This one probably needs Hippolips to clarify, but anyone with the answer will be be greatly appreciated! Although I teach jazz, I have often been puzzled by an apparent anomaly in the notating of 'swing' in the printed copy.

There are two basic ways of writing down the style of 'swung' rhythms, both of which avoid the correct, but fussily over-the-top notation of a triplet across every crotchet/quaver (quarter note/eighth note)pairing. One is to write a dotted eighth note paired with a sixteenth note, with a little code at the top of the music instructing the performer to treat the pairing as a standard eighth/sixteenth triplet, and the other, much preferred by me is to use equal eighths paired normally, with the same indication as to treatment at the start of the score.
The problem occurs when, during the course of the piece the arranger decides to go from straight eighths to dotted eighth/sixteenths, with no other instructions to the player. I always tell my students to treat all examples as the same swung rhythm as the effect is virtually identical on most occasions.

This, of course, produces puzzlement amongst novices who have recently learned that triplets have a different feel to an exact 3/4 - 1/4 relationship in the classical treatment, and can waste valuable time during the lesson, trying to point out that arrangers can be ambiguous, suddenly deciding to switch from one style of writing to another for no apparent reason.

Here is the question! Do top professional jazz players treat a sudden pairing of equal quavers, with no other indication on the score as the same as all the other dotted rhythms (and vice versa) or do they treat them literally as a slight change from the norm as required by the original instructions?

A response would be very much appreciated...cheers!

[This message was edited by Ritzmar on 03-27-03 at 03:07 AM.]

The easiest way to explain "Swinging Eighths" to a student is this: Standard Eighths are counted 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & /1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & etc.[With equal spacing between the 1 & 2 & 3 & 4]
Swinging Eighths are counted like this:
1..ta2..ta3..ta4..ta/1..ta2..ta3..ta4..ta/1 etc.
* note the ta is closer to the 2 than to the 1.The ta is also closer to the 3 than to the 2.the ta is closer to the 4 than to the 3,etc.
Another way to explain it is for you to listen to your own heartbeat...it goes ta2..ta3
..ta4..ta1 etc.
The reason that Jazz swings is because your heart swings!
Hope this helps.

One more thing...many composers will actually write the words'Swing Eighths" above bars of music containing Swing Eighths.

Cheers, 'Lips!
Points taken, but you do not say whether you treat dotted eighth/sixteenth notes and equal eighth notes in the same swung piece as identical to each other or differently (I wish I could write the music down here,rather than clumsily describing the notes!) In a piece which I know to be swung, I often see both dotted rhythms, and straight eighths. I ask whether you treat them both the same in that same piece (as I do) or whether you draw a distinction beween the two styles in the way that you interpret them.

Hi Ritz:
Most of the tunes I play,or attempt to play are either Standards or Jazz originals.As a result I'm more concerned about whether the tune "swings".Since I know most of the Standard tunes,having heard or played them for years,I'm not really reading them...the melody is already in my head.With Jazz originals,while sight reading ,I'm more concerned with making the tune swing ,or trying to play them as the composer intended them to be played.The tempo at which the tunes are played also has a lot to do with how they are phrased.I've heard "Lady Be Good" done as a ballad and"After You've Gone" done as a Bossa Nova for example.I think I'm concerned about capturing the mood the composer had in mind when he wrote the tune.
Also I really enjoy improvising over the chord changes to the tune more than actually playing the melody.The melody,to me,is just a place to start and stop the tune.I enjoy trying to get "inside" the tune by substituting chord changes for the original changes and improvising over the substitute changes as well.
Since I'm playing guitar now the instrument lends itself to a lot of half step chromatic chord changes.These are easy to do on guitar but much more difficult to do on piano.Example;half stepping down from E7 to Eb7 to D7...easy to do on guitar,hard to do on piano.With the guitar you never have to change your grip ... on piano you have to change your grip[hand position] on every chord.
But I digress...since I know that you also play and teach the Classics I'm sure that you teach a strict interpretation of each Classical piece,whereas Jazz allows you the leeway to inject your own personal interpretation into each Jazz tune.

Yes! Thanks, 'Lips. My sentiments too. The problem really occurs when my students, who have learned to read 'properly' ask me why I tell them to swing two types of notation within the same piece, when I have taught them that different notating means different execution. I too feel that the spirit of the music in jazz and popular music is far more important than a meticulous and precise articulation of every dot on the page. I just wish that copyists would stick to one system or the other in the same piece.
It is tricky, having spent weeks getting a pupil to play a classical piece exactly as written, only to tell him/her to ignore it now, and treat all subdivisions of the quarter note in exactly the same way...

Hi Ritz:
I guess what it really comes down to is this;Jazz [or Swing] is subject to a flexible interpretation while Classical is subject to a strict interpretation.
It all comes down to what Duke Ellington said,"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing".
Jazz can be taught but if the student doesn't feel when something swings [or doesn't swing] his playing will always sound mechanical.
Of course technique also comes into play since a student requires a certain amount of technique in order to execute a jazz phrase.Repetition of jazz licks also helps the player to execute the "licks" that he hears in his head.When I first began to play the guitar I had a terrible time playing any idea that had
a flatted 3rd followed by a standard 3rd[Example Eb to E].But by playing these notes over an over,it became easier and easier.Until you overcome the fingering of a "lick",it won't swing because you are trying to overcome the actual execution of the phrase.Some phrases are just more difficult to execute.The 6th and 7th bars of "Take The A Train" are tough to play on guitar because of the fingering involved.
Ever notice that some fingerings on piano are easy but difficult when played on another instrument?When I first began playing Guitar I almost had to unlearn what I had learned on Piano.

I was taught way back when (Hah!) that in general, if the piece was simply using eighths (Semi-quavers, if you insist (; ) up until you hit a section of dotted eighth-sixteenths, the second pattern was meant to be a little jerky and seperated, more like the 'rick-a-tick-a' style that you heard in very early ragtime. You find that distinction more often in big band charts, I've found, but it does show up much more often the more recent a piece is.

Arcadion:
I've read and reread your post several times.The best explanation I can give is the two posts I wrote on 3-26-03 on this same subject.Scroll back and you can read them.It's a very hard thing to explain without actually playing it to demonstrate what I mean.