It sounds SOOOOOO wrong, but I've been told that it's correct!!
I say NO WAY that it's correct!
Anyone?
************************************************************************* 08-31-03, 10:03 PM gizmogram Tree...I'm with you!
AN? No way would it go with an "H"
But it does I guess....I just hate the sound of it! ************************************************************************* 08-31-03, 10:28 PM Tree Ya, giz, it sounds so silly...
Where the heck is that linguistics major (maiku) when you need him??
Wink ************************************************************************* 08-31-03, 11:06 PM maiku Right here, and reporting as ordered, mistress Tree. Smile
Think about it. Is the "h" in a word like "history" pronounced or not? In many dialects of English, it is not. It is not now pronounced in the French source histoire (though this also has a somewhat different meaning in modern French, being more like "story."
In Britain, I think the pronounced and written "n" before "history" is in fact standard, and though it is certainly less common in this country, I've often heard it here, too. Do we not also say an hour with the "n" and without the "h"?
The "rule" is that the "n" which originally belonged to the article, always, is retained when the following word begins with a vowel sound, but is elided in the case of a following consonant. Well, what exactly is an "h" sound (particularly when it is often omitted altogether? It is quite unlike any other consonant in English, and often isn't even there! Considerable variation in the form of a/an before this sound is therefore not surprising.
You know, of course, that Martha Stewart pronounces the word herb just as though it were the first part of the name Herbert. I haven't yet heard whether Martha Stewart says [an herb] or [a herb]. If the former, she would really be guilty of an offense against good English usage.
[This message was edited by maiku on 08-31-03 at 11:23 PM.] ************************************************************************* 09-01-03, 03:36 AM Ewood27 In British English, Maiku, the "an" before some "h" words is certainly still accepted as normal, even if not always used.
In everyday speech I would say "A hotel room", but in a business letter I would seek to reserve "an hotel room". I would probably talk of "an historical event" but not think it wrong if the "n" was omitted. Strangely, at the same time, "A history (e.g. of the English speaking peoples)" sounds quite correct to my ear, while "an history" would sound wrong and affected.
Offhand I can't think of any other words where "an" before an "h" word is "normal". I certainly wouldn't give someone "an hard time" or add "an herb" to a dish (over here we do pronounce the "h"). It's not just short words either. I wouldn't accept "an helium balloon".
In short, old fuddy-duddies like me do still retain the "an" before a few words - but "a" would also be perfectly acceptable.
An afterthought. Perhaps the "an" construction is acceptable when the first syllable of the "h" word is not accented. When it is stressed, the "h" acquires a harder sound and becomes a consonant, whereas an unstressed "h" is already semi-elided and can be treated as a vowel sound.
"An holistic approach" or "an Hellenic invasion" would sound quite acceptable to my British ear. ************************************************************************* 09-01-03, 04:26 PM maiku I never said, Ewood, that the form "an" was common in Britain before an "h" which is actually pronounced, but it is certainly much commoner there than here.
In addition to an hotel and an historical event, I recall seeing several other forms in writing, e.g. an hysterectomy, an harmonious relationship, an horologe. In at least two cases, this problem with what to do with aitch has given rise to competing forms of the same word, viz. hermit vs. eremite and hostler vs. ostler.
We can blame this linguistic instability, like much else, on the French, from whom we inherited the strange practice of writing down an aitch in some places where we never said it at all to begin with, as in history and hotel. ************************************************************************* 09-01-03, 05:46 PM FredPuli We do not say " an -istory".Some may say " an-istorical" though. It is possibly because to them the former seems uncomfortable but the latter does not and comes more easily.I use the hyphen to show some elision, the 'an' running into the 'ist'
It is quite likely that in the case of 'hotel' we are still conscious of the French origin of the word and still pronounce it in the French manner. It is a comparatively recent introduction and so it has been a long time in becoming fully anglicised. The form 'a hotel' is very common nowadays .
The missing H has really little to do with our understanding of etymology or a desire to preserve the French language in our midst. No, it is to do with our background and how we heard the words pronounced by others around us in our immediate society.We simply talk like our family and peer group.
There is an example in My Fair Lady of this question of H being pronounced .The flower-girl is to pass as a lady; so she must learn not to 'drop he aitches'. She is taught to recite the exercise 'In Hertford, Hereford and Hampshire hurricanes hardly happen' while clearly pronouncing each 'H'. The sad fact is that she would have sounded odd in society doing that. Why? Because really 'posh'people, those at the top, would not pronounce most of them either !( The same applied to saying '-ing' as "-in" at the end of words; she would do that but the gentlemen often would too. They did and still do go " huntin', shootin' and fishin'" and speak that way .)
There must have been many social climbers who were detected by such details. G.B.Shaw in Pygmalion, on which that musical was based,was correct in saying that the English were acutely sensitive to such nuances and clues to social origins and upbringing.I fear that we still are.
There are examples of the 'anglicising/americanising'of French words in current English. Take the new word 'restauranteur'. The word is really 'restaurateur' as in French, but somehow it has been recast into a more English form and bids fare to become seen as standard. Smile ************************************************************************* 09-01-03, 07:15 PM Tree Hmmmm the beauty of the English language appears to be its ability to change with time.
Here's some of Herman's Hermits lyrics to Henry the VIII
I'm Henry the eighth I am Henry the eighth I am, I am I got married to the widow next door She's been married seven times before And every one was "an Henry" (Henry) She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (no Sam) I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry Henry the eighth I am.
Now that's AN hysterical lyric! Wink ************************************************************************* 09-01-03, 07:40 PM maiku As Fred points out, the full anglicizing of words borrowed into English, from French or any other language, can take time. Both rouge and garage are French borrowings, for example, and the distinctive "zh" sound in rouge betrays the fact that it is a quite recent one that hasn't yet been made fully welcome.Garage is somewhat earlier, as evidenced by the fact that in British English (but not American) the stress is often shifted to the first syllable, while in both forms of the language the "zh" of the last syllable is often a much more anglicized "dg," so that in Britain it often comes out as though the word were spelled "garridge" and rhymed with "carriage."
That speakers of English now generally pronounce the "h" in hotel is not so much an anglicizing of the word as it is a mistake, though, a spelling pronunciation. So is the "h" we now have in "a history," but which some of us still don't usually have in "an historical."
I live in a part of the U.S. first visited by French explorers, and where many geographical names therefore come from that language. It is astonishing what has happened to the pronunciation of many of these. If you tried to say "Detroit" in anything like the French manner, you would be considered insane. There are no bison, nor have there ever been, in the vicinity of Buffalo, New York. This "buffalo" is, apparently, a corruption of the French beau fleuve, or "beautiful river" (the Niagara, of course). An island in one of the Great Lakes is called Bois Blanc, or "white woods." This is rendered in the local speech today as "boys blank." ************************************************************************* 09-02-03, 02:58 PM Ewood27 Maiku, I'm sorry if I came across as disagreeing with you on British usage. I was in fact confirming what you said - and then I got a bit carried away.
Tree, in the version of that song that was popular in UK (don't know who the performer was), each instance of "Henry" was sounded as "'Enery", which both fits the rhythm better and gives the song a working class/Cockney accent. Thus "Each old man was an 'Enery" trips much more easily off the tongue than "a 'Enery" would.
Regarding bison, someone told me that the difference between America and Australia is that in America a bison is an animal. In Australia you wash your hands in it. ************************************************************************* 09-02-03, 03:22 PM FredPuli Ewood and Tree, the song was made famous by the music hall star Harry Champion around 1900. He was born in Shoreditch,at the Eastern edge of the City of London . In the original lyric Henry was, apparently, written 'Henery'. The words are at:
