My 1970 Shorter OED has a table of phonetic symbols used in the text. It shows different symbols for the short 'o' in 'got' and 'soft', and a third for the sound of the 'a' in 'what' and 'watch'.

I can't detect any difference in the way I pronounce the vowel between any of these words. Can anyone elucidate?
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12-05-02, 06:04 PM
maiku
I'm not an expert by any means on British dialectology, though I do know something about what is often called RP, that is, the pronunciation of vowels in the words you cite as usually cited in British dictionaries.

It may be that your own dialect of British English (and let me point out to those who don't know this: everybody speaks a dialect) doesn't have the RP vowels in all of these words. That could be part of your problem. But at the same time, our spelling system, with only five symbols for vowels, is woefully inadequate to the task of representing the vowels speakers of English normally produce, in any dialect.

A phonetic alphabet is needed here, and let me try to simplify it by introducing the following symbols:

Y Z ]

to replace the vowel characters "o" and "a" we use in our regular spelling. All of these are "back" vowels, and they differ only slightly in degree of height to which the tongue is raised in the back when they are articulated, and they differ also in degree of "rounding."

The vowel I think both you and I probably have in words like "watch" is the first, and this is the lowest and least rounded of them. The RP British vowel of words like "got" is slightly higher and slightly more rounded, and it is rare in America. In my dialect, we have the same vowel in "watch" and "got," and maybe you do too, though I doubt it. Elton John and HRH, for example, do not.

The third vowel, as for example in "soft" RP, is the highest and most rounded of the vowels in this group. We have it in my dialect in words like "caught" and "taught." But the British version is slightly different again, somewhat more rounded than ours, and maybe a little raised. For that kind of distinction, I'd have to add diacritics to the three primary symbols above, and I'm not about to attempt that here.

You know the play Pygmalion, I'm sure, Ewood. Do you remember Higgins' challenge to Pickering as to who could pronounce the most vowels? That's about like it really is. G.B. Shaw, besides being a first-rate dramatist, knew a lot about phonetics. I could add a lot more about that, but I'll stop here.

12-05-02, 06:29 PM
juanruiz

quote:Originally posted by Ewood27:
My 1970 Shorter OED has a table of phonetic symbols used in the text. It shows different symbols for the short 'o' in 'got' and 'soft', and a third for the sound of the 'a' in 'what' and 'watch'.

I can't detect any difference in the way I pronounce the vowel between any of these words. Can anyone elucidate?



I don't have a font for phonetic symbols, so can only approximate my pronunciation of the words you present.

I pronounce the vowels of got and watch in the way: gaht. Soft for me is sawft. What comes out wut.

12-05-02, 07:44 PM
maiku
For reference, let me repeat the three vowel symbols I used in my earlier post:

Y Z ]

JR's pronunciation agrees with my own in all respects (as nearly as I can tell), except for his rendering of "what" as "wut." I was giving what is commonly called the "citation form," whereas JR seems to be referring to the vowel in this word when it is unstressed in connected speech. His impressionistic spelling "wut" is accurate enough, I guess, given his apparent and regrettable lack of any phonetic font. This is actually close to the vowel called "schwa", written c in the IPA, and maybe also in the phonetic transcriptions you have in your dictionary.

As I said above, RP typically has a different vowel in words like "got" than it does in words like "soft," and yet another, different vowel in words like "watch." The standard American and RP vowels in "watch" are very much the same, and this is the vowel the IPA (and perhaps the dictionary you refer to) identifies as Y, as in my previous post. (If you don't have the WP Phonetic font installed on your computer, by the way, you will not see the symbol I intended. But this font is a standard one, normally shipped with all versions of Windows in 1995 and after).

The discrepancies start with words that are spelled with "o", and the pronunciation of these can vary widely, in America and in the U.K., too. Generally speaking, Americans have only the first and third of the vowels above in their speech, whereas you Brits have all three. But even in America, some dialects have the first vowel in certain words where others have the second. Or vice versa? For example, I pronounce "frog" and "caught" alike, with vowel #3 above, but my wife has vowel #1 in "frog."

12-05-02, 08:54 PM
babthrower
I say 'got' a little shorter than 'soft' but for 'what' and 'watch' I sound the 'a' identically.

I would call for Monsterquizzer at this point (since I surely don't know the answer) except that he's Scotch* and of course they have their own point of view on pronunciation.

* Just said that to bug you, MQ.

12-05-02, 10:11 PM
maiku

quote:Originally posted by babthrower:
I say 'got' a little shorter than 'soft'



It seems to me that you say almost everything you say, spearchuckstress, a little bit shorter than soft. What the blazes is 'a little shorter' supposed to mean in this context? Did you read my posts above? I've already explained, with considerable care for accuracy and detail, what is going on. MQ is, of course, welcome to add his observations (Scottish though he may be), but what, really, was the point of yours, other than to obfuscate?

12-05-02, 11:27 PM
juanruiz
I should have specified that that my vowel for "what" is indeed the schwa, as Maiku has said.
His symbol on my screen comes across as a c, when it should be an upside down e.

12-05-02, 11:35 PM
juanruiz
Ewood,

BTW, could you give me a phonetic description of how you pronounce those vowels?

12-06-02, 01:50 AM
babthrower
Maiku, you really must remember to take your cranky pills.

Juan, the trouble with those pronunciation guides is that they always say 'as in', so that if one speaks in dialect, (as we all do), the sound of a vowel has shifted in the exemplar word, too.

I'm waiting for a computerized dictionary that will do the sounds audibly for us. If it's not already available, I'm sure it soon will be.

12-06-02, 04:24 AM
Ewood27
I pronounce them all with the shortest possible 'o' sound, without a trace of either American or British drawl, e.g. 'soft', not 'sahft' or 'sorft'.

That produces got, soft, wotch and wot - sometimes hwot. 'Soft' comes out slightly longer simply because the next letter after the vowel is not a 'rat-trap' t, so the tongue does not come up to the palate to close off the vowel sound.

I hope that helps. I hadn't realised that phonetic symbols are only as definitive as one's own dialect pronunciation.

I'll re-read your posts, Maiku, when I'm fully awake, and give them the attention they deserve.

12-06-02, 04:52 PM
Ewood27
The symbols in the dictionary are all variants of 'o' with a small hook underneath, like the hook part of a question mark upside down - almost a mirror-image cedilla.

'Watch' and 'what' are a lower case 'o', 'got' is an italic lower-case 'o' and 'soft' is an italic lower-case 'o' with a grave accent (all + hook). There is a footnote that the 'soft' symbol is used to indicate local or individual variants, e.g. words such as 'salt' which can be pronounced in more than one way. I take this to mean that 'soft' can be pronounced more like 'sorft'.

Your 'schwa' symbol, the upside-down 'e', is listed in the 'obscure vowels' column as 'the general obscure vowel, invariably used in the notation of -er, -ous, -sion, -tion.' I have a feeling that's not the sound you meant.

Apart from the possible 'upper-class' drawl of 'soft', I still can't detect any real difference in my normal pronunciation of these words, and I consider myself reasonably well-spoken. I feel like an idiot repeating the same words to myself and seeing where the back of my tongue goes! Sometimes there seems to be a difference, sometimes not. Whatever difference there is is minute and I would have thought did not warrant separate symbols - but that's just my opinion of my pronunciation.

I am grateful for your help.

12-07-02, 05:37 PM
maiku

quote:Originally posted by babthrower:
I'm waiting for a computerized dictionary that will do the sounds audibly for us. If it's not already available, I'm sure it soon will be.



Guess what, babthrower? Type in "watch" or "soft" in the M-W dictionary search box at the top of the main page of this very forum, and you will find that you can hear these words pronounced (in standard Inland Northern American English) just by clicking on the little speaker symbol presented.

M-W's audio files render "watch" and "soft" just as I indicated above, that is, with the IPA vowels Y and ] respectively.

So now that KK has restored the M-W link, all of you can hear exactly what these symbols are supposed to mean with one or two mouse clicks.

Unfortunately, M-W doesn't give any audio file for the chiefly British vowel I represented above as Z, the one that is normally met in RP got, hot, not, and so on.

But if you look in the Pronunciation Guide at the bottom of the M-W page, you'll find a very detailed discussion of this and the other vowels involved. This link should take you directly to the right place.

12-07-02, 05:56 PM
Kati99
Hi, I don't know whether this helps, but I know a site where you can listen to some British pronunciations. If you'll click here you can hear "hot potato" in British English. Maybe one of the o's is the one you're looking for.

12-08-02, 01:39 PM

babthrower
Thank you for the pronunciation guide sites, maiku and Kati.

Kati, if you say 'hot potato' that way when you visit London, some one will beat you up!

Oh, wurra, wurra. I found this on maiku's site:

"This vowel, as in French patte "paw" and chat "cat," is pronounced..."

But in French Canadian, which is the accent I learned at school, the sound of a in those two words is not the same.

[This message was edited by babthrower on 12-08-02 at 01:47 PM.]

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