....maybe by writing/asking this it will be "reverse" jinx. ya know, you state or predict something and the opposite happens?

after 15 yrs. i almost staring down the barrel of a divorce. what breaks my heart and confuses me is that I may be the one dropping papers on her. don't want it to be this way. i'd do anything to reverse tide. it's nothing sexy like adultry or such, just "stuff"....arguments used to be bitch sessions and now they're personal and they hurt.

anyway...never been here before and i need some advice.

LEGAL:
we know each other's schedule and we share the checkbook so i couldn't see a lawyer without stirring the pot. so, what's first. you get a seperation right? is that a legal thing with a judge and all? what about kids and property?
while we're seperated am i allowed to marry and divorce brittany spears?
and if the time apart doesn't help what then? again a judge or is it all lawyers? how do you legally split the property up. is that something we decide on or is there a set % or amount or what?

which leads me to the hardest part...

EMOTIONAL:
you divorce veterns, how do you/i handle having to see her for the rest of my life for the kids.
what do i say to the kids (7 and 4)...yeah i know...that is why it is so hard...not only the kids, i still have feelings for her so i know it will be like reliving the divorce each time i see her...or will it? does it get easier?

do you regret getting a divorce? i heard once that a majority of couples regret giving up.

so if God's answering your calls ask him to throw ol' lonestar a bone or a life preserver as it were. or if you have any extra positive karma lying around send it my way...i could sure use some.

thanks

It does sound as though this Thanksgiving holiday has been a bit much for you. Sorry.

Since you seem to have been getting most upset with the b*tchiness, it may be that wifey is starting to experience perimenopause, which lasts a few years before the real thing. Yes, it can start early, in the thirties. You would do well to begin reading (never too early) about female perimenopause and also male menopause. I did not hear of a male perimenopause, but maybe there is such a thing.

Also, wifey may be trying to be Superwoman, especially if she works outside . . . and not succeeding too well with a hubby who just does not operate according to a schedule for a zombie . . . or worse, for example, a scapegoat.

Another course of action, besides what you discover in your reading, would be to make some type of sound when she starts in. Perhaps all she needs is for you to go, "Beep. Beep. Beep. Beep." We women can go off on tangents unaware sometimes, and you men can go off for a walk at such times, too.

Somehow I think that you need a break--a vacation--more than a divorce. Maybe you can take up a hobby which draws you away from home and builds your self-esteem, diverting your thoughts to more realizable and self-fulfilling goals.

tsaeb, sometimes called "angel"

Divorce isn't pretty. I was married 13 years and got divorced. I should have done it sooner and I don't regret it at all. I do have a friend that wishes she stayed married. Every situation is different.

This site on divorce may give you some idea of what is in store for you. The bottom of the page has some useful articles.

I really think you need to look at everything before making such a life altering decision. Many others will be affected too. Since you still have feelings for her, there still may be hope. I recommend a book that is called Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-By-Step Guide to Helping You Decide Whether to Stay in or Get Out of Your Relationship. Really go out to the store and buy a copy. I really hope everything works out for you and your family. Good Luck.

Dan,

I don't have any huge words of wisdom, because I don't know you that well, or your situation.

But, I have been that close to divorce before. I have left him, on christmas day no less, with kids in tow.

I can say, from experience, it is worth it to work it out.

We worked our butts off, I gave in on some issues I thought were big, and turned out, really didn't matter much. I chose my battles as did he.

We went to counseling for a bit. And we took down our defensive walls (even though, maybe that wasn't easy to do...because he created mine etc...)

But we are both so happy now. For the first time in our 11 year marriage.

Please consider sticking it out.

email me privately if you need to talk about it.

Hugs and prayers
Shel

You have two choices. To get angry or to accept these things.

Now there is really a third choice, the "Relationship Killer" Choice, that is where we pretend we have accepted the issues and we roll them up into little tight balls of resentment, swallow them and at the next "injustice" cough them up to chew on them along with the new resentment we are making. Having made one ball of resentment, it becomes easer to manufacture more balls of resentment later on, the more you make the easier it becomes to manufacture resentment balls.

Now you need to ask yourself, "When I get angry over something do I call up images of those other "injustices" to aid my head of steam in anger to build up my case for divorce?"

Ironically though people claim to be divorcing for "irreconcilable differences" they actually start off the divorce paperwork over stupid silly things like which way the toilet paper is hung up on the dispenser. It is the Relationship Killer Choice they picked long, long ago starting that assembly line of tight, hot balls of resentment.

Your "Just Stuff" really isn't grounds for divorce - sure in today's world you can get a divorce easily, no one will stand in your way - Go for it. But in reality "just stuff" can be worked through, even if it only you working on the emotions that is making you think of divorce.

==================
How Divorce works:
==================

Assuming you decide to forget about attempting to make this partnership work, let me tell you how divorce works out.

Legal:

Getting around her finding out what you are up to:

First you go upstairs to the bed room, find the luggage, pull them out and throw them on the bed, opening them up. Then rummage through your drawers and closet, selecting what cloths will fit. My father, an expert on divorce having divorced four women, preferred the method of waiting for a weekend (Extra points to do it near or on one of the children's birthdays - Major points if you wait until the holiday season, the perfect timing of the divorce will leave the deepest impression on the child(ren) My Dad did my birthday once, Easter once, and the other two times Christmas time), he always started off with a screaming match (Perhaps the Holiday Turkey was a little over done? Good place to start off opening up those little balls of resentment) running up stairs and while packing up his clothes bellowing at the soon to be ex-wife all of her faults, Telling her over and over again that it is all her fault and that she is worthless and never will find another man - of course he swore like a sailor while doing this.

He always seemed to have an endless well of resentments to draw from, things that are petty (in my books) he would tick them off, pulling them out one after another screaming and using each as a weapon to underscore his "really good reason for divorce" At the end of the "hasty" clothes packing, he would tramp down the stairs, or through the house loudly, sending off pot shots, slamming the door, throwing his clothes in the car or truck (which ever he was driving at the time) and if the wife followed he would make a larger scene by bellowing outside for all to hear. Finally (much to the relief of the child(ren)) he would get in and drive off like a mad man. I distinctly recall 3 of these divorces, each went this way.

Attorneys and Courts:

After he had loudly moved out, he would start the paper work and proceed to divorce - shutting out the bank account(s) early the next Monday after he left. I know the last two divorces he closed the account leaving no money for the Ex to put food on the table let alone get an attorney - Money is power here, the more money she has to spend on attorney fees the more she will win in the end - block her sources of income at all costs, force her to rely on Pro Bono. Learn from his mistake, that Friday before the planned leaving, go to the bank and freeze the account before you come home - take an hour off of work to do it. By the time she finds out you took an hour off of work you will be sitting in a motel room enjoying the "peace and quiet".

He decided to "steal" me from my mother to punish her for being the wife who caused the break up. This is an option you have, especially if the judge decides that she gets custody - most often the mother gets custody. Of course now days its considered abduction and with the Amber Alert you mayn't get far.

You must at all costs make certain you get a pricey divorce attorney, shop around and pick the very best, you must win this divorce at all costs. S/he will draw up all of that paper work and make a strong case to demonstrate that the ex-wife is really an unfit mother - go with that, get those kids even if you don't want them - Got to make her pay you see. If you are really lucky you will get a PI with the divorce package a person who will follow and build up a strong case that the ex-wife is unfit as a human being let alone as a mother. Every percent she gets is a loss. Ideally she gets nothing, zero, zip, Nada - Aim high.

You will go before a Judge who will listen to both sides, if the ex wife is really angry (most likely she will be) she would have spent as much money as possible to get the very best and a PI. Unfortunately for you all of your friends may most likely go to her side thus they may be very willing to testify in court against you should it get to the point where custody of the children depends on your character. So what ever dirt you dig up has to be good, real good if you want custody.

I got to sit through 2 divorce cases, it is a lot of mud slinging, in pretty words. I even got to sit in the stand and answer questions so the judge could get a fair idea of my 'parents' - Then I also got a lucky Private Judge's chambers questioning - very uncomfortable and since I was certain this was all my fault I tired to answer nicely and to protect both sides. I doubt the 7 year old will be put to this treatment However it may be a possibility, if you are going for the unfit mother angle s/her may get to be questioned by the judge in private.

Money: Used to be half, but if you build up a solid case for divorce (other than irreconcilable differences) and get full custody of the kids you won't have to pay her anything, you get to keep the house and cars. Maybe a small amount to sustain her for a short while. Who ever has the better attorney wins the most, wins the kids, the house, the property. It can be great fun (I assume) this divorce thing, however it requires a very vindictive personality to win the most prizes.

Custody: Used to be always the mother got the kids, today you can pull all the stops and as long as you can prove she is unfit as a mother (usually calls upon witnesses like friends and family) you can now get the kids too. Custody makes for a special punishment in divorce cases, she or he who wins the kids can be certain the other spouse is unhappy and miserable as hell. Also whoever wins the kids gets more money. If you get the kids and she has a job, you might just gt her footing the bills for that too. Wonders of the modern age - Child Support.

Emotional:

What to say to the Kids: My father said "It's all her fault, the D**B*** did this, the D**B*** did that" In my later years during the divorce proceedings the Weekend visits were kind of "fun", Dad would pretend to have an interest in me, take me to the ball games, take me to the great places which we never went to as a family, like 6 Flags. During that time he would ask me innocently what the ex was doing.

Then when I got home the ex would pump me for information about him "Did he talk about me?" "Did he say he still loved me?" My Dad preferred the method of "dating" other women during the divorce, most often a third party would be present with us on this weekend ventures. The Fourth divorce was really fun, since he did his damnedest to pick a woman who looked very much like the soon to be ex who was an alcoholic by that time and each time I would return she had all day to drink and get all sloppy and emotional and shriek and cry and ask me why he was dating a women who looked just like her.

The 7 year old will be a great resource in the handling of your emotions, both sides will be able to communicate rather well with him/her and get a great deal of information. Unfortunately the 4 year old may not be a wealth of information. Seek out more resentments through the child(ren), it makes a stronger emotional "good point" that allows you to "see the reality" that she was really a terrible person and you are "justified" in divorcing her over her bitchiness.

As for how you "survive" a divorce, continue to tell yourself its all her fault and if you say it enough times it will be all her fault and you will be able to continue with your life comfortable in the knowledge you "did all you could". After all this divorce is over HER bitchiness, and you did no wrong - chant that long and loud and soon enough it will be a truth.

As for how the kids survive the divorce (You didn't ask but I think I just have to tell you) - actually they never do, even the 4 year old will grow up with questions, questions - unanswerable to you or the wife by the time s/he gets around to asking them because adults tend to have short memories over emotional crap, kids on the other hand fixate on minor events (like divorces) and have a long term memory over it all - If you are really lucky the 4 year old will mark the day daddy left as a hallmark of a particular holiday and develop a bitter hatred of the holiday season.

As a side bar on that, I really had big issues with the holidays, did nothing toward making my Seasonal Depression due to lack of light any better. My first two attempts at suicide took place around the holidays, usually Christmas time. My drug addiction and alcoholism worsened around the holidays too. There was about a decade of Christmases where I went around being a Scrooge. Even today I have some tightness in my stomach over the holidays. All because the holidays were really bad times in my childhood.

The 7 year old will only remember more, and it doesn't matter if both you and the ex wife say over and over, day and night in a chant "it's not your fault honey" the 7 year old will know for a fact it was their fault and that will lead to them having a huge ball of resentment for ever and ever - If s/he is lucky (by passing drugs, alcohol, bad relationships, etc) and goes right for counseling they will come to intellectually understand that it wasn't their fault, but emotionally will have that scare tissue to deal with which will affect every aspect of their life.

Am I being harsh and cold about this? Damn straight there dude. I went through 4 divorces with my father. Each and every time it was ugly, hateful wrecking the peaceful security of "home".

Divorce is ugly, full of hatred and when there are kids involved they are ALWAYS hurt the most.

The fact that you are picking the holiday season to be a bastard makes me think you are purposefully being sadistic. Over what? it's nothing sexy like adultry or such, just "stuff"....arguments used to be bitch sessions and now they're personal and they hurt.

Get over it, grow up and learn how to deal with the "stuff" - better yet go get counseling a therapist will help you deal with those "hurtful bitchy words"

You married the "bitchy lady" for some reason, seek out that reason and focus on it.

I don't give a flying rat's @$$ if she screams and bellows and calls you all manner of things, there are kids so consider their feelings matter not yours. That is the deal with parenting, once you have kids they come before you.

Happy Holidays.

David

I love you


Great post. Awful circumstances.



I agree with all of it. Watched my parents divorce too. My dad, and new step mother knew all the child psych stuff to "properly handle" the kids during a divorce. The fact is, I didn't see my dad for 15 years. This past spring he finally met my hubby and kids (11, 7, and 11 year marriage)

I know anger

I know resentment.

I know all the awful things "she" did to you, and visa versa.

Nothing is worth what you will put your kids through.

But, showing them how marriage works, how to work out conflict and how to be responsible parents will be lessons that last them a lifetime.

I do feel its appropriate for me to say these things, because I have been on both sides of this one.

I don't care how much you fight, there is no reason it can't be worked out, other than stubborness. You have to work 100% at it.

Dan --

Divorce is painful for the husband and wife, but especially for the children.

You've got lots of perspectives here. I agree with Claire's advice to read the book she's recommended.

If you still have feelings of love for your wife, my recommendation would be to see a marriage counselor. You can find a counseler in your local yellow pages, you can contact your church, the options are very accessible. Remember that it takes two to make a marriage work and there will be two sides to all the issues you face.

If you absolutely do not love your wife any more, then don't drag things out too long, it's too hard on the children; they are so perceptive.

Legal separation does come with an official court filing and it is the first step toward divorce.

My divorce was painful, but amicable. We both knew we let marital problems linger unsolved for too long, then it was simply too late to try to resolve our issues; the wallof hurt and anger was too solid between us.

I'm sorry you are experiencing this and I hope you and your family will come to the best decision for all of you.

Dan, I know exactly what you are feeling. I cannot answer you question, except to say this really sucks and is draining the life out of me.

My daughter was in kindergarten, when I fled, to my friend's empty apartment, in fear. I had two kids and 1k. My daughter is now 14. It's been a long time.

Every single time I went for the legal stuff, it really was that bad and overwhelming. Everything I own is equally owned by my husband. This equity split thing is no joke. Neither are judges and lawyers setting the rules for you.

I backed off, every time to the point that I am close to accepting this lousy marriage is something I have to live with, but I don't have to live with my husband, unless I wish to remarry, which I am not ready for, at this point in time.

My 19 year marriage is so bad that we cannot agree on terms of divorce! I guess we have something new to be stubborn about and greedy, divorce. I am paying lawyers a ton of cash, for us to disagree, costing even more money that either of us can pay.

There is nothing simple about divorce, if you really care. Some people don't. That's not me or my lousy husband. This isn't for a lot of people, which is why the continue to live separately, with separate lives and no lawyer or judge to dictate anything to my family.

It is that horrible, that depressing, and that bad. All I can suggest, do what you feel is right, for now. If you can't deal with the lawyers and judges, live separately, until you two can agree. That may never happen, like my case.

As I see it, the only reason to divorce my husband, after several legal attempts, that got way too ugly, don't bother. I'm not. I already have two teens, that my husband fathered. Our oldest is 18.

I even declined child support, for our 14 year old daughter, because I reject jail or pay up. This is allowing our children to know who they lived with and who financially supported them. Too late to be a dad now.

Understand, teens are fooled by court mandated child support as something meaningful, when it is nothing more than pay up or go to jail to a man. I do not wish this misunderstanding, my kids probably will make, "Dad helped!" Yeah, after the threat of living in a cage. Seriously!

I financially made it without him for a long time. At first, I hated my husband, to the point, I would love to see him behind bars, for not helping support his own children. Today, I have a different thought, without fury. Let our children know the truth and not deceive them with court ordered cash, straight out of his paycheck.

If my husband wants to help, when he knows there is need, help us. If he doesn't, our children will know that he is full of excuses. They will never understand their own father, if I go to court, demanding money and throw their father in jail, if he doesn't pay.

My teen kids will believe I am horrible, for throwing him to the law dogs and live like dog, in a cage, ready to be put down, since no one adopts them. Wrong answer!! Adults understand this, but kids, even teens, do not. I will not go there.

My kids need to understand reality, when they have a child. They will, in time. They lived it. What better lesson can I teach them about birth control?

You wouldn't believe how much thought, over quite a few years, I have given this topic. I do not want any lawyer or judge to make decisions for me, even if they are to my financial gain. I want my children to know reality, without law intervention. Judge you father on his actions, only.

I went to the law, with visitation. I regret it. It was part of a divorce, which I started. My husband tried to cave my face in. He went to jail leaving me shut off notices for our utilities. Our house payment was a month behind. I got a job, as soon as my face was not purple. I paid the behind bills.

I want my kids to know who tried, for them, and who didn't. The law will fool my children into thinking their father is someone that he isn't. He pays up, as he wishes, no matter what hardship I live. They will know it, in time.

I warn my kids. I tell my son that this is nothing close to being a father. I tell my daughter never to accept abuse, of any kind. They get it, with few words, only because I never let lawyers and judges decide our fate.

That is my story and my personal decision. This may not fit your situation at all. I will not divorce until the day I want to marry again. I don't see the point.

Dan, we have a common problem. Ship me an e-mail, if you want to talk to someone who understands the complexity, of this situation.

I feel I have a unique perspective on this issue. I married my wife about 16 months after she walked out on her first spouse--seeking a divorce that went through within 2-3 months because she just wanted out and wasn't interested in money. Unfortunately, her ex decided soon after getting off scot-free in the divorce, that he wanted sole custody of the four kids. So, through the time we met, married (9 months after meeting), and spent the first several years together, we and the step-kids went through hell in the legal system until my wife beat off his demand for full custody. I was able to see directly the effect of the system on her and the kids.

Now, 11 years later, I'm going through my own divorce (which my wife's ex warned me about 11 yrs. ago). It's helped me in some very important ways like: There are two sides to every story (I wish I would have listened to my wife's ex more seriously 11 yrs. ago). Now I can see why he petitioned the court for full custody after the separation and divorce. This process is bad enough on the two adults going through it, but put kids into the mix, and you find out the TRUE nature of the adults involved.

There is one immutable fact of divorce with children involved: THERE IS ALWAYS ONE SPOUSE THAT IS MORE WILLING TO USE THE KIDS FOR HIS/HER GAIN. This invariably has a profound effect on the one not willing to use the kids as they will always give in for the right thing for the children. This reminds me of a parable I remember hearing as a child. Two women came to King Solomon both claiming that the one child before the king was hers. The King's wise solution was to state that the child would be cut into two equal halves, giving one half to each woman. Immediately, one woman spoke up and told the king that she lied and was not the mother and to give the child to the other woman to spare the child's life. The king then stated to all present that the child was to be given to the mother who spoke up as she was the obvious TRUE mother. IF ONLY OUR SYSTEM WAS AS WISE AND JUST.

I believe that the best advice is that if the two of you can act like adults for the good of the children, you can work it out between the two of you and NOT involve the legal system. It will merely suck you both financially dry and, at the end, you will be surprised and disappointed (not to mention, likely extremely embittered) to find that the system has nothing to do with finding out the truth, nothing to do with justice, and will not necessarily do what is right for the children.

Grow up, bite the bullet, and do what's best for the kids (and yourselves too). There are several good books out there on "controlled separation" which discuss the way in which a separation from your spouse, tempered by rules laid down by and agreed to by the both of you, may save your marriage and will not expose your kids to the misery of the legal system (not to mention the fact when all's said and done, there will likely be no money left for their education or any other reasonable savings). In controlled separation, you two can lay down any rules that work for the two of you--but you must stick by them (i.e.-remaining faithful, sharing child-rearing tasks, etc.). The beauty is that it leaves the formal legal system and its miserable, crazy proceedings out of it.

Good Luck