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Diamond
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Picture of Leppi
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Well, at the university I go to every arts and science major is required to take a foreign language. Well, I was looking through the list of classes, and they now are teaching ebonics as one of the possible foreign languages. Is that really a foreign language?
 
Posts: 3144 | Location: looking for planet earth | Registered: 06-03-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Diamond
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No. Its almost a pidgin, but it is not a foreign language.

A foreign language is an indiginous language of another country.
 
Posts: 3065 | Location: A place with palm trees and sunshine! | Registered: 03-17-03Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Diamond
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Ebonics is certainly not a pidgin.

Merriam-Webster on 'pidgin': a simplified speech used for communication between people with different languages

It may be a dialect. Merriam-Webster: 1 a : a regional variety of language distinguished by features of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation from other regional varieties and constituting together with them a single language b : one of two or more cognate languages c : a variety of a language used by the members of a group d : a variety of language whose identity is fixed by a factor other than geography (as social class)

But when is a dialect sufficiently distinct to be seen as another language? Are Spanish or Italian just dialects of Latin? It's a continuum, I guess, and a subjective judgement. Some would say, for example, that Scots is just another dialect of English, and some would insist that it's a language.

www.cal.org/ebonics

'The word "language" is also used to refer to a group of related dialects, but there are no scientific criteria for deciding when to refer to two linguistic systems as different dialects of the same language, or as different languages belonging to the same language family. There are empirical criteria for grouping ways of speaking to reflect their historical relationships, but there is an arbitrary element in deciding when to use the word "language" for representing any particular grouping.'

[This message was edited by newnickname on 11-29-03 at 12:15 AM.]
 
Posts: 8113 | Location: Canada | Registered: 06-03-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Diamond
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Did you notice that the link to the linguist quotes an Oakland teacher claiming that Ebonics is basically Swahili? That's better, stranger and subtler than it looks Smile.

Swahili is from the opposite side of Africa to the places where black slaves came from, of course, but Swahili is itself originally a 'pidgin'. It is Arabic mixed with local African languages. It comes from trading; it was the result of Arabs trading with locals just as 'pidgin', a word from a Chinese attempt at the word 'business', itself was. (There is your continuum, NNN Smile)

As a subject it rather points up the difficulty!

The real difference between 'dialect and 'language', outside linguists' usage, is simply political. Compare: Scots is a dialect, a version , of English spoken in the Lowlands. With modern Scots nationalism some declared it a language. The Scots have a language, Gaelic,but the politicians and nearly everyone else cannot speak or understand it. The Welsh speak Welsh English but don't call that a language. Reason? They have Welsh, a Celtic language, and most either speak or understand it, politicians included, so their nationalism resulted in all road signs and Government documents in both languages and no arguments.

A dialect is only a language when its structure,the grammar and syntax , is different from its ancestor's ,as is the much greater part of the vocabulary. Italian has none of the structure, grammar or syntax, of Latin, nor the vocabulary.

It does not qualify as a separate language from English does it, unless a) its words are not merely English words written as locals pronunce them b) it does not follow the grammar or syntax of English c) a whole book, the Bible or a long novel written in it is not recognisable as English nor comprehensible by English speakers ?

I can write sentences in Norfolk dialect which are incomprehensible to others ( heck, I do that with English Big Grin!) but not a text of serious length. Passages from the scriptures written in Geordie or Scots are still recognisable and understood as English yet.

To a degree we have this problem here. It is met by teaching children to write and use standard English. Teachers may even, being local, teach using some dialect .Nobody seeks to outlaw Geordie or Norfolk dialects but then nobody yet has tried to unify Newcastle or the county in East Anglia as a separate race or nation.
 
Posts: 8680 | Location: Newmarket, UK/ Antibes, S.France | Registered: 07-14-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Diamond
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American universities are notoriously PC, yafa.
 
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Ebonics is as much a language as Pig Latin, with almost as few rules.
 
Posts: 17506 | Location: Lincoln Place, Granite City, IL, USA | Registered: 06-03-02Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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