There are several very perceptive and knowledgeable users of British English here, so maybe they can enlighten me on the following.

As an adverbial particle, possibly also as what some would want to call a preposition, I've noticed in any number of popular novels by British writers published recently here in the colonies that there is what strikes me as a kind of free variation between round and around. Except in certain kinds of country and western songs, we Americans always have around in these cases. For us, round is an adjective, only, and in this kind of case our usage agrees.

Part of the problem may be due to American editors who don't pay very close attention and change an original round to around sort of at whim. Is there, though, a difference in the syntactic or semantic contexts in which, in the U.K., these two are used, and can you give me a rule describing the difference?

Don't trifle with me or with the English language, please, if you think you have an answer. I'm prepared to show you in advance, with examples from Dick Francis, P.D. James, Ruth Rendell and others, why this question is far from obvious.
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11-25-02, 09:03 PM
juanruiz
Country-Western? hey man, you forget the Beach Boys? "Round, round, get around, I get around..."
Cowabunga, dude!

11-25-02, 09:29 PM
sonnet26
Don't make no nevuh mind to me...'round midnight, I likes to go 'round to da honky tonks, and go a round wif da boyz.

Je pardons...perpetual smart aleck here.

11-25-02, 10:09 PM
newnickname
(Adapted from Michael Swan's 'Practical English Usage')

- British English: 'round' is used as a preposition of place or movement, describing a circle or curve. 'We sat round the table' 'Go round the corner'.

'Round' is also used for going to most parts of a place, or for sharing with most people. 'We went round the old town' 'Share the cake round everyone'.

'Around' (or 'about') are used for vague places or movements (not necessarily circular). 'Running around' 'Sitting about'.

'About' also means 'approximately'. 'We met at about eight.'

American English: 'About' means only 'approximately'. 'Around' is used in all the other situations described above. -

It's possible that the American 'around' has crept (back?) into British English. It doesn't sound like an outrageous Americanism, and may pass unremarked by authors and editors.

11-26-02, 08:11 AM
Fourbrick
What about a "round" in boxing. "he lasted for three rounds".

11-26-02, 08:52 AM
maiku
In "a round of boxing," round is a noun, hence not what I was talking about.

Notice that this is also the case with Sonnet's third example of round above. The other two examples Sonnet has spelled, significantly, 'round, the apostrophe indicating clearly that this is just a folksy kind of way of spelling the American word around, not the British word round at all. In fact, to use an expression babthrower has claimed elsewhere (cf. under "Word Rot") not to see any sense in, these are the very kinds of "exceptions" which prove the rule: American English doesn't use the word "round" the way British English does.

Nnn's post supports that part wholly. I don't think the passage nnn cited is a very good explication of the British usage, however.

(1) I've often seen "round" used where there was no suggestion of any movement in a circle or even a curved path. Lord Peter Wimsey, for example, often says things like "I'll pop round to see you, then, at eight pip emma," where there is no thought of his taking anything like a circuitous route. In fact, if the voice on the other end of the phone says, "But it's urgent, Lord Peter! I need to see you immediately," Lord Peter would not contradict himself by replying, "Righto, then, I'll pop straight round to see you."

(2) The notion of "vague" movement is entirely too vague as far as syntactic analysis goes. And I can't even conceive of what a vague place might be. The Greeks thought, perhaps, that the shades in Hades were themselves sort of vague, but Hades was still a definite place.

Juan Ruiz, finally, ought to know better than citing Beach Boys songs as examples of real English, American or otherwise. razz

11-26-02, 09:37 AM
newnickname
How about...

'Round' suggests an orderly and purposeful, but not straight, movement or arrangement. 'Tarzan swings round the tree' - Tarzan passes by the tree in a graceful arc, or Tarzan has attached a rope to the top of the tree and is circling it, pretending he's at the fair.

Lord Peter, in this case, is thinking of Britain's mediaeval street plans, and knows it's impossible to visit someone by travelling in a straight line. 'Straight' in your example means 'straight away'; he won't stop for a cup of tea first.

'Around' suggests random or purposeless movement or arrangement. 'Tarzan swings around the tree' - Tarzan swings at random from branch to branch in the tree.

A vague arrangement (a better word, maybe, than 'place') would be 'Tarzan and his family were sitting around in the jungle.' (You can't picture exactly where they were sitting in relation to one another.) 'Tarzan and his family were sitting round the dinner table' would be orderly. (Assuming Tarzan was behaving himself.)

Alternatively, it's possible that 'round' is simply a less formal version of 'around', and they mean the same. 'Round' would be more common in spoken English, which is why it appears in your example.

11-26-02, 10:06 AM
maiku
I like your restatement much better, nnn. Thanks. I'm sure you're on the right track with your purposeful/aimless and orderly/random distinctions. You give your location as Canada, though. Even if you came there from the U.K. only a few days ago, how do I know your British English hasn't already been thoroughly corrupted by the Canadians (who speak a little more like the Brits than we do, usually, but still speak more like us Americans)?

More or less just kidding, there. But I am skeptical about what you suggest may have been in Lord Peter's mind. I think he would have used "pop round" even if he had been speaking to an American friend from his hotel in midtown Manhattan, where the streets are all straight as strings, and to which place he had traveled to...well, you know the story. cool

11-26-02, 11:02 AM
chanceygardner
My view is that round/around are used in much the same way. When I steered my yacht around the Cape of Good Hope, was I being vague or directionless?

11-26-02, 05:01 PM
Ewood27
If you say you steered your yacht round the Cape I would assume you were on the water. If you steered it around the Cape I immediately picture it as being on a trailer behind a tow vehicle!

I suggest that the distinction is not absolute, but, as has been postulated, 'round' is more orderly and purposeful, while 'around' is more vague - in very broad terms. You sit round a table, but stand around a street corner.

As for Lord Peter (or anyone else) 'popping round' or 'straight round', I've always taken that as an acknowledgement that one has to turn corners to leave the house, turn along the street, turn into the other house etc. On the other hand it's equally common to hear 'I'll pop over later'.

'Around' is also used to mean 'approximately' - 'I'll be there around eight' - and 'round about' can mean 'approximately' or a very vague 'generally in the area'. 'Where've you been?' 'Oh, just round about.' Not to be confused with 'roundabout', noun.

It's all very confusing. If you can make sense of it you deserve a round of applause!

11-26-02, 05:53 PM
maiku
Your comment, Ewood, about the difference between steering your yacht "round" as opposed to "around" Cape Horn, was the most enlightening one yet.

Chancey's original sentence is unobjectionable in American English in the meaning he had in mind and for that which you assign (I assume knowledgeably and correctly, thank you) to "round Cape Horn" in British English. To get your meaning of "around Cape Horn," we Americans would probably have to say something like "I steered my yacht all around Cape Horn."

Hold the applause, but here is the principle that begins to emerge: "around" is preferred in British English (and required in any case in American English) as an adverbial particle (that is, not a preposition which takes a definite place-noun as an object). This accounts for nnn's examples. In American English, too, we say things like "Tarzan just loafed around (in the jungle or elsewhere). Here, "around" is a particle, not a preposition at all. No wonder, then, that it seemed to nnn to connote a certain lack of direction, or a vagueness of place. Tarzan's loafing around (adverb) takes place somewhere in (locative) the jungle, but not simultaneously everywhere in different places so that it "surrounds" the jungle. The distinction is much like that between accusative and dative cases in other languages, and maybe it's a shame English makes this distinction only so covertly anymore.

In any case, British and American usage are quite in agreement to that extent.

What I still don't know is why, in the novels of Dick Francis, say, this British distinction seems to have disappeared, or to be used almost randomly. Perhaps only because, as I conjectured, American editors are ignorant of it, or you Brits are beginning to adopt the American use of "around" yourselves, without thinking how we've subverted your language.

You can applaud now, if you like. But of course we still haven't gotten to the bottom of it. cool

11-27-02, 02:46 AM
Ewood27
I suspect this is just one of many examples of a smallish distinction becoming more blurred, especially among those younger than myself, for three reasons.

1. The spread of American usage into worldwide English.

2. Careless use of either word for the other.

3. Using whichever comes easier off the tongue to fit the rhythm of the sentence.

Perhaps there is also some blame to be attached to American editors, but not too much. The distinction is still very slight and blurred to me, an Englishman who has lived in England all his life and whose reading matter is not edited by Americans!

If you really want a US/UK difference, try 'this' and 'that'. I always smile when someone in a movie says 'Who is this?' down the phone. In the UK we know who 'this' is - we want to know who 'that' is!

11-27-02, 08:52 PM
maiku
That (or should I say this?) is a very amusing example, Ewood.

You do understand, I hope, that we Americans would consider it nonsense, and probably rude as well, to ask a person to whom we're speaking directly on (not "down") the phone, "Who is that?"

Our usage is far more logical than yours. If a third party interrupted our conversation, we might then, and only then, say something like "who was that?" The person we're speaking to directly is, for us, proximate, not distant (even by long distance telephone). So we not only laugh at your British usage, we scorn it (or fail to understand it, more likely).

Take that! (or should I say take this?).

Thanks to your input in particular, Ewood, I think I have the answer I was looking for about "round" vs. "around".

Now when are you going to acknowledge you were wrong about North Riding? smile

11-28-02, 01:49 AM
chanceygardner
Compare the following link for use of round/around in a BE article.

round/around

Round/around can be used in much the same way in most circumstances, though round does tend to predominate in BE. Try the Cambridge University online dictionary
here.

11-28-02, 04:07 AM
Ewood27
Excellent links. The trouble is that, as with so much in the way of language usage, I know how I use the words, but putting it into 'rules' is difficult. I think I'll skate round the problem by just going around as I always have.

Maiku - Yes, you were right on North Riding, except when you called it 'northriding'. I knew it had an ancient root that had become changed. I was perhaps one thridding right, which is not to say that you were wrong. Thank you for your explanation.

As for this and that, to us 'this' is the speaker (me). 'That' is the disembodied voice coming from the earpiece (my daughter, say). It might be considered rather sharp to say, 'Who is that?' but not rude. The polite way is, 'Who am I speaking to?'. I know it should be 'to whom', but this is the 21st Century. We know what you mean by 'Who is this?'. It just sounds a bit funny.

What a boring old world it would be if we all used the language exactly the same and nothing changed!

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