Based on our discussion in the "Past Life Memories" thread, I thought this article might interest some of you. It's kind of long, but if the idea of rebirth is interesting to you, you might find it interesting.
The purpose of this article isn't to scientifically prove rebirth or anything like that, though. It is really about the ethical sense that such a belief makes. Please read the article (if you're interested) to get a sense of the overall argument.
By the way, I'm posting this because I learn from discussion. Someone, somewhere is going to accuse me of preaching, but what I'm really trying to do is clarify my own beliefs, and discussion (and perhaps being forced to try to defend the beliefs I'm beginning to develop) will help me do that. I'm definitely not standing on solid ground yet.
Posts: 2259 | Location: In between | Registered: 06-03-02
Thank you for the link Sarai, I will definitely read that. As for "preaching," don't worry. I don't think anyone here would accuse you of that. We all know you're mature enough to find the appropriate forums for that, if you did want to preach. But Buddhism isn't really about preaching, anyway, right?
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what I'm really trying to do is clarify my own beliefs
And that is very responsible and honorable of you. More people should delve so deeply and invest so much time in determining their beliefs, rather than merely accepting what is handed to them.
BB.
Posts: 4759 | Location: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
Thanks, Elexina. Since posting that I've found several other interesting articles on that site, some that I considered posting here, but I think I'd better not go too crazy with the links. But anyway, it's definitely a good place to go for people who are interested in Buddhism. Maybe the Theraveda tradition is the one for me.
Posts: 2259 | Location: In between | Registered: 06-03-02
As I said in an earlier thread, I do think that rebirth makes sense. I don't mean that I believe in it any more than I believe in many religious beliefs, only that I find it superior to the heaven/paradise/hell methods for keeping believers in line. It just seems a more reasonable and just way of handling these issues.
I don't agree that the only reason for entertaining such ideas is the inability to accept one's own mortality. I do agree with Juan that that is the most prevalent reason, but I think the older one gets and the more closely one approaches his own demise the less it matters. I expect what I accept as the likely after life, a condition similar to the one I had before being born: oblivion.
Thank you for the link, Sarai. I did read it, found it interesting, and came away with the feeling that it contained much of what it takes one a lifetime to conclude should be self-evident. I remain agnostic/atheist but I think Buddhism is far less offensive than most of the theistic doctrines.
I've been trying to reconcile the Buddhist teaching of "no (fundamental, unchanging, eternal) self" with the belief in rebirth, and it is starting to make sense.
This site has given me some insight. For those who are interested:
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BUDDHISM AND HINDUISM COMPARED The word "Samsara" means literally "continuing on", "wandering on". It signifies the repetitive cycle of birth, ageing, death and rebirth.
Now though Buddhism and Hinduism share the concept of rebirth, the Buddhist concept differs in details from the Hindu doctrine. The doctrine of rebirth as understood in Hinduism involves a permanent soul, a conscious entity which transmigrates from one body to another. The soul inhabits a given body and at death, the soul casts that body off and goes on to assume another body. The famous Hindu classic, the Bhagavad Gita, compares this to a man who might take off one suit of clothing and put on another. The man remains the same but the suits of clothing are different. In the same way the soul remains the same but the psycho-physical organism it takes up differs from life to life.
The Buddhist term for rebirth in Pali is "punabbhava" which means "again existence". Buddhism sees rebirth not as the transmigration of a conscious entity but as the repeated occurrence of the process of existence. There is a continuity, a transmission of influence, a causal connection between one life and another. But there is no soul, no permanent entity which transmigrates from one life to another.
REBIRTH WITHOUT A TRANSMIGRATING SOUL The concept of rebirth without a transmigrating soul commonly raises the question: How can we speak of ourselves as having lived past lives if there is no soul, no single life going through these many lives? To answer this we have to understand the nature of individual identity in a single lifetime. The Buddha explains that what we really are is a functionally unified combination of five aggregates. The five aggregates fall into two groups. First there is a material process, which is a current of material energy. Then there is a mental process, a current of mental happenings. Both these currents consist of factors that are subject to momentary arising and passing away. The mind is a series of mental acts made up of feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousnes. These mental acts are called in Pali "cittas". Each citta arises, breaks up and passes away. When it breaks up it does not leave any traces behind. It does not have any core or inner essence that remains. But as soon as the citta breaks up, immediately afterwards there arises another citta. Thus we find the mind as a succession of cittas, or series of momentary acts of consciousness.
Now when each citta falls away it transmits to its successor whatever impression has been recorded on itself, whatever experience it has undergone. Its perceptions, emotions and volitional force are passed on to the next citta, and thus all experiences we undergo leave their imprint on the onward flow of consciousness, on the "cittasantana", the continuum of mind. This transmission of influence, this causal continuity, gives us our continued identity. We remain the same person through the whole lifetime because of this continuity.
Thoughts arise and fall without anyone controlling them. Thoughts are like bubbles that float around the mind. They are born and die constantly. But each one begets the next. What continues from life to life is not a soul or a spirit, but a streamline of cause and effect. It makes sense to me!
Posts: 2259 | Location: In between | Registered: 06-03-02
OK. We will just have to agree to disagree on this. I see us all as biological units, and when the heart stops, and the brain cells all die, we are a shell. That's it.
Posts: 8300 | Location: On Vacation | Registered: 06-06-02
I am not sure I believe in re-birth, but then I am not even sure if I believe in Heaven or Hell or other after-life states of consciousness.
First of all, I mostly don't like the idea of an arbitrary set of rules about who can and who can't go somewhere. How can any Being truely understand actions, etc on every level that exists for every person.
But mostly I think that living an eternity without the possibility of change, growth, etc would be Hell indeed.
Part of what makes Life worth living is the WORK that I have to do to make it better, the effort I make in being a better person and the risk of failure being my own fault.
Anyway, I guess I said nothing really worth listening to/reading, but I don't know what I want to happen after I die. Oblivion would be better than many other choices that are possible.
Posts: 9309 | Location: PA, USA | Registered: 06-05-02
Sherasi: I think it's okay not to be sure. I'm not 100% sure either, although I'm beginning to think I might have actually found something to believe in. But that doesn't mean you have to! But, just for sport...
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Originally posted by Sherasi: I am not sure I believe in re-birth, but then I am not even sure if I believe in Heaven or Hell or other after-life states of consciousness.
Buddhists teach that there is no afterlife because there is no life, exactly. You and I are simply the composite of a mixture of things, all of which are constantly changing. Can you think of any aspect of "you" that has never changed and never will change during your life? The Buddhists say there is nothing - everything is in a constant state of change. SherasiYesterday is dead and all there is right now is SherasiNow, who will die shortly. You are constantly dying and "again becoming" (which is the more accurate translation of the Buddha's words than "rebirth"), so nothing really changes after your death - your last moment just causes another moment to again become.
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First of all, I mostly don't like the idea of an arbitrary set of rules about who can and who can't go somewhere. How can any Being truely understand actions, etc on every level that exists for every person.
Buddhists don't believe this is determined by a god or Being. It is simply a natural law, like gravity. Gravity says you can't jump off the top of the Empire State Building and fly away. Karma says you can't commit an action without receiving its effect.
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But mostly I think that living an eternity without the possibility of change, growth, etc would be Hell indeed.
Interestingly, the Buddhist idea is that everything in life is temporary, constantly in flux. This, for the Buddhist, is the cause of suffering. We come to love something - and then we lose it. We come to think we are something - and then we learn we're not. The way out of suffering includes the acceptance of the fact that nothing is permanent, to get rid of our ego and our cravings, our desire for permanence in a world that has nothing permanent to hold on. Nirvana is leaving the cycle.
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Oblivion would be better than many other choices that are possible.
In a sense, that is what Nirvana is (to my understanding). It is oblivion of the ego (the false belief in Self). An enlightened one does not become again.
Posts: 2259 | Location: In between | Registered: 06-03-02
