I am in a little debate about greeting women in English using Ms. vs. Mrs. I say to use Ms. for all women, my friend says this:
"During the 1980s most universities in the U.S. started programs requiring the use of so-called inclusive language which among other things condemn the reference to marital status when greeting women. The current accepted practice is to greet all women as Mrs. unless Dr. or some military or professional title is appropriate. The title Ms. is still accepted in most cases for school children or debutante activities."
I have never hear of such a thing that he says. Who´s right? **************************************************************** 07-10-02, 11:04 AM referenth
quote:Originally posted by hassia: The current accepted practice is to greet all women as Mrs. unless Dr. or some military or professional title is appropriate. The title Ms. is still accepted in most cases for school children or debutante activities.
I'm an American, who's been through college and grad school, and I've never heard of such a thing either.
I would say "the current accepted practice" is to refer to all women as "Ms" (unless "Dr.," etc.). Automatically referring to a woman as "Mrs." is a bizarre assumption of marital status.
Perhaps your friend is thinking of a German practice. I think my German professor said women over 30 (or 25?) were "Frau" and not "Fräulein" even if unmarried. But maybe that was French "Madame" over "Mademoiselle" for women over 30.
07-10-02, 11:52 AM Kati99 Fräulein isn't used anymore at all, except when people are kidding (then they sometimes address a girl or young woman as Fräulein). But if you'd use it in a formal situation it would be considered insulting. It's nobody's business whether a woman is married or not and it doesn't matter either. Frau means woman while Fräulein means little woman. For men there's just one word, there's nothing like "little man". So why should there be two terms for women?
07-10-02, 02:47 PM maiku In the early 80's, when I was a guest lecturer at the Freie Univesität in Berlin, I got my ears pinned back for addressing some of the young, unmarried women in my class as Fräulein, though up until that time I would have sworn that "Frau" meant Mrs. as well as woman.
The times are indeed achangin'.
My problem with the title Ms. is that there is no clearly acceptable way to pronounce it. More or less by decree, it was decided that it should be pronounced miz. The problem with that is that throughout much of the USA miz is the way the title Mrs. is pronounced. Naturally, I avoid trying to pronounce this made-up title whenever I can.
Its use in writing is another story. In letters, it is always correct to answer a woman by referring to her with the same title she uses for herself. A woman who signs herself Mrs. so-and-so has the right to be addressed, in reply, with the title she has chosen herself. When you don't know a woman's marital status, then the acceptable practice these days is to use Ms.
I agree with Kati99 that it is nobody's business whether a woman is married or not. I wonder, though, why the women's movement doesn't have enough insight into language to urge the adoption of alternative titles: they seem to be ignorant of the fact that Mrs., Miss, and Ms. are all forms derived in one way or another from the masculine form Mister.
[This message was edited by maiku on 07-10-02 at 02:56 PM.]
07-10-02, 08:37 PM aminator2002 I find that people do not use these titles any more. Exceptions: When telephone solicitors call they ask for Mrs.
When anyone else addresses me with one of these ridiculous terms they use Ms.
I think Mrs. is just flat out wrong unless you are married.
07-11-02, 11:47 AM Elexina I think that your friend is wrong. You should never use "Mrs" unless you are absolutely sure that the woman is married. You don't want to assume anything that might be offensive. And what if she is married but didn't change her name? She would not be a "Mrs" then. We cannot just assume that a woman is married. I would be offended if someone called me "Mrs" at this point in my life, especially since I am not one! "Miss" is not generally appropriate, either, unless you are refering to a young girl. But no one really uses "Miss." It is most appropriate to use "Ms" because that makes no assumptions of age, martial status, etc. It is just generic for all women. *That* is the current accepted practice.
07-11-02, 12:33 PM Kati99 But how do you pronounce "Ms"? Like Miss or like Mrs?
07-11-02, 01:07 PM deeptread I have always pronounced it "Mizz"
however,
Ms. also Ms Pronunciation Key (miz) n. pl. Mses., also Mses also Mss. or Mss (mzz) Used as a courtesy title before the surname or full name of a woman or girl: Ms. Doe; Ms. Jane Doe. Used in informal titles for a woman to indicate the epitomizing of an attribute or activity: Ms. Fashionable; Ms. Volleyball.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Blend of Miss, and Mrs..] Usage Note: Many of us think of Ms. or Ms as a fairly recent invention of the women's movement, but in fact the term was first suggested as a convenience to writers of business letters by such publications as the Bulletin of the American Business Writing Association (1951) and The Simplified Letter, issued by the National Office Management Association (1952). Ms. is now widely used in both professional and social contexts. As a courtesy title Ms. serves exactly the same function that Mr. does for men, and like Mr. it may be used with a last name alone or with a full name. Furthermore, Ms. is correct regardless of a woman's marital status, thus relegating that information to the realm of private life, where many feel it belongs anyway. Some women prefer Miss or Mrs., however, and courtesy requires that their wishes be respected.
07-11-02, 08:12 PM Kate Wood My Mother is divorced but she kept the surname. Not the Mrs. though, so now she's a Ms. Rather than going back to a Miss. I always thought Ms. was a kind of half-way point for Mrs and Miss.
And what about Master? Didn't that used to mean young man?
07-15-02, 09:44 AM hassia Kate, master is a polite title usually (at least as far as i have ever seen) given to a man from his servant. i don´t think it only means a young boy. as for your mother taking ms. i find that it ok. miss implies that she has never been married and whereas ms. is unassuming. Kati, it´s pronounced miss as in to miss the train. miss is pronounced mizz, like a bee´s buzz.
07-15-02, 12:02 PM referenth
quote:Originally posted by hassia:
Kati, it's [Ms.] pronounced miss as in to miss the train. miss is pronounced mizz, like a bee´s buzz.
That's backwards, at least for Standard American English. "Ms." is [mI:z] (with a slightly longer vowel because of the voiced /z/), and "Miss" is [mIs] (the same as "to miss the train").
07-16-02, 02:44 AM hassia sorry, Kati, i suppose that referenth is right.
07-16-02, 05:06 AM NCcichlid When addressing a Mrs. she should be addressed as Mrs. John Doe. This etiquette is appropriate for both the verbal and the written greeting.
If unsure of the maritial status, use the Ms. Jane Doe rule.
If addressing both, use Mr. and Mrs. John Doe, not Mr. and Mrs. John and Jane Doe.
NC
07-16-02, 02:38 PM Alec Cawley These things change, both with time and space. Both Mrs and Miss are abbreviatioons of Mistress, with Mrs coming first and Miss only later. In eighteenth century britain., any woman over thirty or so was automatically Mrs, whether married or not.
07-18-02, 03:25 AM babthrower Ms is pronounced miz. Mrs is correctly pronounced misses. Miss is pronounced miss.
That some people might confuse Ms and Mrs when they hear it is not really a problem, is it?
Anyone who pronounces Ms and Mrs the same will not take offense if you call her Ms.
If you call a Mrs 'misses' she will know you mean Mrs, she will just think you are being overly fussy with your pronunciation. After all, even people who pronounce Mrs 'miz' have seen television and movies, and know many people pronounce it 'misses'.
The use of 'mistress' to address a woman is archaic unless you pay the rent on her apartment.
07-18-02, 02:04 PM nerdqueendeluxe Am I right with this? In the USA, a widow is always Mrs "Robert Brown" when you are sending correspondence. My elderly mother and her friends expect "old school" manners and do not want to be addressed as Mrs "Mary Brown". Likewise, they do not want to be addressed by their first name only at the doctor's office.
07-18-02, 02:22 PM babthrower It is correct but a little old fashioned for the widow to use her husband's name ' Mrs John Doe ' -as long as she lives.
The beauty of Ms is that it's always correct, no matter what the marital state of the woman who is addressed.
First names in the doctor's office are bad manners.
However, if one has an objection to being called Ms or by one's first name, the correction should be made gently: "Please call me Mrs (pronounced misses) Doe."
Two rudenesses don't make a right.
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