this life should be lived without misery and suffering. The acheivement of the stage of enlightment(Nirvana) seems a little rare (you only had 2 examples,Dali Lama & Buddha).
There are actually several enlightened beings
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 2248 | Location: In between | Registered: 06-03-02
Thank you so much for your questions, Insaf. I can't tell you how helpful it is to me, as a person trying to learn about a religion, to answer them. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but it really is a sincere thank you!
Keep in mind that I'm not an expert, but I'll answer them to the best of my knowledge at this stage of understanding.
quote:
Originally posted by Insaf: However, I have a few questions:
1)How do you describe that stage when you have no desires? Are you happy or emotionally insensitive?
I understand that this stage is something that cannot be explained to one who has not reached it, so since I haven't reached it, I certainly can't claim to know. Nevertheless, I understand that it is pure compassion. But it is detached compassion. The best way I can understand it is sort of like imagining a very elderly person watching his family running about the house, cooking, cleaning, fighting, playing etc. The elderly person will give advice if asked, advice that the young may heed or may ignore, and the elderly will feel compassion for his children and grandchildren and greatgrandchildren as he watches them make mistakes out of youth and ignorance and human folly. He understands what it is to suffer - he has been though it. But he is too old to be terribly shocked or hurt or pleased by any of it. He just watches.
Someone once told me that enlightenment can also be thought of as being completely in the moment, sort of like the way you are at the moment you move to avoid an accident. In that moment, you aren't worried about tomorrow or yesterday, or even feeling fear or sadness - you are just right there, doing what must be done not because you have to or because someone told you to or because you want something particularly - but just because it is what is to be done. You react without having to think about how to react, without self-consciousness, fully aware of your surroundings, fully alert, fully alive. Fully awake.
An enlightened person no longer is caught in the wheel of reincarnation, so when he dies, he is not born again, unless he chooses to (some believe, for example, that the Dalai Lama has chosen to reincarnate for several hundred years in order to help others reach enlightenment).
At that point, it is sometimes compared to a flame going out, but I have been told not to mistake that for oblivion. It isn't oblivion as we know it, but perhaps oblivion of the illusion of ego or self. Beyond that, I have no idea what it is.
quote:
2)In real human life nothing is constant and nothing keeps its balance forever.
This is a very Buddhist idea!
quote:
So if we want to mantain a particular style of living, we do need to apply some efforts for its mantainence. In other words we continously do need to have a desire to follow the 8 fold path. Or perhaps I am having difficulty conceiving that final stage. Are there any real people in this era who have acheived this stage?
The Buddha said that being a living enlightened one is like a flame that has gone out, but the coals are still hot. When the enlightened one's body dies, the embers go out as well. Thus there is no longer any tie to Samsara (the cycle of birth and rebirth). The person is no longer attached.
As I said, most people who reach enlightenment are not born again. Once they reach that point, there is no longer a need to keep trying. There is no more illusion of a self that needs to try.
The Dalai Lama is the only person I know of who is considered enlightened. But generally, the enlightened do not talk about being enlightened, so I don't think we would know. It is said that a Buddha is a person who reached enlightenment AND has the ability to share the experience with others, to give others understanding of the way to enlightenment. This is very rare and there have been very few Buddhas in our world. Most enlightened people are called Arahat. They are enlightened like the Buddha but cannot convey the experience to others.
quote:
3) Does Budhism effects your motivation etc. I think that there must be a lot of Budhist successful in their careers. Obviously the employer do have expectations and if you fail to meet them as you have no desire to do such, it may effect your survival.
You also have no desire NOT to do such. Laziness is a common affliction, isn't it? Doesn't it come from attachment, from being attached to the idea that "I don't want to!"
A Vietnamese monk named Thich Nhat Hanh wrote something that made sense to me; I wish I had the book with me, he said it better than I can. But anyway, he said that meditation is part of learning to be here at this moment. He describes a lot of different forms of meditation, not just sitting. For example, he describes washing dishes. He says if you wash the dishes so that you can finish and have some tea, then the whole time you're washing the dishes, you really aren't there, washing them. You're off thinking about your tea and how much you hate washing dishes, and looking out the window wondering what better things you could be doing with your time. Then the untrained mind will get the tea and sit and drink the tea but be thinking about what is next. Etc. Instead, he says we can train our minds so that when we wash the dishes, we don't do it to get them clean. We wash the dishes to wash the dishes, to experience that, and we try to be fully aware of it, so that we live that moment, as awake as we can be. A Buddhist could be a very good worker, because every tedious task is a great opportunity for meditation and following the 8-fold path!
Laziness is part of attachment. It is something the 8-fold path tries to teach us to overcome.
The Buddhists say, "Before enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood,carry water." The only difference is your awareness.
quote:
4) What is the purpose of life in the eye of Budhist?
I don't know. Buddhism does not have a supreme being, so ideas like karma (the law of cause and effect- one who hates Arabs passionately might be reborn a Arab, for example) are considered natural laws, not divine judgment. Becoming enlightened, therefore, isn't something you "should" do to please God or anything like that. It is just something that Buddhists believe is preferable to Samsara.
I guess that if this world is like a dream and we know that there is a perferable state that is awake, the purpose of life is to wake up and help wake others up. But it isn't something decreed by above, if that makes any sense.
quote:
I may search websites for my answers, but it would be much more convincing to hear from someone who is becoming Budhist and probably have gone through the same stages.
If you search, I'm sure you'll find more concise, less rambling answers. I hope my answers made some sense, but I have no doubt that you can find more wisdom elsewhere. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 01-06-06, 11:40 AM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by frankvan:
quote: 1)How do you describe that stage when you have no desires? Are you happy or emotionally insensitive?
Although you addressed this question to Sarai, I can't wait to hear her answer without feeling an urge to try and apply my own answer.
As I have said many times, I am not a Buddhist, unless being atheist or non-theistic gives me the right to claim membership. But I don't think that getting rid of desire means having NO desires. I think it means having no un-fulfilled desires. I do not yearn for the unattainable, the unreachable stars, because my goals are realistic and attainable. I do not expect to attain by prayer what I haven't the skill or preparation to achieve. In other words, don't confuse desire with ambition or willingness to expend effort. I don't think Nirvana means you are now free to sit on your dead butt and have everything brought to you. Sarai may correct me on that but I think Buddha meant you are free of ego, of the negative aspects of passion, lust, jealousy,anger, etc. You have substituted selfishness for altruism. You don't feel less - I think you feel more keenly, with more satisfaction. IMHO.
Ahem. I just read this after writing my long answer. See what I mean about finding more wisdom elsewhere? Wink Thanks, Frank.
01-06-06, 11:44 AM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by babthrower: But I dare not call desirelessness selfish, which on the face of it, it is. But at a deeper level, desirelessness may be the only realistic road to a more humane humanity.
I disagree. Desirelessness is complete compassion, complete selflessness. I believe this very deeply, but don't think I can explain it. I'll try to share how my experience as an expat living in Mexico has taught me this, as I see and feel the pain of being exactly what many people really dislike (an American). I know that if they were not attached to the idea that they are Mexican (and not American), hurtful words would never come my way. And I know that if I were not attached to the idea that I am an American, the hurtful words would fall to my feet like an arrow that stops short of its target. Vice versa, I'm sure, for when Americans say terrible things to and about people of other cultures. If I were detached fully, I could understand Mexican's suffering and American's suffering fully without blame, fear, anger, hate or hurt.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sarai, 01-06-06 01:24 PM
01-07-06, 06:50 AM Insaf Sarai,
Thanks a lot for taking out time to answer my all my questions. And that too quite comprehensively.
I am re-reading your answer again and again in order to have a basic perspective of Budhism similar to yours.
As far as I have understood, Budhism is not concerned about God or hear-after etc. It talks about this life. The way this life should be lived without misery and suffering. The acheivement of the stage of enlightment(Nirvana) seems a little rare (you only had 2 examples,Dali Lama & Buddha). However, limited peace seems to there is previous stages as you may have given up many of the negative emotions. If this life is the only life, Budhism apparently offers a solution to human misery. Perhaps the people who practice it will be in a position to answer how much it actually works for them.
I belevie that some people have combined the Budhist and religious teaching together, perhaps in order to get peace in this life and rewards in here after.
One thing, I noticed is that many of the religions have some elements of the eight fold plan. In particular Islam which not only talks about loving, respecting, giving up jealousy etc. but also has a way of meditation i.e. the way Muslims perform their prayers 5 times a day. Anyways my knowledge of Budhist Meditation is limited so I am not in a position to form much opinions.
How do you guys meditate? I understand you can meditate while working etc but here I am concerned about meditation when you have spare time to specifically do that.
01-07-06, 06:54 AM Insaf
quote: Originally posted by frankvan:
I don't think Nirvana means you are now free to sit on your dead butt and have everything brought to you. Sarai may correct me on that but I think Buddha meant you are free of ego, of the negative aspects of passion, lust, jealousy,anger, etc. You have substituted selfishness for altruism. You don't feel less - I think you feel more keenly, with more satisfaction. IMHO.
From your definition Nirvana now seems to be a little attainable goal. Thanks.
01-07-06, 02:52 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by Insaf: Sarai,
Thanks a lot for taking out time to answer my all my questions. And that too quite comprehensively.
I am re-reading your answer again and again in order to have a basic perspective of Budhism similar to yours.
As far as I have understood, Budhism is not concerned about God or hear-after etc. It talks about this life. The way this life should be lived without misery and suffering. The acheivement of the stage of enlightment(Nirvana) seems a little rare (you only had 2 examples,Dali Lama & Buddha).
There are actually several enlightened beings in the different relgious traditions of Buddhism, but I didn't name them all because I was trying to think of living people. I honestly believe there are many more than just the Dalai Lama, but most are not famous and I doubt they go around telling people the're enlightened. Smile I really don't know how common or uncommon it is, but it isn't easy. I believe that for most of us it takes at least one lifetime of study, if not many more.
quote: However, limited peace seems to there is previous stages as you may have given up many of the negative emotions. If this life is the only life, Budhism apparently offers a solution to human misery. Perhaps the people who practice it will be in a position to answer how much it actually works for them.
Yes, I think you're right. I've only been practicing for a few months, and I already feel that I'm calmer, less volatile than I used to be. It has also helped me greatly to deal with things that cause me suffering in a more effective way. Lately I am trying to learn more deeply about principles of non-violence, to apply them to conflicts in my day to day life. Not easy by any means, but I think it's a worthy challenge.
quote: I belevie that some people have combined the Budhist and religious teaching together, perhaps in order to get peace in this life and rewards in here after.
I have heard of this, and I think it is a fine thing to do. There are many ideas in Buddhism that I think can be used by other religious traditions without conflicting with the religious teachings of that tradition, and could be very beneficial for people. Some secular people who have no spiritual beliefs also use many Buddhist ideas and find them beneficial.
For me, personally, it wouldn't work, but that's me. There are some fundamental differences between Buddhism and many other religions, particularly the idea of a supreme being, the idea of a soul, and the idea of eternal punishment. Buddhism does not have those ideas. There are also some fundamental differences between Buddhism and atheistic materialism, such as the idea of a self (Buddhists don't believe in it), and especially the usefulness or importance the eight fold path (if you believe that when you die it all ends there, then one way out of suffering is simply to die, so an atheist materialist has no need to spend his time meditating and such if it doesn't seem interesting or useful to him, since he believes his suffering will end at death, even if he accepts the first 3 noble truths). But I agree that many parts of Buddhism could be useful for other religious people and other atheists, humanists, etc. I have a hard time reconciling the differences, but others obviously do not. I think it is pretty common for Buddhist ideas to be used in other traditions, even modern psychology.
quote: One thing, I noticed is that many of the religions have some elements of the eight fold plan. In particular Islam which not only talks about loving, respecting, giving up jealousy etc. but also has a way of meditation i.e. the way Muslims perform their prayers 5 times a day. Anyways my knowledge of Budhist Meditation is limited so I am not in a position to form much opinions.
I definitely think that all religions, at heart, teach a very similar morality and values system. I think the basic values of Islam, as I understand them, are quite beautiful.
quote: How do you guys meditate? I understand you can meditate while working etc but here I am concerned about meditation when you have spare time to specifically do that.
There are many ways to meditate, but I'll describe my two favorites. They are practiced, if possible in a full lotus position (both feet over the thigh of the opposite leg. I can't do that comfortably, so I do a half lotus (one foot over the thigh of the other leg). A pillow is often used, so that the bottom is elevated a bit and the knees touch the floor. Others use the Japanese style of sitting on the balls of the feet, with the knees folded underneath. The reason for these positions is because they have been shown over the years to be positions that keep one alert (you don't want to fall asleep while meditating), but that once the body is used to the positions, are not uncomfortable after long periods of time (many other positions end up leaving one leg asleep, or the spine starts to smart, etc).
The first is simple breathing mediation. The one who meditates sits and simply focuses on the breath. He notes the breath in and the breath out. Whenever other thoughts arise, he does not fight the thoughts, nor does he follow them or get involved with them. Instead, he watches the thought and simply notes "a thought" and then brings his focus back to the breath. This meditation is the most fundamental one, I think, designed to help the meditator learn to still his mind, so it stops jumping around, following every silly thought and desire like a monkey. It is not as easy as it might seem. As a beginner, I only meditate for about 10 minutes at a time, and sometimes I've spent the whole 10 minutes before I realized that I was just daydreaming and following random thoughts around, not focusing on my breath at all!
The second is called metta, or loving-kindness. It is designed to develop compassion. The meditator begins with breathing meditation for 10 breaths (starting count again if he loses focus and therefore loses count), until he successful has completed 10 mindful breaths. Then he imagines himself perfectly happy, perfectly at peace, and allows himself to feel the emotions of happiness and peace. And then he thinks or says out loud something like this:
May I be happy and healthy May I be at peace May I be free from anger and ill-will May I be filled with metta (which means compassion or loving-kindness).
With each wish, he brings those feelings as best he can to himself.
Then he imagines someone he loves deeply, and imagines that person happy and at peace, saying or thinking
May you be happy and healthy May you be at peace May you be free from anger and ill-will May you be filled with metta.
With each wish, he imagines that person feelings that as best as he can, and tries to share in that.
Then he does the same, but with a person he feels neutral about, bringing up the same emotions he imagined for himself and his loved one. For example, a neighbor or coworker whom he doesn't know well. I love this part, because it always feels so good to see that person later in daily life and suddenly feel a connection to them.
Then he does the same, but with a person he feels negative feelings about, such as an enemy or a person who hurts him or intimidates him. This is the hardest part but may be the most important.
Then he does the same, but out to all beings of the universe.
Thanks again for the questions. I really do appreciate having the opportunity to try to answer them. If you have other questions, maybe you should start a new post with that question, so that new viewers can follow the conversation easier. Thanks again! Smile
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sarai, 01-07-06 03:28 PM
01-07-06, 04:43 PM bik74
quote: Originally posted by Sarai,
One thing, I noticed is that many of the religions have some elements of the eight fold plan. In particular Islam which not only talks about loving, respecting, giving up jealousy etc. but also has a way of meditation i.e. the way Muslims perform their prayers 5 times a day. Anyways my knowledge of Budhist Meditation is limited so I am not in a position to form much opinions.
How do you guys meditate? I understand you can meditate while working etc but here I am concerned about meditation when you have spare time to specifically do that.
Yes we muslims pray/worship 5 times a day (atleast). No idea if our prayers can be called meditation. Just for my knowledge.... can we descirbe meditation with example ? In our obligatory prayer ... its not just about reciting words but also involves some bodily action (Like bowing your head down to God).
Further there is another prayer called 'Tahajud', which muslims are told to do. This is like other prayers but performed in deep night... ie arround 1AM TO 3AM...or so. Its not compulsory but recommended that it should be done like once a week or once a month. ___________________________________
Further islamic traditions tells us that holy prophet (peace be upon him) got his first revelation through Gibrael (peace be upon him) while he was in Cave Hira. Before the message of Allah came to Muhammed (peace be upon him), he used to seclude himself to this cave and meditate, sometimes even for days. It was during this meditation that Gibrael (peace be upon him) came. Rest is history.
01-07-06, 04:45 PM bik74 I know its not the topic but posting again what the first revelation of Quran came to Muhammed (peace be upon him): Chapter 96 First 5 verses. Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created- 096.002 Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood: 096.003 Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,- 096.004 He Who taught (the use of) the pen,- 096.005 Taught man that which he knew not.
01-08-06, 11:19 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by bik74: Yes we muslims pray/worship 5 times a day (atleast). No idea if our prayers can be called meditation. Just for my knowledge.... can we descirbe meditation with example ? In our obligatory prayer ... its not just about reciting words but also involves some bodily action (Like bowing your head down to God).
Hi, Bik. Smile Did you see the two examples of meditation that I posted in the post right before yours? If so, I hope that gives you an idea of what it is. You can see that it is not about just reciting words. Most Buddhist meditations that I know do not use recitation at all, but some do. However, if a person is reciting words without focusing on them, he is not being mindful, which is contrary to the point of meditation. For example, doing the metta meditation without making the effort to focus on the images and emotions involved really isn't effective at all. Doing the meditation is actually kind of difficult and takes real focus and concentration.
Like Muslim prayers, I think that some Buddhist meditations also have specific movements involved, but I'm not sure about that. There is a walking meditation that I have recently learned about, but it is not intricate in the physical movements like a Muslim prayer. It simply involves walking very deliberately. Most of the mediations that I know focus on mental activity.
If you meant that you would like a definition of meditation, I think it is hard to define, but I'd say it is a spiritual activity in which the body is made relaxed but alert and the mind is focused deeply on something. I think all prayer, done properly (that is, not just empty recitation of words) can be meditation, but not all meditation is prayer.
01-09-06, 12:31 PM Insaf Sarai,
I did try the breathing meditation. In start, it was fun and felt good but then I realized that maintaining focus on breathing is tough and the mind get drifted away in seconds. I do get frustated as it is extremely difficult to stop yourself from drifting into thoughts. Plus the Yoga position is being not at ease and definitly one cannot fall asleep in that position.
As far Muslim prayers are concerned. It is a form of meditation. As one tends to maintain focus as well as process only what is being recited. There should be nothing else in your mind. As much of the recititation is repeated it does happen that one may be reciting a verse but his mind is lost somewhere else. This happens especially when you are trying to focus on someone else's recitation. So Muslim do work on their focus abilities and focus away from their routine life (work, family etc) during their prayers. Also the physical movement in Muslim prayers ensures, that the person remains awake. Also the blood circulation is better due to various changing position and one do not get any body part numb.Also breathing in different position also serves as an excercise on the lungs. So a muslim prayer is meditation, excercise and also serves relegious purpose.
The bottom line is that I am starting to believe that meditation in any form is necessary for acheivement of peace.
Thank a lot, Sarai.
01-09-06, 12:53 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by Insaf: Sarai,
I did try the breathing meditation. In start, it was fun and felt good but then I realized that maintaining focus on breathing is tough and the mind get drifted away in seconds. I do get frustated as it is extremely difficult to stop yourself from drifting into thoughts. Plus the Yoga position is being not at ease and definitly one cannot fall asleep in that position.
Insaf, I can't tell you how much your post made my day! Thank you for letting me know that you tried it! Smile
I agree that it isn't easy. If you find the position very uncomfortable, try another (you might do a search for Japanese seiza sitting position - I don't know how to describe it but many people find it more comfortable than the lotus). I think you can really sit any way you want, but just make sure you aren't so comfortable that you fall asleep, or so uncomfortable that you can't focus on the meditation.
I also understand how hard it is to focus! That's why they say that beginners should only meditate for a short period of time. Like any exercise, it's something you get better at with time. Try not to get frustrated with yourself. Be patient with yourself. If your mind wanders, just note that your mind is wandering, and then gently bring your thought back to your breath.
It really is incredible to me to realize that I have all of these thoughts that are so hard to control. It is interesting to think about all the times when I'm NOT meditating, how untamed my mind is!
If you're like me, you might find the metta meditation easier.
quote:
As far Muslim prayers are concerned. It is a form of meditation. As one tends to maintain focus as well as process only what is being recited. There should be nothing else in your mind. As much of the recititation is repeated it does happen that one may be reciting a verse but his mind is lost somewhere else. This happens especially when you are trying to focus on someone else's recitation. So Muslim do work on their focus abilities and focus away from their routine life (work, family etc) during their prayers. Also the physical movement in Muslim prayers ensures, that the person remains awake. Also the blood circulation is better due to various changing position and one do not get any body part numb.Also breathing in different position also serves as an excercise on the lungs. So a muslim prayer is meditation, excercise and also serves relegious purpose.
The bottom line is that I am starting to believe that meditation in any form is necessary for acheivement of peace.
Thank a lot, Sarai.
I agree with your point about Muslim prayers. Certainly the physical part must serve a good purpose, or it wouldn't be so fundamental to the tradition. I hope the meditations you are trying can serve you in your practice of Islam.
01-09-06, 08:07 PM Insaf
quote:
It really is incredible to me to realize that I have all of these thoughts that are so hard to control. It is interesting to think about all the times when I'm NOT meditating, how untamed my mind is!
quote:
I also feel that the my mind is pretty untrained. It is like a wild horse. I think once it becomes trained I will be able to make fuller use of it. I even think that meditation would bring more discipline in our every day activities. Most of the time, I am awake, I am working. My job requires mental work. Is it possible to meditate during work?
01-10-06, 12:58 PM Sarai Insaf, I don't know the answer to that question, but since when did I let not knowing stop me from making a guess? Wink
I suspect that for beginners, it really isn't possible to meditate while working, at least not anything like what you do during prayer or sitting meditation. I say that because if it is hard for us to focus when there is nothing to distract us but our own mind, how much more difficult must it be when one has work to do and people to talk to and a busy office to be in?
I think one purpose of meditation is to develop mindfulness, so that hopefully we can begin to apply what we learn while meditating to our daily life. We can learn to wash the dishes to wash the dishes, and do our job to do our job. So we can try to stay focused at work, but we still have to focus on the work, if that makes any sense.
Also, I think that work is a good place to practice compassion and patience, which are both things that meditation teaches us. When a situation is frustrating or a coworker gets on our nerves, we have a great opportunity to practice. Practice serving others. Practice saying nothing when angry until the right thing comes to mind. Practice letting others win. Practice being in the moment so that when the copy machine breaks, we don't freak out because we can't get the copies right this minute. We can just be there and let the stresses of work come and go without attaching ourselves to them, like thoughts during a breathing meditation. It is there and then floats away. That sort of thing.
So maybe work is where we can put into practice the skills that we learn while meditating.
01-10-06, 09:33 PM Insaf Sarai,
You earlier told me that Budhism has a concept of reincarnation. I understood from a website that this reincarnation will continue unless we reach Nirvana.
What I do not understand is if Buddha was an agnostic (as he never denied nor accepted existense of God), how was he able to tell things like reincarnation which is beyond normal human comprehension? Maybe, being an indian, he was influenced by the Hindu concept of reincarnation and hence incorporated it into his theory to in order to have better influence on the people around him.
01-11-06, 07:14 AM Elexina Insaf, I don not claim to be familiar with the Buddha or with Buddhism, but I can tell you that a person can certainly be spiritual and have a spiritual understanding without being religious of believing in God. God is not a pre-requisite to having an understanding of an afterlife and the spiritual realm.
01-11-06, 10:47 AM Sarai Insaf, your understanding about rebirth being endless until one reaches Nirvana and about the Buddha's being influenced by Hinduism is the same as mine. The Buddha was born and raised a Hindu in fact and is also revered by many Hindus.
I also agree with Elexina.
The Buddha did teach that there are Gods, but that they are not enlightened and are also part of Samsara (the cycle of birth and rebirth). They also suffer. There is no creator God in Buddhism. Buddhism teaches that there is no beginning to the Universe. Everything is dependent on other things, with no first cause. Some say that there must be a first cause, but if a person can accept the idea that there is a god with no first cause, then it should not be hard to accept the idea that the universe exists with no first cause.
quote: In the Buddhist texts Mahâ Brahmâ is represented as claiming the following attributes for himself:
"I am Brahmâ, the Great Brahmâ, the Supreme One, the Mighty, the All-seeing, the Ruler, the Lord of all, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief of all appointing to each his place, the Ancient of days, the Father of all that is and will be." (Dîgha Nikáya, II, 263).
The Buddha dismisses all these claims of Mahâ Brahmâ as being due to his own delusions brought about by ignorance. He argues that Mahâ-Brahmâ is simply another deva, perhaps with greater karmic force than the other gods, but nonetheless a deva and therefore unenlightened and subject to the samsâric process as determined by his karma. In such Suttas as the Brahmajâla sutta and the Agga¤¤a Sutta the Buddha refutes the claims of Maha Brahmâ and shows him to be subject to karmic law (i.e. cosmic law). Even though long-lived Mahâ Brahmâ will be eliminated in each cycle of inevitable world dissolution and re-evolution. In the Khevadda Sutta Mahâ Brahmâ is forced to admit to an inquiring monk that he is unable to answer a question that is posed to him, and advises the monk to consult the Buddha. This clearly shows the Brahmâ acknowledges the superiority of the Buddha.
The Buddhist view is that gods may lead more comfortable lives and be addicted to all the sense pleasures, but in terms of wisdom might be inferior to humans. They are even represented as coming to receive instruction from monks and even lay persons.
I worry that this is not right speech, because I'm sure this will seem wrong to you and may even seem hurtful or insulting or even evil to you, but that isn't intended and I hope you will take it with a grain of salt.
I will add that I am not an expert in Buddhism and I think it is possible that while there isn't a creator God with a personality and wants and needs, I think the nature of the ultimate truth is something holy and transcendent that cannot be understood or described, and some might call that God.
If the teaching that there is no creator God with a personality seems false to you, I see no reason why you must choose between that belief and the basic teachings of Buddhism. The Buddha said that you should not accept his teachings on faith, but that you should accept them only if they make sense to you. If this teaching about God seems false to you, I think you can still benefit from the practice of meditation and the search for peace without embracing those ideas that go against Islam.
Peace be with you.
01-11-06, 01:09 PM babthrower Thank you for your interesting thread, Sarai.
Could you explain why you find it useful to seek religious activity at all, if you are comfortable with the idea of a universe without god(s)?
(This is a sincere question, by the way. Because I know atheists and agnostics who are keen students of moral philosophy, concerned with knowing the right so that they may do the right thing, but they don't study any religion as such to find the right.)
01-11-06, 04:49 PM Sarai Babthrower- One thing that made me laugh but really struck me as true was an episode of Seinfeld when he and Elaine attend a funeral. Elaine says something like, "I hate funerals. You always leave thinking, I'm going to die. Me! Can you believe it? Me, dead!" And then Jerry says, "Yeah, and then you say to yourself, from this day forward, I'm going to do something with my life. I'm not going to waste it anymore! But then you think, wait, what can I do that isn't wasting my life? I mean, is this wasting my life, sitting drinking coffee with you?" And Elaine screams, "YEAH! I mean, can't a person enjoy a cup of coffee?!!" It was funny but kind of true, for me at least.
As you know, I've been somewhere between atheist and agnostic for years. I guess what it came down to was a sort of despair that I was feeling. I live constantly with a feeling of frustration with the world. Frustration with my own country, frustration with others who can't understand my country, frustration that the whole world is filled with people who blame others and shake our fingers and feel superior to everyone else. Frustration with all the hatred and finger-pointing and arrogance and stereotypes and pettiness and just plain mean things that we all (myself included) do and think and say every day. Frustration that the world is what it is and I can't see any solution. The only thing I can think of that would not be "wasting my life" in a totally non-spiritual world would be to work for peace, but my faith in peace-making in this world is not very strong. I don't have any solutions or know any answers. And frankly, even Gandhi really, after all is said and done, didn't leave a more peaceful world. He just left footprints that we can follow individually, but I don't think it is realistic to hope for more than that in a non-spiritual world. After all of Gandhi's work, what do we see? India split into two countries that are pointing nukes at each other! I'm no Gandhi and even if I were, what difference would it really make?
And what if the world somehow did become this perfectly peaceful place? Would human beings be happy then? Of course not. We would get bored and restless. I fully agree with the Buddha- we are, fundamentally, not capable of being satisfied in this existence. Whatever we do, whatever goals we have, when we get there, we will find we are just as unsatisfied as we were before. It is like running on a treadmill.
I think the world has always been a beautiful place and also a horrible place, and I just started to realize that I don't believe it is possible for there to be a better world. I don't believe there is a "golden age" in history when everything was better than it is today that we might hope to return to, nor do I see a progressive improvement over time. There might be moments of greatness but they never last (nor, thankfully, do moments of horror, I have to admit). I came to the conclusion that misery is, was and always will be, regardless of what we do. What a depressing thought for one who has nothing but this world to believe in. I just needed some hope, that's all. I'm beginning to find it in Buddha's teachings.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sarai, 01-11-06 05:41 PM
01-12-06, 07:00 AM tsaeb I think that it is important to control one's mind, at least concerning about what one thinks/reasons/meditates/feels. If one decides to use one's mind in a certain way, then why would one need Buddhism . . . as a crutch? Can one's negativity be surmounted as long as one returns to focus on what is negative in the world? It seems that one is better off assuming that there is a God in the hopeful thought that He is helping one despite how things look. I think that it is a frequent error for folks to assume that all faith must be directed toward God: there is faith in predictable outcomes, faith in self, and the like. Perhaps a broader knowledge of what one's mind can truly do other than continue on the same path the same one way is what's needed.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 2248 | Location: In between | Registered: 06-03-02
I enter this discussion quite late. I wonder if any of you have read "The End of Faith." by Sam Harris link
My own summary of the book is that faith-based religions -- one that require belief in a fixed text, essentially -- are dangerous for many reasons he illuminates. But those that center on a quest for spirituality -- ie Eastern religions, mainly -- promote progress; and remain in the realm of things that are subject to inquiry. It's challenging but rewarding reading. ++++++++++++++++++ 01-12-06, 12:47 PM babthrower I don't want to prejudge the book, but the passivity of Buddhism and the fatalism of some other eastern philosopy/religions doesn't seem to foster the scientific method and the urge for social change. It is, ironically, in the west that the enlightenment and the birth of science and democracy occurred.
Do you suppose that the anti-intellectualism of western religion caused a sort of Hegelian thesis-antithesis dynamic to happen?
If so, what is the synthesis to be?
01-12-06, 01:11 PM Insaf Sarai,
As the majority of the world do not follow Budhism. It may be appropriate to say that the majority of this world is far away from the stage of Nirvana. And after every rebirth one has to again start his stuggle from scratch, Nirvana is apparently an unacheivable target. And humans shall remain miserable if they will have desire to acheive this unacheivable target.
I think what is giving peace to humans(including budhism) is giving up the negative thoughts and negative desires. Negative thoughts and desires have already been condemned in various religions. But who is currently following religion in these aspects anyways. People generally follow religion more externally (e.g. going to church etc.) than internally(like spritually praying every day). And the truth is that peace comes from inside. Relegion teaches that one should not get upset in this world as this world is temperory and real happiness lies in the next world. And people who beleive in this do not get upset as they think that God in not unjust, and will give them happiness in the after life. As their thought is positive, even in misery they wont feel miserable. They no longer have desires for this world. And the target they have is acheivable/attainable.
Give me your thoughts on the above and also tell me what happens after Nirvana.
01-12-06, 02:29 PM Elexina
quote: I wonder if any of you have read "The End of Faith." by Sam Harris
Actually, I have begun reading it, and I saw a lecture he gave on BookTV last month. Very interesting.
01-12-06, 08:01 PM Sarai Tsaeb, I'm not sure I fully understood your post, but I think you were suggesting that it would be better to learn to control the mind without relying on Buddhism to do so. I think that if that works for you, that's fine. For me, I don't think of Buddhism as a crutch so much as a tool to help me find my way toward something true and important. For me, Buddhism seems to be working. When it stops being useful, I will stop learning from it.
Sid and Elexina - that book does sound interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Babthrower- I can't speak to why the scientific method developed in the West. I can say that I think there is a scientific method and there is a Buddhist method. They are both useful in different ways for different things.
Also, Buddhists do fight, quite passionately, for social change, but generally do so without weapons. The world could use a little more passivity in certain ways, couldn't it?
Insaf-
quote: Originally posted by Insaf: Nirvana is apparently an unacheivable target. And humans shall remain miserable if they will have desire to acheive this unacheivable target.
I don't agree that it is unacheivable. I believe that it is hard to acheive, but not unacheivable. As for having to start from scratch in each life, I don't think that is quite true.
quote: I think what is giving peace to humans(including budhism) is giving up the negative thoughts and negative desires. Negative thoughts and desires have already been condemned in various religions. But who is currently following religion in these aspects anyways. People generally follow religion more externally (e.g. going to church etc.) than internally(like spritually praying every day). And the truth is that peace comes from inside. Relegion teaches that one should not get upset in this world as this world is temperory and real happiness lies in the next world. And people who beleive in this do not get upset as they think that God in not unjust, and will give them happiness in the after life. As their thought is positive, even in misery they wont feel miserable. They no
AnswerPool.com 
